The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

18 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Where’s that head exploding emoji when I need it?

 

but sad face! I was really wedded to the idea that the Emperor became a god by virtue of the Imperial Cult. He is worshipped by quadrillions of humans as a god ergo he becomes a god (as faith correlates with emotion). But now we have the Dark King drawing on the warp thing and wah wah wah I personally prefer the other idea!

 

There is no need to drop either. Hand Wave "Its the Warp." and you are good to go.

[Noserenda]

Honestly though, when I said Abnett was bad at endings, I didn't expect him to overcorrect this much :D

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Where’s that head exploding emoji when I need it?

 

but sad face! I was really wedded to the idea that the Emperor became a god by virtue of the Imperial Cult. He is worshipped by quadrillions of humans as a god ergo he becomes a god (as faith correlates with emotion). But now we have the Dark King drawing on the warp thing and wah wah wah I personally prefer the other idea!

 

I don't think the idea of "god" as presented in the Dark-King-as-god plot twist is similar to the idea of "god" as the propaganda-fit-for-the-masses of a repressive regime in M40 or 2023. But this is a philosophical discussion, so it doesn't really matter. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typos

[theSpirea]

Each part is approx 147K words yet Vol I is 663 pages and Vol II is 745 pages. So the book didn't beat The Fall of Cadia. 

[depthcharge12]

259 pages in and the groups that said, quite literally in the preceding chapter, “we shouldn’t be here” or “time no worky” are just repeating the same damn lines as they Mario pipe warp around the theater.

 

I just got done rereading another Abnett book, the first of the Gaunt’s Ghost series, and this book seems phoned in by comparison. I’m half convinced it was written by ChatGPT. In GG, every chapter has meaning and drives the plot. This…this is a strong enough filler, the Kardashians could inject it into their lips 

[Dornfist]

I'll be starting the audiobook tomorrow. When I finish it, I will be back with thoughts. Spoiler talks in this thread have been interesting to follow. I like the idea

Spoiler

of Oll and the Emperor finally chatting after so long.

But I think I'm going to be sad when I reach Sangy's

Spoiler

over the top death scene

.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, theSpirea said:

Each part is approx 147K words yet Vol I is 663 pages and Vol II is 745 pages. So the book didn't beat The Fall of Cadia. 

 

It has 50 more chapters than Volume I, with countless of them being microscopic. Lots of empty pages padding it as a result. The difference in pagecount really puts the paper waste into perspective...

[tgcleric]

Half way through. It's long but great. On reread I went from liking to loving EoD part 1.

 

I guess as someone who is primarily just a reader and has no preciousness about the old lore books or anything (for any franchise I like in general. Lore isn't anything I'm precious about at all) I'm mostly just fascinated by the sheer difficulty of trying to tie together a 60+ book series where about 3/4ths of it are borderline unreadable. 

 

If Abnetts ending was just readable and filled with nice moments I would consider it a literary coup. Cause I've had to really endure these past few years to get through pretty much any book not written by wraight, abd, or abnett.

 

So yeah. I'm a happy camper whose feeling like they didn't waste their time. Cause all the bloat and having to tie up endless non characters is what I expected. But I'm happy that abnett is doing genuinely interesting stuff with the book, and the amount of pathos and genuinely smart writing he is getting into the 1/2 of this massive tome so far is awesome to me. 

 

Pumped to finish part 2. And looking forward to part 3. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Why did Dan Abnett make me listen to Jain Zar being a Space Racist?

[Moonreaper666]

Interesting how 

Spoiler

The Dark King card becomes The Despoiler after the Emperor renounce his Chaos powers

 

Despite being a SOB Erebus's devotion to the Pantheon is real. Perhaps they are the only ones that understand the psycopathic megalomaniac he is.

 

I wonder which named Daemons will get involved in the Final Confrontation in Part 3

[Just123456]

I don't think Dan Abnett is bad at endings. Most of his endings which went bad were deliberately written that way for further stories. 

