The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Both the Siege and the Heresy as a whole each need a Chaos Anthology in which Daemons and those Blessed by Chaos go on a rampage or unleash unrivaled death and cruelty. With the POVs being Loyalists

 

Like a Short Story in which Heresy Corax runs away and lets his sons die trying to slow down Be'lakor

 

The in the Siege, Be'lakor corrupts entire Conscript Regiments into attacking the Blood Angels as they retreated from Colossi Gate. Sanginius gets wounded by Be'lakor and forced to retreat

 

Fan Fiction has its own forum.

[System Sound]

3 hours ago, Moonreaper666 said:

Both the Siege and the Heresy as a whole each need a Chaos Anthology in which Daemons and those Blessed by Chaos go on a rampage or unleash unrivaled death and cruelty. With the POVs being Loyalists

 

Like a Short Story in which Heresy Corax runs away and lets his sons die trying to slow down Be'lakor

 

The in the Siege, Be'lakor corrupts entire Conscript Regiments into attacking the Blood Angels as they retreated from Colossi Gate. Sanginius gets wounded by Be'lakor and forced to retreat

No.

[depthcharge12]

The End and the Death series was a waste of pages and I don’t feel any closer to the epic conclusion that should have been. This writing almost doesn’t feel like Abnett (contrast with his style in Gaunt’s Ghosts and Legion) and I’m not sure if I am coping that he could have just churned out three turds lol

 

My gripes:

Spoiler

1. No time in the sun for some of the most harrowing and heartwrenching moments of the end of the siege - no Ultramarine relief POV past the opening pages. No Lion and Russ angst and final dual on Terra. No final words from the Emperor to Dorn.

 

2. where were the perspectives of the traitors when the siege broke? We got a fun little view of the Vengeful Spirit, but it felt shoehorned in between the plot timelines. Most of the time, Abnett spent red shirting traitors to rack up the body counts for dudes that were already heroes of legend. I didn’t feel any sort of pending doom for the loyalists because Rann could just axe his way through anything, and Sigismund with Corswain couldn’t be touched. 

3. the level of dragon ball z/naruto bs with “just hit them harder” or “ya gotta believe in yourself” tripe

 

4. Fo - this could have turned into a really cool new piece of lore and subplot, but was absolutely ruined because nothing ever materialized from his weapon and he just body swapped

5. the endless tedium of the books. Every chapter, every plot point was just drawn out past the point of enjoyment. Chapters in a book should help drive closer to the conflict and conclusion of the plot. It felt like Abnett was just grifting for time to get more filler to sell to the heresy community. Oh boy I sure can’t wait for another 63 books in the scouring. I have never been less interested in an Abnett book than this final trilogy, which feels shameful considering how well he has written in the past. I found myself skimming sections of the book because I could care less about certain plot points and endless filler.

 

 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

On 2/3/2024 at 7:30 AM, Moonreaper666 said:

Both the Siege and the Heresy as a whole each need a Chaos Anthology in which Daemons and those Blessed by Chaos go on a rampage or unleash unrivaled death and cruelty. With the POVs being Loyalists

 

Like a Short Story in which Heresy Corax runs away and lets his sons die trying to slow down Be'lakor

 

The in the Siege, Be'lakor corrupts entire Conscript Regiments into attacking the Blood Angels as they retreated from Colossi Gate. Sanginius gets wounded by Be'lakor and forced to retreat

So we’re back to Be’lakor being your go-to subject for the snuff-fic fantasies. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

It is interesting that Part III is so different stylistically from the other parts. I had gone back to comments about the origins of the game (WH40K) and one of the major influences for the setting and background Rick Priestley had mentioned back then was Milton's Paradise Lost. The interminable poem is told from the POV of several characters and has a dreamlike, surreal, immersive quality. I wonder if Abnett didn't also follow this a bit. He additionally dedicates TEATD to Ian Watson, whose seminal novels had a dreamy, surreal quality of their own.

 

I think it has been mentioned before in this forum, that in Paradise Lost, the capital of Hell where the fallen plot their schemes to destroy god's most beloved creation (humanity) is called Pandaemonium.

 

The switch to more conventional prose in Part III was unexpected, for me at least.

[MarineRaiderII]

As I read this again I am really wishing that somehow Russ's spear stab would have been the reason for Horus perhaps having pause, a simple callback. I mean the spears had their own book for gosh sakes. 

