The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

41 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Whatever struggles BL is going through these days, they'd be entirely self-inflicted and born out of hubris and bad management. Axing products, product types and going all in on artificial scarcity has a negative effect on sales, who knew.

 

The decline in shelf real-estate is real. I used to walk in and see quite a few books, plenty of the HH series, Primarchs, and so on.

 

Now? Maybe 4 or 5 books, tops. I dont know anything about a business, and keeping interest going though, so maybe this is all working out fine for BL. 

[Fedor]

7 hours ago, Just123456 said:

That would be a welcome change to his memories of mythology, recorded historical events, people and places. And hopefully there would be a defining point in his life during his youth in the Upper Paleolithic, like his tribal clan banishing him upon realizing he doesn't age and can't die. 

 

They could even have him killed for the first time by a rival perpetual tribesman called the Kurgan.

[tgcleric]

9 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Err, because he wrote the first book in what was then planned to be a 10 book series, and then a couple more after?

 

Horus rising does two things really well: it establishes the setting and tone of the crusade via the human characters, and it establishes the character of Horus. Its actually not a very good book otherwise. If you're not Horus or part of the remembrancer gang, then you're a cardboard cutout and bad at your job. And those two things it does well? Barely ever touched on again. 

 

McNeil has the most novels in the series; French and Haley tend to play the best with everyone else's work; Wright and ADB to better with the legions they're presented. They all have a better claim of ownership of the series.

 

I would guarantee you not a single author you mentioned would agree with that statement. 

 

In fact the reason he has the most ownership is because those same authors, editors and the entire team at black library wanted him to do the beginning and the main plot for imperial secondus. And then tasked him to do the massive midpoint for the siege and the actual ending of the entire series. So yeah. You would say that the people who had say on the ownership indeed gave it to him. 

 

Also not sure how french and haley play the best with other people's work, outside of being of a similar quality to the other writers.

 

I mean, French's PoD is a garbage follow up to all the wonderful flavor and character abnett did with Dorn AND the alpha legion. And it's just a mess of big similes and nonsensical plotting with a few decent moments. 

 

I mean, hell I liked Wolfsbane, but that's playing nice with Abnetts best achievement in this whole series - Prospero Burns?

 

Sure. 

 

And I adore ABD. But he is the author who most does his own thing. 

 

So yes. Abnett has the most ownership of this series if there is any to be had. And yes writing the first book which pretty much every author after him dropped the ball on is part of that. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by tgcleric

[SkimaskMohawk]

48 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

I would guarantee you not a single author you mentioned would agree with that statement. 

 

In fact the reason he has the most ownership is because those same authors, editors and the entire team at black library wanted him to do the beginning and the main plot for imperial secondus. And then tasked him to do the massive midpoint for the siege and the actual ending of the entire series. So yeah. You would say that the people who had say on the ownership indeed gave it to him. 

 

Also not sure how french and haley play the best with other people's work, outside of being of a similar quality to the other writers.

 

I mean, French's PoD is a garbage follow up to all the wonderful flavor and character abnett did with Dorn AND the alpha legion. And it's just a mess of big similes and nonsensical plotting with a few decent moments. 

 

I mean, hell I liked Wolfsbane, but that's playing nice with Abnetts best achievement in this whole series - Prospero Burns?

 

Sure. 

 

And I adore ABD. But he is the author who most does his own thing. 

 

So yes. Abnett has the most ownership of this series if there is any to be had. And yes writing the first book which pretty much every author after him dropped the ball on is part of that. 

 

I agree none of those authors would agree with my statement, because it's meant to be ridiculous; none of them can claim "ownership" of the series. 

 

The rest of what you wrote is equally as ridiculous, unfortunately enough.

 

The entirety of black library wanted imperium secondus? That's why it was never touched by that same team?

 

French and Haley seemingly try to incorporate other authors' characterization into their own if they're covering the same areas. Saying PoD butchered abnett's dorn and alpha legion is hilarious, since it's so off the mark.