 

I hope to see more of the Perpetuals and especially Oll Persson in the last novel. Hopefully Oll Persson can have a memory of his youth in the Upper Paleolithic. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Just123456

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Just123456 said:

Hopefully Oll Persson can have a memory of his youth in the Upper Paleolithic. 

 

Why?

[Nagashsnee]

3 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

It has 50 more chapters than Volume I, with countless of them being microscopic. Lots of empty pages padding it as a result. The difference in pagecount really puts the paper waste into perspective...

Hey it was really cold when he was writing those chapters ok? This book is putting him under allot of stress. Plus its not the size of the chapter its how you use it...in the story.

1 hour ago, Just123456 said:

I don't think Dan Abnett is bad at endings. Most of his endings which went bad were deliberately written that way for further stories. 

 

So he doesn't write bad endings by accident, he writes them on purpose so you have to buy more books? How is that not worse? 

15 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Why?

Because seeing a caveman describe the death of the beast he is hunting as 'this is its end....and its death' will REALLY hammer it home, much more then any of the 100 other times. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Noot_Gunray]

Don't think anyone has posted these yet but the Busts from the book

[SkimaskMohawk]

Quote

Within the Sanctum Imperialis, which has withstood all assault for seven long months, and now a frozen eternity too, wounds are inflicted. In different zones and areas, deep in the core and far from the fighting on the walls, the lights begin to go out.

 

This isn't the first time this has happened abnett....

 

The daemon problem was a very real problem in echoes; it caused the retreat into the sanctum and sealing of the Gate. 

 

 

[caladancid]

9 hours ago, tgcleric said:

Half way through. It's long but great. On reread I went from liking to loving EoD part 1.

 

I guess as someone who is primarily just a reader and has no preciousness about the old lore books or anything (for any franchise I like in general. Lore isn't anything I'm precious about at all) I'm mostly just fascinated by the sheer difficulty of trying to tie together a 60+ book series where about 3/4ths of it are borderline unreadable. 

 

If Abnetts ending was just readable and filled with nice moments I would consider it a literary coup. Cause I've had to really endure these past few years to get through pretty much any book not written by wraight, abd, or abnett.

 

So yeah. I'm a happy camper whose feeling like they didn't waste their time. Cause all the bloat and having to tie up endless non characters is what I expected. But I'm happy that abnett is doing genuinely interesting stuff with the book, and the amount of pathos and genuinely smart writing he is getting into the 1/2 of this massive tome so far is awesome to me. 

 

Pumped to finish part 2. And looking forward to part 3. 

 

I was actually just thinking this as I was looking through old HH books. The level of anti-Abnett fervor here has always taken me for surprise, even now.

 

Nobody here seems to mind a very recent example of almost nothing happening in a Siege book (EoE) that was one hundred percent an author's digression into "how they would've done it" aka Blood Angels. And one of the most absurd criticisms of these is that the writing is good but too much of it. Literally the defining moment in 30k/40k lore, but better not write too many good words....

 

Meanwhile we've endured The Damnation of Pythos, the entire Death Guard saga minus Warhawk, the fiascos of Tallarn and Titandeath, Gav Thorpe's brutalizing of the Raven Guard and Dark Angels, the endless blandness of the Salamanders, and books 2 & 3 of the Siege series. And after all of that....hey Dan why can't you just fix this up real quick so we can all move on?

 

It isn't a waste of time to read more by a good author, about an event I've been waiting to read for close on 25 years.

[Nagashsnee]

8 minutes ago, caladancid said:

Nobody here seems to mind a very recent example of almost nothing happening in a Siege book (EoE) that was one hundred percent an author's digression into "how they would've done it" aka Blood Angels. And one of the most absurd criticisms of these is that the writing is good but too much of it. Literally the defining moment in 30k/40k lore, but better not write too many good words....

