The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Just123456]

On 11/5/2023 at 3:08 PM, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

I'm going to hold off until i read the set up proper, but I'll say this: slaanesh wasn't created through a sacrifice. It was created through concentrated emotion and a culture wide slide into depravity; all the eldar dying was a consequence of the birth of the god, not the fuel for it.

 

So what is the Dark King god of? What is one guy going super sayan representative of?

 

 

Yea it's...early 2000s wikipedia. Some people used it for all their assignments, and some people didn't trust it because there's some obvious sloppiness and that can bleed through.

 

And bols hasn't been good since like, 4th edition. Current goonhammrr is basically what bols was in its heyday. 

 

BOLS has people making videos where they flip through pages of retro 40k books, even books from 1st edition. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Just123456

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

The saddest thing about all this is that the concepts are not even that bad

 

The concepts and themes are excellent.

 

Consider Vengeful Spirit where Horus is told that the Emperor approached Chaos as a 'would-be god', and that their anger with him is that of spurned mentors rather than enemies. The problem is that this just isn't reflected in the text anywhere else. If we had this constant, low-intensity idea that Chaos was pushing the Emperor rather than Horus, I think where we're at would feel a lot better. There's narration in this book about Chaos having spent the Heresy chipping away at the Emperor's support network and isolating him, which is fine in hindsight, but that's what robs it of punch: it's all hindsight. It's Abnett recontextualising events rather than having a definitive path to this point. It makes sense, but it's being ham-fisted in there rather than a natural progression. Forcing the Emperor to embrace the power he's always held at arm's length is a good idea. It's smart. It's very Chaos-y: forcing him into the Great Game, whether he likes it or not. I don't like it as much as it being a result of humanity's desperate faith after the events of the Heresy, but I guess it works well enough.

 

But without narrative support anywhere else, there's no meat to it, no bones. It's exactly the same as Erda. Erda as a character concept is fascinating and very cool. If there'd been hints of this erased genetic mastermind in the story before hand, another Perpetual or peer to the Emperor who helped him in his greatest creation - and his greatest betrayal - her reveal would have been amazing. Erda as an 'alternative' to the Emperor (and Malcador) would have been at the forefront of everyone's mind. But instead, she just drops fully-formed into the plot to dump some exposition, have Abnett 'solve' the big mystery of the scattering in a way that's disconnected from every other possibility/hint, and then be shuffled off, stage-left. 

 

It's just too late for these ideas. This is not the time or the place for them, and to make them fit, the series is bent around them - outright ignored or rewritten in parts, even. There's a bit in this book where we find out that Malcador actually was totally cool with telling everyone about the Warp and Chaos and asked the Emperor to do it tons of times, despite everything written previously to the contrary. We also find out he built the first Astartes, apparently? I... don't recall that ever being the case? ??? Why was this done? What purpose does it serve, beyond Abnett deciding to write a character or event 'properly'?

[Scribe]

28 minutes ago, Fedor said:

 

Just pretend ADB wrote it. Instant 10/10, no flaws, no need to think. Succumb to the urge.

 

Nobody has the ability to delude themselves into thinking Abnettian-Prose, could be any other author. Theres also the whole 'let me just tie all my pet projects into the capstone of a story that had nothing to do with my Abnett-verse' issue....nah, I'm afraid its a different caliber of fanboy needed here. One who looks at 3 bloated books and says 'yes please more!'

 

A fine suggestion, but I called this years ago. ;)

Edited November 6, 2023 by Scribe

[Just123456]

7 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

The concepts and themes are excellent.

 

Consider Vengeful Spirit where Horus is told that the Emperor approached Chaos as a 'would-be god', and that their anger with him is that of spurned mentors rather than enemies. The problem is that this just isn't reflected in the text anywhere else. If we had this constant, low-intensity idea that Chaos was pushing the Emperor rather than Horus, I think where we're at would feel a lot better. There's narration in this book about Chaos having spent the Heresy chipping away at the Emperor's support network and isolating him, which is fine in hindsight, but that's what robs it of punch: it's all hindsight. It's Abnett recontextualising events rather than having a definitive path to this point. It makes sense, but it's being ham-fisted in there rather than a natural progression. Forcing the Emperor to embrace the power he's always held at arm's length is a good idea. It's smart. It's very Chaos-y: forcing him into the Great Game, whether he likes it or not. I don't like it as much as it being a result of humanity's desperate faith after the events of the Heresy, but I guess it works well enough.

