The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

@EverythingIsGreat

 

In this case, I believe there is some justification.

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1. He was rendered somewhat insane.

2. He could not handle the power he was given.

3. There was always a part resisting the Gods.

 

Is it satisfactory? I dont know, its an individual thing, but there is at least reason to suspend disbelief.

[Roomsky]

If you're still bothering to follow this thread, tgcleric:

 

I get where you're coming from. Abnett's writing is a treat. I wish he had written the entire series. He didn't write my favourite Heresy novel, nor what I think is the best Heresy novel - and still I wish he had written the whole thing. 

 

No one can follow-up Abnett's work without hollowing out his characters. Ditto most of his ideas. What he communicates about a character with minimal pagetime is unmatched. His balancing act of character fragility and lethality make everybody read as vulnerable yet eminently competent. Abnett's Heresy would have given every legion creative, interesting, and frankly badass moments and developments in a way that wouldn't have required anywhere near 60+ books to give everyone their time in the sun. 

 

But there's a time and place for reinventing the wheel, and the capper to a 60+ book multi-author series ain't it. I'm not going to deny how absolutely stunning TEATD is at times. Expectations blown thoroughly out of the water, some of these passages are the best I've read in anything, ever. But when other authors fail to carry Abnett threads with due care, it's because they lack the skill. Abnett is demonstrating just how much skill he has in these books, yet he fails to incorporate continuity in ways that would in no way diminish the quality of the work. 

 

As an example: Lorgar's chapter would still be brilliant if he was dismissive of Erebus, like he should be. And Betrayer isn't some phoned-in crap, it's a fan favourite for the whole series, frequently in people's top 10 lists. It's a damn site better than Abnett's own Unremembered Empire. But between that and the Fidelitas Lex no longer being a wreck in Nuceria's ocean, it almost reads like that book's events didn't even happen, or at the very least were so inconsequential they don't need to be respected. 

 

And there are several such moments across the board. Abnett is so good that I can't help but be annoyed by these constant slip-ups. He's better than that - and I'm holding him to the standard he sets for himself. Yes, be ambitious, get WILD with it! But the responsibility of the final book is to pay off how we got here. TEATD3 is a tour-de-force, but mostly for paying off TEATD 1 and 2. And God, if Abnett had written the whole series? This would be the greatest literary accomplishment of our age. But, ehm, he didn't.

 

And I've already laid most of the blame at the editor's feet like 6 times now, so don't worry, I still blame them more.

[Moonreaper666]

Has Erebus ever betrayed Lorgar?

 

Both of them do believe in the Dark Gods's plans

[EverythingIsGreat]

@Scribe

 

Yours seem to be better reasons, but my comment was prompted by reading this: 

 

  On 1/29/2024 at 3:30 PM, lightinfa said:

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The theme of the importance of necessity of emotion is paid off very nicely in that Horus's emotional core, and his feelings of love, affection, duty, and guilt are ultimately what prevent him from killing the Emperor - providing a nice final answer to the question that was put to the Emperor in the first volume (why give his creations emotions?).

 

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We are all "created" i.e. moulded in large part

 

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by emotion. At home. at school, in church/temple/mosque/etc., in political/social organizations etc. etc. Family ties are strong for most people. That doesn't stop patricides, fratricides, and expanding, genocides. History and common sense goes against "emotion" as a stopper. How could it be? In many cases, emotion is the cause. And then you have characters like the ones I mentioned in my previous post, where ego overpowered everything.

 

[Scribe]

  On 1/29/2024 at 6:05 PM, Roomsky said:

No one can follow-up Abnett's work without hollowing out his characters. Ditto most of his ideas. What he communicates about a character with minimal pagetime is unmatched. His balancing act of character fragility and lethality make everybody read as vulnerable yet eminently competent. Abnett's Heresy would have given every legion creative, interesting, and frankly badass moments and developments in a way that wouldn't have required anywhere near 60+ books to give everyone their time in the sun. 