 

Meanwhile we've endured The Damnation of Pythos, the entire Death Guard saga minus Warhawk, the fiascos of Tallarn and Titandeath, Gav Thorpe's brutalizing of the Raven Guard and Dark Angels, the endless blandness of the Salamanders, and books 2 & 3 of the Siege series. And after all of that....hey Dan why can't you just fix this up real quick so we can all move on?

 

It isn't a waste of time to read more by a good author, about an event I've been waiting to read for close on 25 years.

Well you see that's because EoE has the fall back to the ultimate wall, fall of said wall, retreat to the eternity gate, battle for the closing of said gate and one of if not the most duels in the mythos (Angels stand) plus the start of the whole terra is failing into the warp which causes deamons to appear WITHIN the sanctum. So for allot of people thats quite a bit of stuff.  Book 7 was the book about the Eternity gate, and it delivered on that, and while i will happily debate the rest of it , itDID deliver on its central focus, Sanguinius stand at the gate, this can simply not be denied.  It also ignored allot of subplots this is true, but mostly things that are not strictly part of the siege like the perpetuals, for many this was a positive thing. 

 

Now EatD took the 3 book approach, for me its central focus is the action on the spirit, namely the two big fights and their aftermath. So book 1....failed to deliver it, book 2 took another 600 pages to deliver half of it (and since we dont get the aftermaths of the angels fall barely that).  So it opens itself to examination of where those over 1000 pages went.  And that's where the criticism starts.  The fact that the books are re writing previous books and the most glaring example of this is the deamons in the sanctum further this criticism. 

 

But I feel the main central thing you are missing is this, people criticize Dan Abntet BECAUSE they know he is a good author. They know what he can do, and they expect the best.  Saying look what Nick Kyme did wasting 3 books with the Salamanders means nothing, most readers dont expect any better, there is almost no potential to waste.  Gav Thrope siege entry wasn't the best, WELL GEE WHIZ I will call the Warhammer press and they can run it on page 17 with the other predictable news. 

 

But when people critique this book or any of its parts they are critiquing THIS book and its parts. The way it was written and the decisions the author and editor took. No amount of whataboutism will change that.  I dont care about the Death Guard saga that's on people who still trust their money and time to James Swallow to deal with.  

 

I would honestly LOVE for you to write up an in-depth review of why you liked the book, and will be glad others are enjoying it much more then I am.  But I expected better from Abnett, much better. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

Nobody here seems to mind a very recent example of almost nothing happening

 

I've been very vocal about it. EoE is a great Blood Angels story. It's a miserable Siege story. We're absolutely seeing where the editorial crew failed to keep their cats herded here at the end: ADB writes the 'penultimate' Siege book, and it's mostly flashbacks and callbacks. 

 

Quote

but better not write too many good words....

 

Viridian. Translucent. Euphoria. Supine. Cynosure. Petrichor.

 

There is a gulf between 'good words' and 'good story'. Abnett is a wonderful craftsman of words. His vocabulary, his skill with language - excellent. Sublime at points. But they're currently being thrown into the black hole that is End and the Death. I can appreciate good writing, and simultaneously critique the author for not writing them in service to anything.

 

Quote

Horus Heresy fat

 

I'm fine with that, because it was immediately obvious after the initial success that they wanted to branch off and tell a whole bunch of different stories with a whole bunch of different arcs. Some worked, some didn't. Some were fun, other's weren't. You could generally just follow what interested you, and that was perfectly acceptable. I think we can all agree that they're not all going to be zingers, subjectively or objectively. 

 

But we can and should expect better from the Siege. They put a stopper on the HH. They specifically said 'okay enough of that, here's where we get serious'. Do you remember all those wonderful photos of all the boys together, all the fluff about the great communication and collaboration? How this time, for real, they're gonna deliver on all of it? To then realise that so much of the Siege and authors being constrained was so Abnett could tell it HIS way is... unfortunate, is the nicest word I have. And that's been one of the chief problems through the HH: Abnett wanting to do it his way, his ideas, his characters, regardless of whether they were successful or not. He has returned to them, fought for them, over and over, and so here we are at the end, quite specifically not reading about 'an event we've been waiting for 25 years'. We're reading about the Dark King, or Oll Perrson, or the Inevitable City, or Random Guardsman 4122 (who disappears halfway through the story, never to be seen again).