[DarkChaplain]

No, no, Horus' spear was the reason why Horus' "good side" resurfaced briefly, putting him in a coma after Titandeath, because he was tearing himself apart internally, due to conflicting emotions etc. Then we had an entire novel that dealt with that exact part of him being killed by Maloghurst to get him out of that coma, didn't we? It's pretty weird that now, at the end, that part is just kinda back for Abnett to play with, innit?

Edited February 4, 2024 by DarkChaplain

[DukeLeto69]

8 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

It is interesting that Part III is so different stylistically from the other parts. I had gone back to comments about the origins of the game (WH40K) and one of the major influences for the setting and background Rick Priestley had mentioned back then was Milton's Paradise Lost. The interminable poem is told from the POV of several characters and has a dreamlike, surreal, immersive quality. I wonder if Abnett didn't also follow this a bit. He additionally dedicates TEATD to Ian Watson, whose seminal novels had a dreamy, surreal quality of their own.

 

I think it has been mentioned before in this forum, that in Paradise Lost, the capital of Hell where the fallen plot their schemes to destroy god's most beloved creation (humanity) is called Pandaemonium.

 

The switch to more conventional prose in Part III was unexpected, for me at least.

Yup Pandaemonium (literally city of daemons) has been mentioned plenty along with Paradise Lost. 

[Etruscan]

Another thing that sort of struck me, aside from the interesting point above about Russ wounding Horus with the spear, was that I found myself thinking that Sanguinius’ death felt sort of pointless? I was expecting his sacrifice to have had more of an impact on the Emperor’s ability to defeat Horus but it felt like he hadn’t really hurt Horus at all, physically at least.

 

At times the narrative suggested that the Angel had to die in order for Horus to be defeated but I can’t recall his death really having any affect on the Horus vs Emperor duel? Happy to be corrected as I’m going on memory alone. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

That is how it seems to me too. Looks like the minor reason for his death was the fulfillment of the various visions and the major reason was as a cause of the BA's Black Rage.

 

It seems to have also affected other characters from both sides

 

Spoiler

Except the Emperor

 

[Scribe]

4 hours ago, Etruscan said:

Another thing that sort of struck me, aside from the interesting point above about Russ wounding Horus with the spear, was that I found myself thinking that Sanguinius’ death felt sort of pointless? I was expecting his sacrifice to have had more of an impact on the Emperor’s ability to defeat Horus but it felt like he hadn’t really hurt Horus at all, physically at least.

 

At times the narrative suggested that the Angel had to die in order for Horus to be defeated but I can’t recall his death really having any affect on the Horus vs Emperor duel? Happy to be corrected as I’m going on memory alone. 

 

I think Sanguinius' death was always one of facing down fate, doing what you know is right, even if its pointless.

 

That it then scar's his legion is just a happy accident.

 

"Do what is right even if the cause is lost." is a, if not THE, central pillar of the IP.

[MarineRaiderII]

14 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

No, no, Horus' spear was the reason why Horus' "good side" resurfaced briefly, putting him in a coma after Titandeath, because he was tearing himself apart internally, due to conflicting emotions etc. Then we had an entire novel that dealt with that exact part of him being killed by Maloghurst to get him out of that coma, didn't we? It's pretty weird that now, at the end, that part is just kinda back for Abnett to play with, innit?

Yes, you're right of course. Since it's DA couldn't we have the Interex show up and save the day?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I’ve always found the whole “Sanguinius created a chink in Horus’ armour” thing weird. You’re saying that after the entire massive duel between Horus and the Emperor, the Emperor hadn’t been able to create one single scratch himself to use? The Emperor, a god in everything but name, wasn’t able to land a single substantial blow on Horus?

 

Sanguinius is good, but he’s not “outdo the Emperor Himself” good. 

[Scribe]

28 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I’ve always found the whole “Sanguinius created a chink in Horus’ armour” thing weird. You’re saying that after the entire massive duel between Horus and the Emperor, the Emperor hadn’t been able to create one single scratch himself to use? The Emperor, a god in everything but name, wasn’t able to land a single substantial blow on Horus?

 

Sanguinius is good, but he’s not “outdo the Emperor Himself” good. 

 

At this point, considering the scale and scope of The Fight, the idea is pretty laughable anyway. It was a battle between a God Tier being, and an extremely powerful being, who was factually outclassed by Horus at every stage.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I can accept Sanguinius creating a chink in Horus’ armour, and that being the best he can do. What I find confusing is the idea of the Emperor not being able to create his own, and being wholly reliant on the one created by Sanguinius to achieve victory. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I’ve always found the whole “Sanguinius created a chink in Horus’ armour” thing weird. You’re saying that after the entire massive duel between Horus and the Emperor, the Emperor hadn’t been able to create one single scratch himself to use? The Emperor, a god in everything but name, wasn’t able to land a single substantial blow on Horus?

