The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Nagashsnee]

  On 12/5/2023 at 8:27 AM, System Sound said:

This is why I hate this book. It's completely pointless and is there just to milk more money...

Expand  

This is just my theory, it is very very likely wrong, but i wanted to get other peoples views on it.  More likely

  Reveal hidden contents

1)No one cared to check about the sword.

2)Abnett does not like the light/highlander deaths and did not do it. 

3) 1+2 combined. 

4) They ran out of space (lol i know) and made it happen in the next book.

5) I am reading too much into it. 

 

 

[DarkChaplain]

Yeah, I fear it's a matter of oversights / lack of consistency and respect for prior works' established elements (not anything new for Abnett's entries, at any rate).

 

However, I hope it's as you theorize. It's also the expectation it set up for me.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

He ends the novel on a brutal, "clean" kill, shutting Sanguinius down entirely.... but we see neither the aftermath nor reactions to it. It's like he's ending on a shock moment at how callous Horus is being there, and how easily Sanguinius was overpowered, but this comes at the end of Horus playing timey wimey, including with Ferrus Manus' specter. Horus isn't nearly spiteful enough here.

 

While I still believe that Ferrus is a mirage, not actually the man himself, it might be sensible to think that the "real" soul of Ferrus in the warp is crying out in agony as his form gets puppeteered, which might be what leads to the out-of-sync lip movements and all.

 

However, most importantly, this establishes the possibility of Horus tearing souls of the dead back into the here-and-now (or rather, The End and the Death, where the clocks have stopped and time and space became meaningless), and subjecting them to a momentary eternity of torment.

 

If Horus really is dominating dimensions now aboard the Vengeful Spirit, and he's always wanted Sanguinius to stand with him - but previously, before Molech, knew it wasn't likely to happen, hence Signus, which Erebus balls'd up for him - and especially here it became obvious that he's trying very hard to convince the angel to turn.

It'd be pretty much like Horus to change strategy here, from presenting the open hand, trying to talk and manipulate Sanguinius into submitting to him, to unleashing his brutality and torturing him to breaking point.

 

If there's one thing that Sanguinius has made core of his role at this juncture, it's the moment of his death. Both the defiance to it, making away with Horus, OR his death having meaning, leading to a loyalist victory. He wants to settle the matter, to pave the road to the Emperor's survival and the salvation of humanity.

 

Let Horus deny him that by putting him through an eternal death instead. If Dorn can be stranded in a sodding desert for centuries, or millennia, and Valdor experiences a volume and a half as barely a minute long (how I envy him), then surely, Sanguinius can be put through an eternity of dying, of seeing his death's meaning slip away, and even glimpses of the future his sons are heading towards. Make him suffer to restore the tragedy that has been stripped from this moment. Break the angel into dooming his sons and reinforce the horror of the Black Rage.

 

[System Sound]

Nagashsnee and DarkChaplain I HOPE you both are right about this and its not just Annett ignoring everything that was already written about Sangy and Blood Angels so far...

[EverythingIsGreat]

In earlier lore, Horus savaged Sanguinius so badly that the Emperor witnessing either the savaging itself or Sang's ravaged remains, loses any compunction he may have had and completely annihilates Horus (it is stated elsewhere that the Anathema does not just banish demons, it extinguishes them).

 

If that is still the case, there's a chance Abnett is having Horus wait for the Emperor to get there before he starts on Sang again. Why? Abnett can pick among a number of plausible reasons.

 

Or, Sang is not coming back, and all the previous lore is shown to be a myth, propagated wilfully or unwillfully. Like all the instances where GW states, "It is said that So-and-so did Such-and- such" or an author has a character mouthing a statement. If readers or gamers accept that as in-universe truth, the joke may be on them.

 

So in that case, TEATD is unique, as it could be what actually happened. Described hazily and momentarily before it is covered by the mythology again.

 

Everybody wins, and Abnett/GW can have it both ways.

 

PS It is interesting that both superhuman principals almost to the end, exhibit fundamental baseline-human psychological traits, eg. thinking that they can "turn" the other, or going to great lengths in making them an offer. Caught in the cycle of hope and despair like everybody else.

[DukeLeto69]

So maybe like the warp really did do it!

[Lord_Caerolion]

  Reveal hidden contents

In regards to Ferrus, I interpreted it as being Ferrus’ soul, but being forced into following a particular “script” by Horus.

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

  On 12/5/2023 at 8:33 PM, DukeLeto69 said:

So maybe like the warp really did do it!

Expand  

 

Deus Ex Machina

 

As a plot device, it has been around for a minute

Edited December 5, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
duh

[Marshal Rohr]

I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void?

[Scribe]

  On 12/7/2023 at 3:08 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void?

Expand  

 

Pretty sure Haley is pushing that as well in his series.