 

But without narrative support anywhere else, there's no meat to it, no bones. It's exactly the same as Erda. Erda as a character concept is fascinating and very cool. If there'd been hints of this erased genetic mastermind in the story before hand, another Perpetual or peer to the Emperor who helped him in his greatest creation - and his greatest betrayal - her reveal would have been amazing. Erda as an 'alternative' to the Emperor (and Malcador) would have been at the forefront of everyone's mind. But instead, she just drops fully-formed into the plot to dump some exposition, have Abnett 'solve' the big mystery of the scattering in a way that's disconnected from every other possibility/hint, and then be shuffled off, stage-left. 

 

It's just too late for these ideas. This is not the time or the place for them, and to make them fit, the series is bent around them - outright ignored or rewritten in parts, even. There's a bit in this book where we find out that Malcador actually was totally cool with telling everyone about the Warp and Chaos and asked the Emperor to do it tons of times, despite everything written previously to the contrary. We also find out he built the first Astartes, apparently? I... don't recall that ever being the case? ??? Why was this done? What purpose does it serve, beyond Abnett deciding to write a character or event 'properly'?

My one and only problem with Erda is that she was introduced into the setting too late. Besides that, she is awesome. 

[Just123456]

Spoiler

Spoiler

As Terra, the Vengeful Spirit and the solar system are being pulled into the warp, all the dimensions and the laws of reality are falling apart, even Euclidean and Minkowskian principles. On top of this, Horus is becoming a functional god. He can melt the world into the sky, he can blow time away like the tufts of a dandelion, he can twist up all the materia in the whole universe into one knotted ball and summon inevitable cities, he can resurrect the dead from their tombs and times, making them live as they once did. Horus at this point can do anything he wills. But the Emperor drank from the warp to fight the ascending Horus, but drank too much too fast and was becoming the Dark King, who would have been a god vastly stronger than all of Chaos, but the Emperor chose not to and went back in. 

 

https://pastebin.com/GkptkaE8

 

 

 

I am sorry If I didn't get the spoilers up in time. But hopefully you can only see it by clicking it. 

 

Can someone tell me how to delete excess spoiler tags? I don't come to this website much. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Just123456

[SkimaskMohawk]

3 hours ago, SvenIronhand said:

The warp responds to ritualized mass death events pretty well, too, as seen with the Ruinstorm. And the Dark King is the god of Ruin. Perhaps it's the Primordial Annihilator, perhaps not. 

From Part 1:

 

  Hide contents

‘Such is the inevitable fate of all advanced, psychic species,’ says Actae. ‘And the Dark King is our fate. This war, my lord, is not one of loyalists against traitors. It is not about the conquest of Terra and mankind by Chaos. It is certainly not about a son at war with his father. This is the Triumph of Ruin. Horus and the Emperor have taken their conflict to such a pitch, that we are about to suffer the same fate as the cursed aeldari. The human race will die in birth-fire, consumed by blood-rage, pestilence, violent transmutation and blind desire. And from the grave-pyre of our civilisation, the broken galaxy will see Horus rising, absolute and complete, as a new, true and terrible god.’

 

 

Sure, you can get major power from the warp by sacrificing/killing stuff. But nothing has ever suggested turning into a god; at best people (humans, marines and primarchs) turn into a daemon of a pre-existing god. 

 

And I'm afraid that Ruin isn't an emotion, with the entire idea of the warp as sentient species emotions made manifest. This is part of why this plot line is really dumb; it came out of really nowhere in the Heresy series or the Siege mini series, it isn't following the one underpinning concept of the warp, and it's certainly not following the only explained formula for the creation of a warp god. 

 

Maybe the actual book will expand further

 

 

[Just123456]

11 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Sure, you can get major power from the warp by sacrificing/killing stuff. But nothing has ever suggested turning into a god; at best people (humans, marines and primarchs) turn into a daemon of a pre-existing god. 

 

And I'm afraid that Ruin isn't an emotion, with the entire idea of the warp as sentient species emotions made manifest. This is part of why this plot line is really dumb; it came out of really nowhere in the Heresy series or the Siege mini series, it isn't following the one underpinning concept of the warp, and it's certainly not following the only explained formula for the creation of a warp god. 

 

Maybe the actual book will expand further

 

 

There have been a few characters who wanted to get and were working on Apotheosis. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Just123456

[Scribe]

31 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

We also find out he built the first Astartes, apparently? I... don't recall that ever being the case? ??? Why was this done? What purpose does it serve, beyond Abnett deciding to write a character or event 'properly'?

 

What?!

 

The first Marine, or the first Astartes, because that name I believe matters.

[ninja6fett]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

What?!

 

The first Marine, or the first Astartes, because that name I believe matters.

 

It just means he was part of the project. Other scientists like Astarte and Sedayne are mentioned in like the next paragraphs.