 

Sanguinius is good, but he’s not “outdo the Emperor Himself” good. 

 

That is not entirely correct. Throughout the duel, the Emperor landed many substantial blows

 

Spoiler

even opening Horus's scull using the bloodlight "crown". As Scribe references, Horus' power was the full undiluted power of Chaos and any injury could be "repaired" in minutes. Horus is unkillable while he's the power puppet of Chaos, per the story

 

The problem with the duel for me was the aftermath.

 

Spoiler

Horus is finally obliterated when he sheds the full power of the Chaos. Ok. And... what? There's no contingency by the four? After 30000+ years of planning the whole exercise hinges on one vessel? Why the hell retreat? The Emperor is almost dead anyway, and you four Bozos are right there (along with uncountable minions). Finish the damn job!

 

Oh well. This is canon, as Abnett clearly states in the Afterword, with the blessing of the IP keepers and other stakeholders. The TEATD is what actually happened, and every other recounting is misinformation, myth or legend. So I guess we have to go with this.

Edited February 5, 2024 by EverythingIsGreat

[Scribe]

21 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I can accept Sanguinius creating a chink in Horus’ armour, and that being the best he can do. What I find confusing is the idea of the Emperor not being able to create his own, and being wholly reliant on the one created by Sanguinius to achieve victory. 

 

In a different universe, that story is told. As EverythingIsGreat mentions, its not like the Emperor didnt land his own blows, the issue is...its just not relevant anymore. The scale of the conflict is beyond Primarchs, it is to Primarchs, what Primarchs are to a single gnat. Its just...beyond any kind of relevant context.

 

Now again, I personally ENJOYED the level Abnett brought this conflict to, and I think it is a plausible explanation for just what was going on.

 

I just dont...see how all the tools were used. All the history, all the lore, all of the HH, or even all of the SoT.

 

And thats something we are going to get to chew on and sit with, forever.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Forgive me, I wasn’t commenting on this version of the fight, more pointing out how the prior fluff didn’t make sense, and thus needed to be changed to this. 

[SpecialIssue]

48 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

even opening Horus's scull using the bloodlight "crown". As Scribe references, Horus' power was the full undiluted power of Chaos and any injury could be "repaired" in minutes. Horus is unkillable while he's the power puppet of Chaos, per the story

 

The problem with the duel for me was the aftermath.

 

  Hide contents

Horus is finally obliterated when he sheds the full power of the Chaos. Ok. And... what? There's no contingency by the four? After 30000+ years of planning the whole exercise hinges on one vessel? Why the hell retreat? The Emperor is almost dead anyway, and you four Bozos are right there (along with uncountable minions). Finish the damn job!

 

Oh well. This is canon, as Abnett clearly states in the Afterword, with the blessing of the IP keepers and other stakeholders. The TEATD is what actually happened, and every other recounting is misinformation, myth or legend. So I guess we have to go with this.

 

I think that the ruinous powers wanted everything to happen the way it did.

 

Why is it the immediate assumption that Chaos isn't winning, when it has been winning for 10,000 years? The gods don't grow strong from territory or even worship (that merely attracts their attention) - they grow strong from emotion, no matter where it flows from (imagine the despair that Gulliman felt upon awakening in the 41st millennium - Nurgle has a very special place in his garden for that morsel). W40k has always quietly said, piecing together the implications of the lore, that the Imperium is the ideal vessel to cultivate these emotions, and thus Chaos. They want emotion, not Terra.

 

They've ensured that their chosen vessel of humanity will be mired in a half-life of decay and frothing fanaticism that won't be burnt out in a generation, but continue to propagate and dominate for an almost geological amount of time, across an entire galaxy. "Finishing the job" meant that without the Astronomicon, the Imperium fragments / implodes, and its loathsome ideas and culture aren't able to propagate and consolidate to imprison the entirety of their chosen species of mankind and perpetuate the cycle of suffering.

 

The Emperor tried to play them, but He got played. It was either ascension to the Dark King at the expense of humanity (actually fulfilling everything Horus initially feared for!), or His suffering of an eternity for the stagnation of humanity to feed their thirst.

 

I mean it does say...

 

"Forget the power of technology, science and common humanity. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter and the laughter of thirsting gods."