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying 'I enjoy THE END AND THE DEATH'. You can like something, that's cool, but let's not pretend this is the culmination of extensive build-up and excellent plotting and stringent editing. This is the Abnett show now, whether you like it or not.

[lightinfa]

Finished the book last night. I absolutely loved EatD volume 1, but I have to admit that 80% of volume 2 is pure, unnecessary fluff. I really enjoyed the flavor and atmosphere of the vignettes in volume 1, but here they just became pure tedium. However, that other 20%, and especially the end, is spectacular. It's weird evaluating these, because I want to treat them as separate books, but in reality we're evaluating chunks of a whole book, written as part of one process. My hunch is once the book was written, a lot of the chapters were rearranged to make the three volume structure work, and I think that contributed to why volume 2 dragged so much - a lot of the more minor storylines and vignettes got dumped here to make volumes 1 (and hopefully 3) meatier.

 

I will try and get some more substantive thoughts together on specific plot points later. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by lightinfa

[lightinfa]

19 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Where’s that head exploding emoji when I need it?

 

but sad face! I was really wedded to the idea that the Emperor became a god by virtue of the Imperial Cult. He is worshipped by quadrillions of humans as a god ergo he becomes a god (as faith correlates with emotion). But now we have the Dark King drawing on the warp thing and wah wah wah I personally prefer the other idea!

 

A version of that idea survives in the book:

 

Spoiler

"For my King-of-Ages has done more than divest himself of godhood. In that shockwave of warp light, I saw something else, something perhaps only I was in a position to see. He has cast aside a fragment of himself.

 

My lord and friend has broken off a part of his soul. He has amputated that portion of himself that contains almost all of his hope, loyalty and compassion, for such things will become a hindrance when he faces the Lupercal. Those qualities might stay his hand, or make him hesitate if he is ultimately obliged to kill.

 

And if he is obliged to kill his son, then those qualities would afterwards, and inevitably, drive him to self-hatred and regret, and condemn him to the same, embittered path as Horus. He has excised those precious human aspects to further steel himself against the pain of what will come after, and the mandatory atrocities he will have to countenance in order to rebuild the Imperium. He has set those frail and cardinal virtues adrift on the tides of the empyrean so that they will not immobilise him.

 

And in the hope that one day, he will be able to reclaim them, and be whole again.

 

I watch that jettisoned fragment as it drifts into the void, just one more spark from this world-bonfire. All his hope, his mercy, his grace, his love, cast into the lightless tracts of space and time. That fragile asterism will, as cosmic ages turn, slowly grow by a coalescence of emotion and belief, just as the powers of Chaos grow."

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by lightinfa

[Marshal Rohr]

It’s going to be very jarring that the new focus of Black Library 40K novels will be the returning Primarchs searching for the Emperor’s Horuscruxes while the First Captain who lived uses his special unbeatable murder sword to stop them. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

59 minutes ago, lightinfa said:

 

A version of that idea survives in the book:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

"For my King-of-Ages has done more than divest himself of godhood. In that shockwave of warp light, I saw something else, something perhaps only I was in a position to see. He has cast aside a fragment of himself.

 

My lord and friend has broken off a part of his soul. He has amputated that portion of himself that contains almost all of his hope, loyalty and compassion, for such things will become a hindrance when he faces the Lupercal. Those qualities might stay his hand, or make him hesitate if he is ultimately obliged to kill.

 

And if he is obliged to kill his son, then those qualities would afterwards, and inevitably, drive him to self-hatred and regret, and condemn him to the same, embittered path as Horus. He has excised those precious human aspects to further steel himself against the pain of what will come after, and the mandatory atrocities he will have to countenance in order to rebuild the Imperium. He has set those frail and cardinal virtues adrift on the tides of the empyrean so that they will not immobilise him.