 

ABD does his own thing too, no doubt. Never said he didn't, and have said he got flak for deciding to put a flashback for legion building in the second last siege book. And it was kinda deserved; it wasn't the place for it.

 

I'm really curious as to what other authors dropped the ball on post-Horus Rising. It was meant to be 10ish book series, so events were always going to unfold quickly; did Mcneil bungle the dream sequence a bit? Ya. Was Horus always going to go evil fast? Also ya; Abnett has them going to Davin at the end of Horus Rising. The pace of events was where they were meant to be at the time, which means our enjoyment of the Crusade setting was going to get thrown out. So what other balls were dropped? Not maintaining his characters? Most of them barely even existed since they were so shallow; they were a name with a line or two.

 

What got dropped?

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

What got dropped?

 

THE ASSASSINATION OF ERDA BY THE COWARD JAMES WORKSHOP

[Marshal Rohr]

You can disagree with my assertion Black Library is struggling but you can’t disagree with the investor report. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Prospero Burns is Abnetts best contribution to the series? His wonderful work with Dorn before the Siege? Other authors dropped the ball after Horus Rising, which showed the Sons of Horus as the vanilla-est of Vanilla Marines? This is satire, right?

[Nagashsnee]

You all don't understand, Dan Abnett is the best HH writer ever, yes really! Thanks to the heritage of Prospero Burns and Unremembered Empire and his myriad heroic deeds Abnett is the exemplar of the HH authors.  With a few fringe exceptions all the other authors want to be like Abnett and recognize him as their spiritual liege! 

 

Edit: Jokes aside, mods maybe its time to split this threat into a book review thread and wider this book in the HH discussion thread. They both have juice but this thread is getting pretty muddled. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[DukeLeto69]

The author tribalism is strong in this thread!

[Marshal Rohr]

I think ultimately no one is actually mad at Dan Abnett. I think we are all projecting disappointment this twenty year series never really found its feet and squandered a lot of potential. It’s like if Game of Thrones had alternated between season 3 and 7/8 every year.
 

And also every couple of seasons is Amazons Ring of Power and Wheel of Time, just not even the same universe. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[DukeLeto69]

1 minute ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I think ultimately no one is actually mad at Dan Abnett. I think we are all projecting disappointment this twenty year series never really found its feet and squandered a lot of potential. 

There are clearly some folks mad at Abnett. There are also folks who share the “blame” in Abnett and the Editor(s). There are folks who are a bit disappointed but think it is what it is sigh.  There are others who really like Abnett’s work but are thinking “three huge books, get outta here!” There are even some enjoying what Abnett has done.

 

What I find irritating is the whole “my fav author is better than your fav author” chat. That is totally subjective.

 

Then there is the “this isn’t what *I* wanted” or “it is not the same as the lore that was written on the back of a fag packet 30 years ago and has been mutable eversince”. It just seems so entitled.

 

I have not read any of the SoT novels since Mortis. I wanted to do a back-to-back read of the last three which is now five books! It is all rather daunting. But that distance has meant I have kept some objectivity. Where I currently stand the HH series has been a bloated mess, finale has been a bloated mess, and the finale of the finale has become a bloated mess. It is a shame as I bet if you took all those multi-millions of words, you could pare it down to an awesome story/series.

[lightinfa]

9 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Prospero Burns is Abnetts best contribution to the series? His wonderful work with Dorn before the Siege? Other authors dropped the ball after Horus Rising, which showed the Sons of Horus as the vanilla-est of Vanilla Marines? This is satire, right?

 

Prospero Burns is probably the best Black Library novel period. An absolute wonder of a book that I would put in my sci-fi pantheon. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, the vast majority of BL books don't aspire to be more than pulp, which is fine - I love pulp and I love so many of these novels. But what I love about Abnett is that most of his books are more ambitious - which doesn't always succeed - but Prospero Burns somehow manages to pull off a neo-Nordic skaldic prose-epic within the confines of this universe.