 

Sounds like a pretty good time for the gods to me - don't think they could have come up with a better galaxy thanks to their tools, Horus and The Emperor.

[TheArtilleryman]

What the gods get is exactly what is shown to the Alpha Legion in Legion. A future where there is only war.

[Fedor]

Just want to apologise for the tone of that earlier post addressing Scribe. I'd not been having the best of days and let a bunch of longer term grievances i've had with parts of the GW/BL community get the better of me, despite it not really being an appropriate post to address them with, nor the right way to go about doing it.

Edited February 5, 2024 by Fedor

[EverythingIsGreat]

Doesn’t GW put out tons of promotional stuff? No need to parrot them.

 

So, supposedly Chaos has put in motion a plot spanning 30000+ years. Why? What is so interesting about the collective shaman incarnation (the Emperor) that such plots must be initiated and sustained? Nothing from GW about that, except we know as canon that the Anathema can actually extinguish chaotic essence (daemons cease to exist, period, anywhere). This has been shown unambiguously, in author (GW) voice.

 

In the meantime these 30000+ the galaxy is… a peaceful, unemotional place? Or is it wracked by excess, war and destruction (just like the previous million years). Is there any peace except locally, for short periods? Maybe one can wishfully think that building of empires like the necrontyr, eldar or humanity’s first expansion (per the lore) etc. happened peacefully and unemotionally. Rather unlikely.

 

So anyway according to the lore, apparently the Emperor is an existential threat for Chaos, it’s not a “game”. They come together. They plan. They designate instruments that put in motion elaborate designs. And… it all depends on a single thrust? Can anyone’s survival plan depend wholly on an instrument unstable enough to rather easily betray its essence and original purpose? Who says the instrument won’t betray you next?

 

Ok, so maybe Chaos is dumb. But the objective is get rid of the Emperor, fully corrupt humanity and bring the entire galaxy into their fold. The objective cannot be “constant war”. That has been already happening for millions of years prior. Strife with short intervals of cooperation.

 

And here’s the endgame. Their instrument, predictably, betrays them in the last moment and is destroyed. But the Emperor is almost gone. The foes are there in insurmountable force. The battlefield outside has already been decided. On Terra, chaos, and Chaos reigns. And instead of just easily killing the Emperor… they leave? And not just retreat. It’s a rout. If ever one could extract defeat from the laurels of victory this is it.

 

In a telling of the siege that actually made sense, intermediate material would have been provided by the authors that gave some rationalization and storyline about how such a thing could have happened. Instead readers are presumed to be imbeciles that buy GW’s blurbs. Look forget all that, total war guys! Chaos won! Another 10000 years of war to match the HH, the 200 years of GC, the Unification Wars, the Wars of the Age of Strife, the wars of DAOT etc etc, and the untold millions of years of wars before it! Whoo boy!

 

Grim.

[TheArtilleryman]

Isn’t it more that the Emperor threatened to eradicate war? But chaos wanted it to continue and be even bigger?

[SpecialIssue]

Hm.

 

You suppose that the galaxy-wide Imperium is not significantly worse, on a larger and longer timescale than any regime or period of time that has gone before, thus meaning there is no incentive for the gods to seek to bring it about. That is the crux of your point.

 

On that fundamental level, I believe the opposite. I believe that the Imperium is the worst possible regime imaginable, that both maximises and sustains the emotion seen in humanity and the galaxy, through its quadrillions of minds conditioned to live under and propagate oppression, inequality, religious frenzy and irrational hate.

 

What other period in history has humanity been as powerful, but collectively as unfree and miserable for so long? That is the thematic basis of the Imperium - the industrial production of power and misery.

 

This is seen through the 30+ years of W40k and the very blurb that has introduced readers to the entire ethos and focus of this universe since the beginning.

 

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

 

As for the sidenote about the shaman - who knows who planned what from when? It could have all been foreseen when they reincarnated by either, both, or none of the parties. We have no idea so it is useless to speculate. Is 40k a deterministic universe, given the Warp is timeless? The shamans made their decisions, the gods made theirs, and the sum total is W40k, that is all I need to know. And from that sum, I think Chaos came out on top from 30k onwards.

[TheArtilleryman]

I think the Emperor’s vision for the imperium, the united version of it that he intended as the end goal, is not something Chaos would want. What they wanted was the toxic, corrupted version of the imperium that followed the Horus Heresy. Had the emperor survived to enact his actual intentions, there may have been a lot less suffering than there ultimately was.