[Marshal Rohr]

Very odd

[Karhedron]

I did like the nod to the Starchild lore. Haley's DI trilogy is pretty ambiguous about the status of the Emperor's divinity and I suspect that is deliberate. The opening of the Great Rift has disrupted the status-quo in ways that the forces of Chaos may not have expected. Whether the Emperor is becoming a god or the Starchild is starting to awaken is not clear. What we do know is that there is now a powerful entity in the Warp that seems to be on the Imperium's side. While its nature is still open to speculation, it is powerful enough to destroy part of Nurgle's garden meaning it can strike at the Chaos Gods on their own turf and that in itself is interesting.

 

Of course TEATD2 also raises the risk that what is awakening could be the Dark King 2 (electric boogaloo).

[Taliesin]

  On 12/7/2023 at 3:08 PM, Marshal Rohr said:

I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void?

Expand  

 

Can you or someone else explain what exactly this book says about the Star child, perhaps quote the text?

[Marshal Rohr]

The emperor casts off a part of himself into the void where it will grow, etc etc. It is bright for a moment like a child Star, etc etc. 

[Preliminary Bombardment]

Well that's me finished. There's probably 10 chapters in there worth reading.

 

Not really looking forward to the final one now to be honest. No artist should get 100% creative freedom.

[TrevorLoLz]

The Highlander death didn't occur in Echoes of Eternity either, from memory. The World Eaters still went berserk after Sanguinius ripped Angron's brain out, but no 80's release of energy like there was with Ferrus, Alpharius, Mortarion (?), etc. There wasn't with Magnus either.

[Nagashsnee]

  On 12/9/2023 at 8:34 AM, TrevorLoLz said:

The Highlander death didn't occur in Echoes of Eternity either, from memory. The World Eaters still went berserk after Sanguinius ripped Angron's brain out, but no 80's release of energy like there was with Ferrus, Alpharius, Mortarion (?), etc. There wasn't with Magnus either.

Expand  

 

For Angron:

  Reveal hidden contents

'Warpfire flares from the cracks in the beast’s deforming skull. ' and 'The daemon’s head bursts. It’s a detonation, a release of internal pressure like pus from a squeezed cyst:'

 To me was the highlander moment.  

 

As for magnus which time we talking haha. Magnus is weird cause he kinda dies in pieces. You have his 'dying' on prospero when he shatters into parts. His 'mortal' death in furry of magnus, him getting banished in Echoes. Plus 2-3 40k deaths which i dont really count. So its kinda of unique case i feel.   For me his 'death' happens in fury of magnus when he gives himself over to chaos fully and finally and:

  Reveal hidden contents

'The last sliver within the Crimson King that clung to the material realm was finally obliterated, his body willingly given to the infernal masters in the darkness of the warp. He looked down upon the Salamanders, his eye pulsing with the sickly blue light of cancerous stars, poisoned light from worlds entirely given over to the Neverborn.'

 

Which i think is the part where magnus the primarch 'dies' and magnus the deamon primarch is born if that makes sense? Tho i 100% will state again Magnus is a very weird case.  The highlander death for me is tried to primarchs dying in the mortal sense, rather then deamon primarchs.  So angron being blammed but then re forming on the spot is not really a death. Sanguinius is the first to actually 'kill' angron its the first time his souls is actually forced from the mortal plane and ascends into the warp. Likewise Magnus in fury of Magnus or Mortarion in Warhawk.  In each case symbolically its the end of their mortal experience and the start of their full on ascension into etheral warp based beings.  Tho i know this is 100% my view on the subject. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Nagashsnee]

I am going thru know no fear again as  i paint legions imperialis and i hit upon something to do with Sanguinius, 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

So for anyone who doesnt know Know no Fear is by the same author as these book, Abnett, it introduces the perpetuals, and involves Ol being sent on a vision quest of the end of the heresy. Where 'There is an angel dead on the floor. On the deck. The angel is a giant. He was beautiful. His sword is broken.'. 

 

To me there is no way Abnett cared enough and knew enough THEN to get this right and F it up now.  To me this makes me truly believe that the time warping death/torture of Sanguinius is just beginning. 

 

Or Abnett has actually gotten WORSE at this as time goes on, as has BL.  And they both utterly utterly failed to reference even his own prior portrayals of the scene. But for all my dislike of this book i cant see it, i cant see him overlooking this. 

 

Pulls tinfoil ever tighter. 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Scribe]

Dont OD on that hopium Nagashsnee. ;)

 

I think it was just a miss.

[Karhedron]

Were people seriously unhappy with Sangy's death scene? I thought it was great. Exactly as I imagined it would play out ever since the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. Sangy gave it his all and fought a good fight but was not match for warp-juiced Horus. Much better than Russ hesitating in Wolfsbane. Granted we haven't seen the effect of his death on the BAs on Terra but it was literally in the last chapter of the book.

 

I wasn't too fussed by the lack of a "Highlander effect". Ferus got decapitated by surprise and Alpharius exploded after Dorn cut through the power pack of his armour. Sangy has been fighting continuously for 6-7 months at this point and is fresh from a tag-team showdown with Ka Bandha and Angron. His psychic batteries are pretty much running on fumes by this point.