 

But there's a time and place for reinventing the wheel, and the capper to a 60+ book multi-author series ain't it. I'm not going to deny how absolutely stunning TEATD is at times. Expectations blown thoroughly out of the water, some of these passages are the best I've read in anything, ever. But when other authors fail to carry Abnett threads with due care, it's because they lack the skill. Abnett is demonstrating just how much skill he has in these books, yet he fails to incorporate continuity in ways that would in no way diminish the quality of the work. 

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....

 

I cannot even express the depth, abyss like, of my disagreement. :D

[Scribe]

 

@EverythingIsGreat

 

As it pertains to Horus, and re: V1/2/3 - Emotion

 

I think it's a pillar of the IP. Its the root of Chaos. Its what makes Humans, Human, while also being what makes the Primarchs the classic Demigods, and the Astartes what they are as well.

 

The 'best' (imo) authors, humanize their Astartes. The Primarchs are Demigods in that classical sense. Their emotions are overblown, exaggerated, extreme. What is a core point of the Emperor? That he gave up his emotion (well before TEatD btw Abnett... this is covered in Valdor, and I believe Vengeful Spirit :cuss:). The best part of Volume 1 concerns this.

 

As to emotion being enough to stop various megalomaniacs? Well no it has not, but I would argue that emotion is the CAUSE of those tyrannical behaviors as well.

 

Mental health/Emotion/Trauma, are the drivers of our world, we may not see it all the time, but as I age, thats certainly a view that I am coming to hold more often than not.

[System Sound]

I am finally done with this book.

 

Bit the bullet and I got the audiobook instead of the usual ebook since I had the whole apartment to repaint anyway. And, well its better than V1 and V2 thats for damn sure. It still has way too many issues. To sum it all up, the Heresy ends in a big fat "Meh" from me.

 

Pros.

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1. It's the End! Of the Siege and the Heresy. At this point, it pretty much became a chore to keep up with the bloated behemoth of a series... So its end is a good thing, atleast for me.

2. This is more audio-related, but Keeble was a fantastic narrator, even though his Gramaticus" American accent threw me for a loop.

3. The last chapter, where Malcador narrates the scene of how they bring the emperor to the throne is probably the best part of the book, of all 3 of them.

4. Fake Loken talking Horus into letting go of the chaos buffs was a very nice scene.

5. Go Erebus!

 

Cons.

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1. Horus' endless monologuing was beyond tedious and this time watching paint dry was more interesting...

2. Speaking of which, the whole Horus vs. Emperor fight was, something? There were parts that I liked, but way too much of it heavily relied on weird symbolism and Horus yapping his damn mouth...

3. The amount of plot hooks for future stories was a teeny tiny bit too bloody much don't you think Dan!?

4. This whole thing could have been 2 books at most... Be it BL's or Dan's decision, BOO!

 

 

And now I'm going to go listen to Gloomspite for a pallet cleanser.

[Matcap86]

Just finished it. Very pleased with the resolution we got especially in the context of the monumental task of tying all the diverse pieces together. 

 

Even got a little emotional 

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At Malcador's final release

 

Enjoyed it more than part 2 and on par with part 1 which I enjoyed a lot.

 

I will be sad to see the HH series go. It was for all its flaws one of the most enjoyable settings for the past 2 decades for me and a comfortable haven to take refuge in. 

 

I do hope they revisit it from time to time. Just to broaden the scope like they did in old style 40k novels. The setting is set, but there are still stories to be told.

 

 

[kamedake88]

Finished it last night and all I can say is what did I expect. It is Abnett after all and I should have known better after reading Anarch he would do something similar. So many wasted words, so many wasted pages, so many things left unfinished, both in this book and the Heresy as a whole. 18 years and that's it. My feelings towards the Heresy as a whole are complicated but with it being done all I can say is at least it is. And having been here from the beginning I feel as if the only person working on the Heresy who truly understood what it was passed away almost seven years ago. I don't know what else to say...