 

Now, I will confess, I have the luxury of coming to these books with very few lore presuppositions, so I completely understand the people who are frustrated with this book because it did not relentlessly focus on the attack on Prospero.

Edited November 8, 2023 by lightinfa

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, lightinfa said:

 

Prospero Burns is probably the best Black Library novel period. An absolute wonder of a book that I would put in my sci-fi pantheon. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, the vast majority of BL books don't aspire to be more than pulp, which is fine - I love pulp and I love so many of these novels. But what I love about Abnett is that most of his books are more ambitious - which doesn't always succeed - but Prospero Burns somehow manages to pull off a neo-Nordic prose-skaldic epic within the confines of this universe.

 

Now, I will confess, I have the luxury of coming to these books with very few lore presuppositions, so I completely understand the people who are frustrated with this book because it did not relentlessly focus on the attack on Prospero.

Even more amazing is that it was written when Abnett was having serious epileptic fits and then got diagnosed. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, lightinfa said:

 

Prospero Burns is probably the best Black Library novel period. An absolute wonder of a book that I would put in my sci-fi pantheon. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, the vast majority of BL books don't aspire to be more than pulp, which is fine - I love pulp and I love so many of these novels. But what I love about Abnett is that most of his books are more ambitious - which doesn't always succeed - but Prospero Burns somehow manages to pull off a neo-Nordic prose-skaldic epic within the confines of this universe.

 

Now, I will confess, I have the luxury of coming to these books with very few lore presuppositions, so I completely understand the people who are frustrated with this book because it did not relentlessly focus on the attack on Prospero.

 

It is interesting to see how the HH novels stand by themselves in the opinion of readers who don’t know the lore in detail. Several early novels in the series reached the New York Times bestseller list, a bellweather for the publishing trade. I don’t think the millions of readers such listing represents knew the lore even in general terms, let alone the minutiae discussed here. It’s not that BL had blitzed the media with any elaborate marketing campaigns either.

So, at least some of these books resonated with readers as good science fantasy period, irrespective of their place and continuity in the overall lore.

 

That is even more impressive once one realizes this is tie-in literature, where authors are constrained in a very definite way by IP decisions. An example that has been used often before regards the conception of the Horus Heresy. Game pieces (miniatures) especially metal ones, are an expensive proposition in both design and manufacturing. One can justify the cost better if they are to be used in different game scenarios. The easiest way to do this, is to split one set of pieces into two or more. The scenario that fits this is “betrayal”. That way you can have two (or more) opposing almost identical armies with a single (metal or plastic) cast for each piece.

 

The “traitor” space marines were there from the very beginning. It was a very clever idea that grew legs. And all this is just by using slow-as-molasses OI (Organic Intelligence).

Edited November 8, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
mistype due to OI

[DukeLeto69]

5 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

It is interesting to see how the HH novels stand by themselves in the opinion of readers who don’t know the lore in detail. Several early novels in the series reached the New York Times bestseller list, a bellweather for the publishing trade. I don’t think the millions of readers such listing represents knew the lore even in general terms, let alone the minutiae discussed here. It’s not that BL had blitzed the media with any elaborate marketing campaigns either.

So, at least some of these books resonated with readers as good science fantasy period, irrespective of their place and continuity in the overall lore.

 

That is even more impressive once one realizes this is tie-in literature, where authors are constrained in a very definite way by IP decisions. An example that has been used often before regards the conception of the Horus Heresy. Game pieces (miniatures) especially metal ones, are an expensive proposition in both design and manufacturing. One can justify the cost better if they are to be used in different game scenarios. The easiest way to do this, is to split one set of pieces into two or more. The scenario that fits this is “betrayal”. That way you can have two (or more) opposing almost identical armies with a single (metal or plastic) cast for each piece.

 

The “traitor” space marines were there from the very beginning. It was a very clever idea that grew legs. And all this is just by using slow-as-molasses OI (Organic Intelligence).

Hate to burst the bubble but you only need to sell 10s of thousands of books not millions to secure a NYT listing.