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'll quote verbatim because it's well before that (but also a good scene!):

 

Spoiler

She looks at one of the vats. It's a bio-structor unit similar, she imagines, to the flesh-weaving looms with which the Sigillite first crafted the fabled Astartes template. Perhaps these are the very machines on which the initial work was undertaken, the prototype devices from which the project's genetic manufactories were extrapolated.

 

It seems reasonably unambiguous. Which is, uh, odd? I don't think it's ever been suggested he was even part of the project, never mind its leading member.

[Scribe]

It's in Valdor isnt it? The Astartes are named after...Astartes. No?

[Nagashsnee]

I dont see a issue with this, Malcador oversees pretty much everything in his scope as the Emperors number two, all the people we know worked on the project still did.  Its just that at some point the big E wondered off to the next project and as ever left the day to day running to Malcador.  Heck he might very well have taken all the finished departmentalized parts of the astartes project and overseen them being put together. 

 

I see it the same way CEOS and companies will claim specific people 'invented' X product. What they always mean is oversaw/was top of the admin ladder.    We know it was a huge project and different aspects of it all had their own teams who reported upwards. I can totally see Astarte reporting to Malcador the same way Sedayne reported to Astarte. 

 

This is very much one characters in universe knowledge being a realistic view of huge projects. Like how people claim Elon Musk founded tesla. Its not true and to most people it doesn't matter, for them Tesla only started to exist when Musks actions brought it into the mainstream.  To them Musk=Tesla. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Lord_Caerolion]

I don’t see any real issue there, it reads to me as the Sigilite creating the initial proto-Astartes warrior, that was then developed into an actual thing by the scientist Astarte. He developed general “super-organs” that became the basis for the project. 

[Moonreaper666]

The Dark King is just another word for Everchosen. Samus did foreshadow who can be the Dark King/Everchosen in Vol 1

 

Mortis also forshadowed the Emperor's many follies

 

Spoiler

Anyone, even the Emperor or Abaddon the Despoiler

 

Both Rise of Ynnari Wildheart and The End and The Death ARE turning 40k into more like Fantasy

 

I can see now where Dorn and Perturabo get their flaws from. They are clearly the Emperor's Sons. (Maybe this is why Dorn wanted Loken to be part of Horus's Mournival Pre-Heresy. Someone who is not a Yes-Man)

 

The 5th Chaos God in 40k will be like Archaon, who is a Chaos God in Age of Sigmar. The one who doesn't participated in the Great Game. Someone who has the Undivided attention towards the Conquest and Corruption of Real Space.

 

Keep in mind that no one has actually specified What End and Who Dies in the Final Novel aside from the symbolic and physical glory of the Imperium which is kinda given

[Lord_Caerolion]

The hell are you talking about, Archaon is in no way a god in AoS. 

[DarkChaplain]

I was just about to say that. Holy mother of fanfiction....

 

One thing I want to point out regarding the spoilers:

 

Spoiler

If it really is stated by Malcador(?) that the Emperor got rid of some of his compassion/emotions during the whole power-up section, then that'd tie back to the Emperor (through his Custodes-mouthpieces) telling Sanguinius why he didn't remove his sons' and the Astartes' capacity to feel and suffer. It is stated clearly that the Emperor could have excised those human aspects from himself and his creations any time he wanted - and that he had considered it - but deliberately chose to hold on to them, as they are the defining parts of mankind.

 

Further, it brings to mind the shizo-Emperor as Guilliman saw him - vicious, vile, with a little good still left among the myriad opposing voices and reflections. If that's also partially down to the Emperor shredding his own humanity to pieces aboard the Vengeful Spirit, I don't see how a highly sociopathic, not to say psychopathic, Emperor reborn would be a good thing. He's probably a more stable entity bound to the Throne than walking about.

 

[Noot_Gunray]

30 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

I was just about to say that. Holy mother of fanfiction....

 

One thing I want to point out regarding the spoilers:

 

  Hide contents

If it really is stated by Malcador(?) that the Emperor got rid of some of his compassion/emotions during the whole power-up section, then that'd tie back to the Emperor (through his Custodes-mouthpieces) telling Sanguinius why he didn't remove his sons' and the Astartes' capacity to feel and suffer. It is stated clearly that the Emperor could have excised those human aspects from himself and his creations any time he wanted - and that he had considered it - but deliberately chose to hold on to them, as they are the defining parts of mankind.

 

Further, it brings to mind the shizo-Emperor as Guilliman saw him - vicious, vile, with a little good still left among the myriad opposing voices and reflections. If that's also partially down to the Emperor shredding his own humanity to pieces aboard the Vengeful Spirit, I don't see how a highly sociopathic, not to say psychopathic, Emperor reborn would be a good thing. He's probably a more stable entity bound to the Throne than walking about.