Edited January 29, 2024 by kamedake88

[DukeLeto69]

  On 1/29/2024 at 6:24 PM, Scribe said:

 

The 'best' (imo) authors, humanize their Astartes. The Primarchs are Demigods in that classical sense. Their emotions are overblown, exaggerated, extreme. What is a core point of the Emperor? That he gave up his emotion (well before TEatD btw Abnett... this is covered in Valdor, and I believe Vengeful Spirit :cuss:). The best part of Volume 1 concerns this.

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If I understand what you are saying @Scribe then I fundamentally disagree with your point on humanising the astartes. They are no longer human. They are transhuman. They are post-human. They are indoctrinated brainwashed killing machines that ceased being human as juvenile boys. They lack mature and evolved emotions that develop through social interaction. They cannot breed and cannot understand physical attraction. 

 

In MY opinion the best depiction of Astartes is when they cannot understand standard humans. When they have a limited range of emotions and all they truly understand is duty, honour, fraternity, valour, martial prowess, and perhaps overblown pride with a touch of narcissism.

 

In my opinion it is a mistake authors make in trying to humanise Astartes because they are “other” and it takes sophisticated writing to portray something alien to the reader/ourselves and still create any emotional attachment on our part. For me this is also a reason why so few books from a xenos POV work.

 

So yeah, unless I am missing your point, then I strongly disagree on that point.

[tgcleric]

  On 1/29/2024 at 6:05 PM, Roomsky said:

If you're still bothering to follow this thread, tgcleric:

 

I get where you're coming from. Abnett's writing is a treat. I wish he had written the entire series. He didn't write my favourite Heresy novel, nor what I think is the best Heresy novel - and still I wish he had written the whole thing. 

 

No one can follow-up Abnett's work without hollowing out his characters. Ditto most of his ideas. What he communicates about a character with minimal pagetime is unmatched. His balancing act of character fragility and lethality make everybody read as vulnerable yet eminently competent. Abnett's Heresy would have given every legion creative, interesting, and frankly badass moments and developments in a way that wouldn't have required anywhere near 60+ books to give everyone their time in the sun. 

 

But there's a time and place for reinventing the wheel, and the capper to a 60+ book multi-author series ain't it. I'm not going to deny how absolutely stunning TEATD is at times. Expectations blown thoroughly out of the water, some of these passages are the best I've read in anything, ever. But when other authors fail to carry Abnett threads with due care, it's because they lack the skill. Abnett is demonstrating just how much skill he has in these books, yet he fails to incorporate continuity in ways that would in no way diminish the quality of the work. 

 

As an example: Lorgar's chapter would still be brilliant if he was dismissive of Erebus, like he should be. And Betrayer isn't some phoned-in crap, it's a fan favourite for the whole series, frequently in people's top 10 lists. It's a damn site better than Abnett's own Unremembered Empire. But between that and the Fidelitas Lex no longer being a wreck in Nuceria's ocean, it almost reads like that book's events didn't even happen, or at the very least were so inconsequential they don't need to be respected. 

 

And there are several such moments across the board. Abnett is so good that I can't help but be annoyed by these constant slip-ups. He's better than that - and I'm holding him to the standard he sets for himself. Yes, be ambitious, get WILD with it! But the responsibility of the final book is to pay off how we got here. TEATD3 is a tour-de-force, but mostly for paying off TEATD 1 and 2. And God, if Abnett had written the whole series? This would be the greatest literary accomplishment of our age. But, ehm, he didn't.

 

And I've already laid most of the blame at the editor's feet like 6 times now, so don't worry, I still blame them more.

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I mostly agree. Maybe its just cause I came at this later and read 70+ books in about 4 years. So I dont have this weight of 18 years or whatever. 

But I just don't see any of this as major reinvention or anything like that. I can't tell you how many times in 70+ books it felt like the authors are writing a different series. Starting with Descent of Angels, to Outcast Dead, to whatever Graham was doing with like 4 books about Magnus being sad. It never felt cohesive. Even something like Wraight's great duology of the White Scars suddenly felt like a different series. I mean, I at least enjoyed Haley's books mostly, but again, felt like a new series when I got there. 

The first three Siege of Terra books felt like... three authors doing the same story slightly differently. 