 

And in the hope that one day, he will be able to reclaim them, and be whole again.

 

I watch that jettisoned fragment as it drifts into the void, just one more spark from this world-bonfire. All his hope, his mercy, his grace, his love, cast into the lightless tracts of space and time. That fragile asterism will, as cosmic ages turn, slowly grow by a coalescence of emotion and belief, just as the powers of Chaos grow."

 

 

This is the Star Child background *option* of early WH40K/Ian Watson almost verbatim.

[StrangerOrders]

Will give a more detailed opinion later but dear god am I mixed on this book.

 

There is good stuff but the padding is awful, the pacing is horrible and if an editor looked at this, I want some of what they are having.

 

Would have been an okay book if only someone stopped Abnett from dissecting a few good chapters and intermeshing them together into a nonsensical 30 milisecond chapter abominations per section. 

 

That's not a story critique or even an author critique, this is the sort of thing editors EXIST to clean up.

 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

Now EatD took the 3 book approach, for me its central focus is the action on the spirit, namely the two big fights and their aftermath. So book 1....failed to deliver it, book 2 took another 600 pages to deliver half of it (and since we dont get the aftermaths of the angels fall barely that).  So it opens itself to examination of where those over 1000 pages went.  And that's where the criticism starts.  The fact that the books are re writing previous books and the most glaring example of this is the deamons in the sanctum further this criticism. 

 

But I feel the main central thing you are missing is this, people criticize Dan Abntet BECAUSE they know he is a good author. They know what he can do, and they expect the best.  Saying look what Nick Kyme did wasting 3 books with the Salamanders means nothing, most readers dont expect any better, there is almost no potential to waste.  Gav Thrope siege entry wasn't the best, WELL GEE WHIZ I will call the Warhammer press and they can run it on page 17 with the other predictable news. 

 

But when people critique this book or any of its parts they are critiquing THIS book and its parts. The way it was written and the decisions the author and editor took. No amount of whataboutism will change that.  I dont care about the Death Guard saga that's on people who still trust their money and time to James Swallow to deal with.  

 

I would honestly LOVE for you to write up an in-depth review of why you liked the book, and will be glad others are enjoying it much more then I am.  But I expected better from Abnett, much better. 

 

Yep this.

 

To once again see someone point out a book where an author did actually 'understand the assignment'...and yet here we are with the Second Book/Door Stopper of the 8th Book of the Series to Finish the Series...

 

1 hour ago, lightinfa said:

Finished the book last night. I absolutely loved EatD volume 1, but I have to admit that 80% of volume 2 is pure, unnecessary fluff. I really enjoyed the flavor and atmosphere of the vignettes in volume 1, but here they just became pure tedium.

 

I mean this is not exactly high praise, and for someone like me who though Book 1 (of Book 8) was already a slow motion train wreck this is horrifying.

[DukeLeto69]

19 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

I don't think the idea of "god" as presented in the Dark-King-as-god plot twist is similar to the idea of "god" as the propaganda-fit-for-the-masses of a repressive regime in M40 or 2023. But this is a philosophical discussion, so it doesn't really matter. 

Not 100% sure I understand your point but my point was that regardless of whether Big E set out to achieve apotheosis or not, I liked the idea that it happened anyway because so many people believe him to be a God by 40k that the energy/emotion of that belief manifests in the warp and turns Big E into a warp God anyway!

 

That then lends itself to two trains of thought:

 

1) It was always secretly the Big E’s intention to achieve apotheosis but he needed the human race to endure utter suffering (ruin?) in order for them to start believing in him as their saviour and God. Which could mean the HH was planned and deliberate (I always liked that concept because it is very Dune and Golden Path like).

 

2) The Big E was genuine in his rejection and suppression of religion and wanted humanity to escape those shackles but ultimately he becomes the very thing he was railing against. Which is kind of funny, to me!