 

Spoiler

Malcador sees the Emperor cast away and throw into the warp "almost all of his hope, loyalty and compassion" in order to prepare for the final fight after giving up god-hood. But also that the Emperor hopes that he'll be able to reclaim that bit of his soul. Which Malcador comments will grow in the warp, just as the Chaos Gods grow.

 

[DukeLeto69]

Where’s that head exploding emoji when I need it?

[Just123456]

And as I said before, my only problem with Erda is that she was introduced too late. Besides that, she is great. 

[SvenIronhand]

I think I have some gnosis now. I must admit all of this is very esoteric, hence the choice of words. You lot either are going to like this or hate this, I think.
 

Spoiler

Abnett's working on mythic rules here, since that's the only rules that humans can really impose on the Warp. The Warp is anti-history; it 'happens' everywhere all at once. Hence why Slaanesh exists before their birth. Try to give me an exact date for the rise of Khorne, or the rise of Be'lakor. Can you conclusively say that Khaine isn't Khorne? You can't. It is the Real, as Jacques Lacan would put it. All we have to make sense of the Warp and its goings-on is mythic stories, or scientizing theories that work in some cases but not in others. Which brings me to the thesis: in the Siege, the mythic anti-history bleeds like a torrent into the historical - realspace - and the consequences are that paradox rules.

The Dark King and Star Child/Sensei are two sides of a coin, Warp-wise. When the Emperor casts off his "good" traits, he's doing so into the Warp. The Sensei are the Emperor at his best - slayers of kings, upholders of justice, helpers of the oppressed. It's the same impulses that led to the Shamans giving their lives for the greater good. But paradoxically, that selfsame part of himself is the part that leads to Ruin. The mass murder of the Thunder Warriors at Ararat, the Great Crusade, and the Heresy - these all have their source in the Emperor's 'road paved with best intentions'. All awful deeds committed in the name of the greater good.

As I theorized prior, the Heresy and its events have a ritual purpose - the ascent of the Dark King, be that the Emperor or Horus. Remember the Word Bearers' preparations for Calth? The summoning of the Octed "scrapcode"? That was done via ritualized murder. Think of the Heresy as a grand version of that. The Chaos Gods want (insofar as you can assign intent there) it to end with the Emperor as "master of mankind, by will of the gods". 

Finally, I don't think this is the 'definitive' or 'absolute' Siege of Terra story, the telling to end all telling. It's one text on that subject amongst many, one that gives us valuable knowledge but is inherently unreliable due to the influence of the Warp in its events. 

 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

Finally, I don't think this is the 'definitive' or 'absolute' Siege of Terra story, the telling to end all telling. It's one text on that subject amongst many, one that gives us valuable knowledge but is inherently unreliable due to the influence of the Warp in its events.

 

I think this just doesnt fly for me, and is a monumental waste of the last 22 years, by the time this is all said and done.

 

As to the rest of what you are saying, sure. Its a fine story, its probably going to end up for those who enjoy his style, to be a fine telling of his (Abnetts) story.

 

I dont think its going to end up being the story of the Heresy though, and to say that I find that depressing is an understatement.

[Roomsky]

I never thought I'd be pining for alternate cuts of a book. Can we get the editor's cut too though, please? The Kyme Cut? The End and the Death: Abridged?

 

The 3-parter can still be the canon events. But maybe we could also have an edition that functions as a novel? Perhaps one that cuts out Fo's in-universe attempts to waste everyone's time?

Edited November 6, 2023 by Roomsky

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

I never thought I'd be pining for alternate cuts of a book.

 

Amusing, as this is actually what I likely will do, physically. ;)

[EverythingIsGreat]

From the background we have had until the SoT Series I would not be so sure that the Heresy was "designed" to make anyone a god. To generalize in a big way, and according to GW background over the years, the Emperor's ultimate purpose was to starve Chaos feasting on human consciousness etc. It was said that more and more psykers were born pre-GC which would make the Emperor's task harder. 

Considering almost 40 years of development, it is remarkable how much of the lore has been stable, as there is overall business need to come up with "exciting, new stuff". Other IP has changed much more, check out for example how Apple's MacOS or Microsoft's Windows looked in 1987. The GW background has evolved, amended, embellished and occasionally superseded. But the whole idea of the Horus Heresy as path to somebody's godhood is fairly novel, assuming that it is actual lore and not a character saying/thinking something that may or may not be true. Looks like a plot device to me, not a background pillar.
 

[DukeLeto69]

Where’s that head exploding emoji when I need it?

 

but sad face! I was really wedded to the idea that the Emperor became a god by virtue of the Imperial Cult. He is worshipped by quadrillions of humans as a god ergo he becomes a god (as faith correlates with emotion). But now we have the Dark King drawing on the warp thing and wah wah wah I personally prefer the other idea!