From a purely literary viewpoint, just as a dude coming in to read these books cause I liked painting the figures and enjoyed Abnett's writing, the series was always a mess. Every claim people throw here about Abnett I would throw at literally every author. Except I wouldn't cause I dont expect different authors to tell the same stories the same ways. Its inherent with this approach. Period. So it never bothered me so much. Only thing that ever bothered me was individual books being boring as hell, and the fact that only 3 of the authors can even write what would pass as barely acceptable characterization to the average YA publisher. I read 70+ books and I could barely tell you a defining characteristic of a names character outside of anyone not written by the big 3 authors. I could usually care less about the Dramatis cause its just a bunch of silly names at the end of the day for the VAST majority of these books, to me. 

So. Like... yes. Abnett is not a caper to a cohesive 70+ series. Cause it never was one. So he capped it off exactly like it should be, to the best of his ability in his style. Cause that is what every GOOD author did here. ABD wrote his stories. He ignored pretty much everything else everyone wrote and just wrote the best stories he knew how. Thats what I want. Arguably, Wraight suffered with his SoT trying to do other people's work which is why to me, its easily the weakest of his three HH books. 

Yes. If Abnett had just written this as a 10 book series. It would have been great. I have a friend who literally just read HH, started False Gods, stopped, read Master of Legion, Master of Mankind, Prospero Burns, Saturnine and is now going through EotD, and his response was "its pretty awesome". 

If Abnett and ABD didn't just use their skill to tell the best story possible, honestly, I can't imagine this 70+ novel series having literally any worth to me. I get people's perspective here. It's just not mine. I also think the majority of Warhammer fans probably also will more or less think Abnett landed the plane pretty well. Anyways. I

l'll know when I finish it. But so far, so good. Don't think anything will beat Prospero or Saturnine. But eh. Endings are hard. Especially ones like this.

[EverythingIsGreat]

  On 1/29/2024 at 6:24 PM, Scribe said:

 

@EverythingIsGreat

 

As it pertains to Horus, and re: V1/2/3 - Emotion

 

I think it's a pillar of the IP. Its the root of Chaos. Its what makes Humans, Human, while also being what makes the Primarchs the classic Demigods, and the Astartes what they are as well.

 

The 'best' (imo) authors, humanize their Astartes. The Primarchs are Demigods in that classical sense. Their emotions are overblown, exaggerated, extreme. What is a core point of the Emperor? That he gave up his emotion (well before TEatD btw Abnett... this is covered in Valdor, and I believe Vengeful Spirit :cuss:). The best part of Volume 1 concerns this.

 

As to emotion being enough to stop various megalomaniacs? Well no it has not, but I would argue that emotion is the CAUSE of those tyrannical behaviors as well.

 

Mental health/Emotion/Trauma, are the drivers of our world, we may not see it all the time, but as I age, thats certainly a view that I am coming to hold more often than not.

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Well then we have to agree to disagree.

 

I am not at all convinced that the capacity to emote or the capacity to think is what makes us “human”. Animals can do both. The difference is that our emotions and thoughts are generally more complex, probably because our DNA and our interactions are generally more complex. But “what makes us human” is the same as saying “what makes as unique”. Attributes that we share with others cannot be it.

 

My original comment was because, presenting Horus as having “humanity” completely contradicts the lore.

It is not human. It is not even an Astartes, a genertically-modified-organism human. It is the result of some unknown processes. Maybe it can emulate humanity. Most artificial intelligences can be programmed to do so. Machines can appear to emote, or to think, and perhaps will be able to do both. But maybe it was psycho-conditioned by the Emperor very deeply to have human-like reactions. Well, he went to Moloch didn’t he? to eventually “deal” with Chaos, who are experts in removing any humanity-inducing conditioning? He bought their deprogramming package exactly so that he would have no doubts when the moment for doubts came.

 

This is said in so many words several times in the HH/SoT series. But ok, maybe the deprog was buggy. maybe the Emperor conditioning had multiple redundancies and failsafes. Well then what about the enormous ego? And here, look to real-world affairs. I cannot find any example of any warmongering egomaniac in history that does not pull the trigger when the moment comes, when s/he is free to do so. Certainly there is no “bro” like Loken or Oll to … talk them out of it.