[DarkChaplain]

Alpharius is a very special case in that he's still technically alive, being a twin-soul being. Omegon knew, could tell, but the full "being" hasn't died yet.

[Nagashsnee]

  On 12/14/2023 at 4:34 PM, Karhedron said:

Were people seriously unhappy with Sangy's death scene? I thought it was great. Exactly as I imagined it would play out ever since the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. Sangy gave it his all and fought a good fight but was not match for warp-juiced Horus. Much better than Russ hesitating in Wolfsbane. Granted we haven't seen the effect of his death on the BAs on Terra but it was literally in the last chapter of the book.

 

I wasn't too fussed by the lack of a "Highlander effect". Ferus got decapitated by surprise and Alpharius exploded after Dorn cut through the power pack of his armour. Sangy has been fighting continuously for 6-7 months at this point and is fresh from a tag-team showdown with Ka Bandha and Angron. His psychic batteries are pretty much running on fumes by this point.

Expand  

Its was fine, honestly i was so scared of a twist anything normal would have been fine. But some of it doesn't add up, primarily his sword being broken is something that has been laid down in the lore and re enforced again and again and again. Its shards have rules in the game, its gets refrenced in codexs and books edit even the Emperor vs Horus art has it broken in 2 versions or not in view in the rest. Even by Abnett himself in his earlier heresy books!  

 

Some things like the chink is the armor was always murky and could go either way depending on the authors preference. But things like the sword are either done for a reason, or its a f up. And if its the second case then for me it tars the whole scene. It is indicative of an author and editor who did not do the bear minimum of research.  Or worse of all, they knew, remembered and decided to retcon it for no real reason going against tons of lore on the subject, several black library books and even in this instance in game rules. At which point you gotta wonder why they are even writing warhammer books (and why i dont believe this is the case). 

 

So i choose as Scribe says to take copium, and argue its not an oversight/mistake, and instead try to think why it would be done.  Tho i know there is a school of people who 'dont care about what someone wrote in the past these book ARE the heresy now'. But honestly this view is so alien to me i try not to engage them. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[EverythingIsGreat]

  On 12/14/2023 at 1:13 PM, Nagashsnee said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So for anyone who doesnt know Know no Fear is by the same author as these book, Abnett, it introduces the perpetuals, and involves Ol being sent on a vision quest of the end of the heresy. Where 'There is an angel dead on the floor. On the deck. The angel is a giant. He was beautiful. His sword is broken.'. 

 

Expand  

IIRC, the notion of perpetuals were first introduced in Legion. (Though the lore's much earlier Sensei are immortals too, and perhaps Abnett's prototype). As for the broken blade, visions and quests should not be viewed as in-universe "facts". Real-world, they could just as easily serve as author/editor plot markers, that may be amended without too much fussing about it.

Edited December 14, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[DukeLeto69]

  On 12/14/2023 at 5:05 PM, Nagashsnee said:

Its was fine, honestly i was so scared of a twist anything normal would have been fine. But some of it doesn't add up, primarily his sword being broken is something that has been laid down in the lore and re enforced again and again and again. Its shards have rules in the game, its gets refrenced in codexs and books edit even the Emperor vs Horus art has it broken in 2 versions or not in view in the rest. Even by Abnett himself in his earlier heresy books!  

 

Some things like the chink is the armor was always murky and could go either way depending on the authors preference. But things like the sword are either done for a reason, or its a f up. And if its the second case then for me it tars the whole scene. It is indicative of an author and editor who did not do the bear minimum of research.  Or worse of all, they knew, remembered and decided to retcon it for no real reason going against tons of lore on the subject, several black library books and even in this instance in game rules. At which point you gotta wonder why they are even writing warhammer books (and why i dont believe this is the case). 

 

So i choose as Scribe says to take copium, and argue its not an oversight/mistake, and instead try to think why it would be done.  Tho i know there is a school of people who 'dont care about what someone wrote in the past these book ARE the heresy now'. But honestly this view is so alien to me i try not to engage them. 

 

 

Expand  

I’m sorta one those “it doesn’t really matter what was written before” as I do not see detail within the lore as sacrosanct. For me the overarching themes and big beats are what establishes the lore as being uniquely the 40k universe (ie the emperor has a load of “sons” some of who remained loyal and some who didn’t) but a sword breaking or some such is a bit meh! So what?

[Karhedron]

I agree. Some people were speculating weird stuff such as Sangy turning or even killing Horus himself and the Emp getting crippled putting rabid Sanguinius down. That would have seriously annoyed me but trivial details like his sword not breaking "on screen" are too small for me to lose sleep over.

[Lord_Caerolion]

For me, it’s more that it’s not quite seeming to be the sort of thing that causes such profound psychic shockwaves that it triggers the Black Rage. I mean, yeah, he got killed, but not exactly “this death shall shape the very soul of his Legion for thousands of years hence”.