 

To me this is a fail in both areas: fantasy-wise and reality-wise.

[Roomsky]

Well said tgcleric. I agree with that sentiment, it's certainly why I like Echoes so much. Though I will say some of the ire here is because Abnett didn't just let sleeping dogs lie. When things've been extended to 3 books in this way, it's pretty hard not to go "okay, but we didn't actually need more Zephon after Echoes. So why is he occupying pages?" 

 

But, as I will never stop repeating, I'm putting this largely on the editors. An artist's job is to do their thing, which Abnett has certainly done. The editors should be correcting most of this.

Edited January 29, 2024 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

  On 1/29/2024 at 7:57 PM, DukeLeto69 said:

If I understand what you are saying @Scribe then I fundamentally disagree with your point on humanising the astartes. They are no longer human. They are transhuman. They are post-human. They are indoctrinated brainwashed killing machines that ceased being human as juvenile boys. They lack mature and evolved emotions that develop through social interaction. They cannot breed and cannot understand physical attraction. 

 

In MY opinion the best depiction of Astartes is when they cannot understand standard humans. When they have a limited range of emotions and all they truly understand is duty, honour, fraternity, valour, martial prowess, and perhaps overblown pride with a touch of narcissism.

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I think this reflects a few things.

 

1. The fundamental difference between 30K Marines, and 40K Marines.

2. That the 'emotion' human component is absolutely critical to what makes Marines relatable.

3. That the very much stunted, damaged, 'little boy in a killing machine body' is, in a series about trauma, betrayal, lies, truth, passions, appreciation? I mean thats it at its root.

 

How many books discussed the Father/Son relationships? That is a human lens applied to a mutilated murder machine.

 

This isnt 40K, it was the HH. Emotion, and 'humanized' Astartes, have been with us in this series FAR longer than otherwise.

 

  On 1/29/2024 at 8:21 PM, EverythingIsGreat said:

My original comment was because, presenting Horus as having “humanity” completely contradicts the lore.

It is not human. It is not even an Astartes, a genertically-modified-organism human. It is the result of some unknown processes. Maybe it can emulate humanity. Most artificial intelligences can be programmed to do so. Machines can appear to emote, or to think, and perhaps will be able to do both. But maybe it was psycho-conditioned by the Emperor very deeply to have human-like reactions. Well, he went to Moloch didn’t he? to eventually “deal” with Chaos, who are experts in removing any humanity-inducing conditioning? He bought their deprogramming package exactly so that he would have no doubts when the moment for doubts came.

 

This is said in so many words several times in the HH/SoT series. But ok, maybe the deprog was buggy. maybe the Emperor conditioning had multiple redundancies and failsafes. Well then what about the enormous ego? And here, look to real-world affairs. I cannot find any example of any warmongering egomaniac in history that does not pull the trigger when the moment comes, when s/he is free to do so. Certainly there is no “bro” like Loken or Oll to … talk them out of it.

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I dont know what to tell you, because 'emotion' and not wanting to pull the trigger, is the pivot upon which this book rotates. The Primarch's are not psycho-conditioned. The Primarchs grew up, influenced by their worlds, just as human children grow up. The Primarchs can be quoted discussing their emotions, their 'human' side. Heck, Perturbo? His whole section has exactly 1 point. "I am a conflicted being, at odds with myself, I feel used, unappreciated, uncared for, and while I wish I was a cold being without emotion, I feel, and so I smash."

 

Emotion, is the whole point. Just as its the whole point of Chaos. Just as the Emperor giving it up, was meaningful.

 

You guys want Duty first and last? Either its Valdor, or Sigismund, and well Abnett ruined Valdor, and Sigismund is essentially a broken man, existing for one purpose. Killing.

[grailkeeper]

Did the showdown between Horus and the Emperor remind anyone of the end of Return of the Jedi? 

 

Confronting the big bad on the bridge of his ship and getting zapped with force lightning?

[Scribe]

  On 1/29/2024 at 8:47 PM, grailkeeper said:

Did the showdown between Horus and the Emperor remind anyone of the end of Return of the Jedi? 

 

Confronting the big bad on the bridge of his ship and getting zapped with force lightning?

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It reminded me of a lot of things, quite intentionally I'm sure.

 

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Mostly? It was a game of Magic the Gathering. 

 

[grailkeeper]

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[EverythingIsGreat]

  On 1/29/2024 at 8:44 PM, Scribe said:

I dont know what to tell you, because 'emotion' and not wanting to pull the trigger, is the pivot upon which this book rotates. The Primarch's are not psycho-conditioned. The Primarchs grew up, influenced by their worlds, just as human children grow up. The Primarchs can be quoted discussing their emotions, their 'human' side. Heck, Perturbo? His whole section has exactly 1 point. "I am a conflicted being, at odds with myself, I feel used, unappreciated, uncared for, and while I wish I was a cold being without emotion, I feel, and so I smash."

 

Emotion, is the whole point. Just as its the whole point of Chaos. Just as the Emperor giving it up, was meaningful.

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I don't dispute the portrayal. I point out the contradiction. The Primarchs, whatever they are, are not human. We are told. It would be expected then that a semblance of humanity, not humanity itself is what they wear, when their genetically (?) induced conditioning/programming chooses the best-fitting personality for the circumstance. Beings perhaps designed to live for thousands of centuries cannot be permanently affected by a few decades' exposure to any environment. That's a bug. They should be able to adapt, yes. But not to the point of overriding their core programming. For a long time the "Scattering" was used to account for such bugs. But we don't even really know that this was a hostile act. And as I said, emotions can be easily programmed, that's not the point. This is exactly what this forum is for: how well BL authors program the emotional content of their stories, and whether such programming generates the expected reaction (emotions) in us, the readers.

 

Horus's final act would be better explained by insanity, as you suggested. Or by stating that Chaos' scans of the Horus code missed a hidden failsafe that would overwhelm his system (and any added programming) if he ever was going to strike a mortal blow against his maker.

[Ubiquitous1984]

The afterword for me was very interesting.  Contrary to the view of many on the internet, it appears that there was a lot of meddling in the book from GW management and ‘high lords’ (executives?)

 

DA comments that he had to deliver 3 + 3 + 2 drafts of the respective volumes, before they were accepted.  It read like he didn’t gain much pleasure from the whole experience tbh, although he does comment how it was an honour etc etc to write the final book (or words to that effect).

 

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I don’t like how we barely saw the Emperor in the book. It made his ‘death’ feel less important than it should.  This felt like a GW decision (“keep the mysteries”, or whatever it was that Dan said GW management directed him to do).  If any book should have been free to give some revelation to the reader, it was this one.  But we hardly got any juicy lore revelations to enjoy.  Moloch remains a mystery, seemingly now never to be revealed.  LE 2 is … what?  Omeagon literally did just bow out the whole HH in StD it seems.  What happened to the Interrogators?  I mean I could go on with 50+ secondary plot lines from the late HH/Siege alone that remain unanswered.  It’s disappointing if this truly is the end.

 

It’s been said by many already, but I disliked how Dan wrote Valdor in this book.  Valdor has always been one of my favourite characters but he just felt ‘off’ in book 8.  Chris Wraight wrote him much better IMO.

 

Dan says that one character was notably missing from the book and asks in the afterword ‘did you notice who’?  Just wondering if there was a consensus on who this was?

 

Anyway tbh I feel a bit numb, I enjoyed the book and especially the whole final battle which was great fun.  But now I feel there is a void in my life I need to fill.  In the space of a week I’ve given up on collecting BL limited edition books and now the HH/SoT is over.  I feel like a big part of my 20/30’s is gone, with nothing obvious to replace it with.  I’m 40 later this year, maybe it’s time to grow up!!

 

Edited January 29, 2024 by Ubiquitous1984

[Scribe]

  On 1/29/2024 at 10:17 PM, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Dan says that one character was notably missing from the book and asks in the afterword ‘did you notice who’?  Just wondering if there was a consensus on who this was?

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Would be impossible to say, as there are tons of lost plot lines and characters.

[grailkeeper]

  On 1/29/2024 at 10:17 PM, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Dan says that one character was notably missing from the book and asks in the afterword ‘did you notice who’?  Just wondering if there was a consensus on who this was?

 

 

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The Editor.

[SpecialIssue]

I think as this series' demi-gods, the Primarchs and perhaps even the Emperor should be seen as and were written as expressions of humanity's various attributes and follies, in the Greek gods style. Hubris, jealousy, honour, anger etc. Both for obvious thematic reasons, and as a logical extrapolation of the (newish) lore regarding their nature as partly-warp beings - raw emotion and psychic themes have gone into their making / being / who they are. In the Greek god style, that means they are going to make stupid, childish, selfish, bizarre, (self-)harmful decisions that screw things up, whether their intentions are for good or ill. The execution and consistency of this is extremely rocky throughout the series, with multiple major characters seeming to backtrack their emotional arcs / not engaging with previous developments; this is the problem, not the idea that they are beings of emotion. I didn't mind the idea of Horus in actuality not being able to execute the final blow - it's the road and many backtracks that didn't actually lead us here that are the problem.

 

The more severe brainwashing of space marines, only happened in the 2nd founding and the codex reforms by Guilliman (are they going to touch on this fact in any coming books, tarnishing the protagonist of the setting?), precisely to reduce these human traits and ensure loyalty; so chaos marines are more in touch with their humanity than the loyalists in the 41st millennium, a vicious irony which is also pointed at directly by Khan's realisation of what Sigismund represents, and adding another layer to the perverse tragedy of the universe.

 

For the next 10,000 years, when a chaos legionnaire yells taunts and criticisms of the Emperor, he might for a moment pity the glazed, glassy eyes of his loyalist counterpart, forever locked in a sense of dutiful fervour, whose mind is unable to even comprehend or engage with concepts such as that the Emperor may have been flawed.

[SkimaskMohawk]

  On 1/28/2024 at 1:15 AM, DarkChaplain said:

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And yeah, I also found Perturabo's views on not wasting resources / lives and instead retreating to be out of tune with previous depictions. Perturabo sent his Legion into the grinder over and over, and showed incredible amounts of stubborness when it came to keeping sieges going.

 

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I guess I'll finally mention this now 

 

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The "i totally do retreat when i cant win" is so....not true. We don't have many stories of perturabo being in a position where he's losing and has that choice to make; in fact, I don't think there's any story where the forces he's leading are in a position where he can't triumph. He's usually just told to screw off by Horus and gives up on a position that's never said to be at risk.

 

But there is one very notable story where iron warriors retreat. It's running parallel to Perturabos in Hammer of Olympia, and it's when Dantioch gets absolutely overrun by the Hrud. He had no conceivable chance at doing his job, and pert super exiled him for not standing and dying.  He gets stuck in the basement of a miserable planet, his armour gets gifted to someone else, his fleet gets gifted to someone else, and he's now known as a failure.

 

Now maybe pert is supposed to look obviously hypocritical. It's kinda a common trope in a number of primarch books/arcs (looking at you curze, pert fulgrim, corax, etc...). But, they make it....obvious; they juxtapose the behavior to another event close by in the scene, book, or throughout the series of its some sort of arc. And in the hands of falkus kibre illegally dying/Delphic battlement shifting/fedalitas lex resurrecting/daemonic incursion to the sanctum being fake news author, I can't trust references to the past books in the heresy that weren't Horus rising.

[TrevorLoLz]

I finished the novel a couple days ago.

 

I really liked it. It was far more focused than Volumes 1 and 2. 

 

My brief comments below:

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- The tighter plot line benefitted the book. It kept me engaged, there were very few times I was wanting to flick through (like I did a fair bit with Volume 1), and I read the book in a day because of it. 

 

- I really enjoyed The Emperor vs. Horus fight. I thought it was well done, with enough facets to keep it interesting without becoming too hard to follow. I enjoyed the tribute to Bill King's version towards the end.

 

- The Blood Angels being afflicted with the Black Rage was also executed well. Amit's shock and Sartak informing him the only reason he stopped was because he snapped out of it ("This was as far as you got.") was perfect. 

 

- The dialogue between Loken & Abaddon made sense. Loken began the book, so let us end it with him, in the most egregious way possible, while he tries to negotiate a lasting peace between the remaining uncorrupted Sons of Horus and the Imperium.

 

- Abnett addressing the "Was it a Custodes, Space Marine or Guardsman who stood up to Horus" by using all three was perfect. Ollanius biting the dust (presumably, he is a Perpetual but can't see him coming back from this one) in the Vengeful Spirit while handing The Emperor the weapon needed to take down Horus, Caecaltus basically saying "I ain't hear no bell" and LE-2 just giving it a good old country try emphasised the desperation of the situation.

 

- Historical fiction has stated that The Emperor held back from killing Horus. In the past, it was because he still saw him as his son and it was only Horus killing the Custodes/Guardsman/Imperial Fist that gave him the resolution to do so. But in all honesty, that never made sense. Now we see that it was Horus holding back, because (consistent with previous iterations) there was always a part of uncorrupted Horus fighting back, and The Emperor could have killed Horus if he did what Horus did - just use the power of Chaos without dilution or restraint. So in effect, The Emperor was holding back.

 

- The last line of The Emperor hit home - you can picture the scene where Horus is about to be obliterated and The Emperor forgives him before doing the deed.

 

- Malcador's sections were still some of the best parts of the book, consistent with (IMO) Volumes 1 & 2.

 

- Abnett can't help himself (Lilean Chase, The Inevitable City).

 

- Erebus continues to be the most hated man in 40k. He's a convenient plot device, as evidenced in tying up the Loken plotlline.

 

- I dunno what others think, but the "Loken dying to birth Samus" angle felt a bit cheap to me but I definitely won't pretend it wasn't foreshadowed throughout the novel.

 

As a final personal Ode to Requiem, this was a slightly emotional read for me. Horus Rising was released in (I think) 2006. I was just finishing high school. Since then, I've graduated high school, university, built a home and a career, got a dog, had girlfriends, moved cities and developed other interests, but throughout it all, the constant of "when is the next HH novel out?" followed me.  It's been a part of my life, even if only in a small way, and was overwhelmingly a positive one. 

 

Did I read every HH novel? No way, there were definitely instances where it just trailed off into irrelevant tangents (IMO) and if I tried to buy every, last, book, it would have been a very expensive endeavour. But I still remember my excitement at buying the first book after having read the Index Astartes articles in White Dwarf (when it was more than just a glossy catalogue - shudder at the Giant issue... older members know the one).

 

I remember being anxious to know what Angron and the World Eaters would be like, and chomping at the bit to read about the Battle of Prospero. I couldn't buy Fulgrim fast enough after reading the first trilogy, and still remember how gripped I was reading Know No Fear and the "Pearl Harbor" esque-scene at the start (the void battle). Warhammer was a part of my childhood, it's still a part of me today (even though it's been many a year since I seriously bought and painted models) and I'm sure it will feel odd, in time, to not having another HH release (I'm not naive, they will almost certainly bring out some novellas/short stories, along with the Horus Primarch novella, but the main story is done!) waiting in the wings.

 

It was also poetic that Abnett begun and ended it. When I think about it, Abnett has been an author I've been reading since Gaunts Ghosts, which means his books have been a part of most of my life, to some extent or another. I don't think another author can really lay claim to that, and I do read a lot.

[Marshal Rohr]

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I finally finished it and can’t say I loved it. I feel like each time Horus knocked out the Emperor so someone could come in and finish their plot line would’ve worked better if all that was cut out and the Dr Strange fight just rolled right into Oll dying and the Emperor finally killing him. 

  On 1/29/2024 at 10:28 PM, grailkeeper said:

 

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Edited January 30, 2024 by Marshal Rohr