 

The reason later books did not get the “NYT Bestseller” blurb is the change in delivery from BL and the format changes. They were getting NYT when premiering as MMPB rather than staggered Ltd Ed, HB, TPB, MMPB. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

I don't know how many copies would have to be sold to make the list. They were listed in the MMPB chart, which to me indicates high-volume shipments. I also don't remember if the charts back then used hard numbers from sales scans or if they extrapolated from a sample of sales in a few hundred bookstores nationwide (I think the NYT sampled about 1500 bookstores in that scenario).

 

But the fact remains that they did make it on the list. And being on the list, further generated sales and word-of-mouth. It wasn't isolated, it happened a few times, which means the stories had momentum. Whether BL knew how to act as a book publisher/marketer is a different story.

Edited November 8, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo due to OI

[DukeLeto69]

1 minute ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I don't know how many copies would have to be sold to make the list. They were listed in th MMPB chart, which to me indicates high-volume shipments. I also don't remember if the charts back then used hard numbers from sales scans or if they extrapolated from a sample of sales in a few hundred bookstores nationwide (I think the NYT sampled about 1500 bookstores in that scenario).

 

But the fact remains that they did make it on the list. And being on the list, further generated sales and word-of-mouth. It wasn't isolated, it happened a few times, which means the stories had momentum. Whether BL knew how to act as a book publisher/marketer is a different story.

Oh I agree that being a NYT Bestseller is a marketing gift bringing in casuals beyond the core W40k player crowd. But I know for sure that a top 20 listing is 10s of thousands sold not millions.

[Scribe]

As Duke says, there was a time when several made it on the NYT list, and BL then changed distribution or whatever and ruined that.

[grailkeeper]

Part of me wishes they'd condense the whole series into 10 like the original plan. A bit like the director who cut all 3 star wars prequels into one (supposedly really good) movie. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

10 hours ago, lightinfa said:

 

Prospero Burns is probably the best Black Library novel period. An absolute wonder of a book that I would put in my sci-fi pantheon. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, the vast majority of BL books don't aspire to be more than pulp, which is fine - I love pulp and I love so many of these novels. But what I love about Abnett is that most of his books are more ambitious - which doesn't always succeed - but Prospero Burns somehow manages to pull off a neo-Nordic skaldic prose-epic within the confines of this universe.

 

Now, I will confess, I have the luxury of coming to these books with very few lore presuppositions, so I completely understand the people who are frustrated with this book because it did not relentlessly focus on the attack on Prospero.

I don’t really care that it didn’t directly deal with the attack on Prospero itself, more that it ham-fistedly tried to turn the Space Wolves into something they weren’t, and now even after having multiple other authors brought in to try to help salvage it, the claims still don’t add up. 
 

If you write the absolutely most perfect novel ever, with the most delightful of prose and sublime turns of phrase, as a Star Wars novel about the infamous servant of the Empire, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and his eventual downfall at the hands of the Jedi Master Jabba the Hutt, you haven’t written a good Star Wars novel. 

[lightinfa]

14 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I don’t really care that it didn’t directly deal with the attack on Prospero itself, more that it ham-fistedly tried to turn the Space Wolves into something they weren’t, and now even after having multiple other authors brought in to try to help salvage it, the claims still don’t add up. 
 

If you write the absolutely most perfect novel ever, with the most delightful of prose and sublime turns of phrase, as a Star Wars novel about the infamous servant of the Empire, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and his eventual downfall at the hands of the Jedi Master Jabba the Hutt, you haven’t written a good Star Wars novel. 

 

Let me slightly amend my claim then - "best novel published by BL" rather than "best BL novel." I can completely understand how it could be unsuccessful *as a 40k novel* by disrespecting the lore, but as someone who brought no presuppositions about the Space Wolves to the book, I found it to be completely and magnificently successful as a novel on its own.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I don't have proof in front of me, but I do believe Prospero Burns was one the HH books that made it to the NYT Best Sellers list in the top 20. Which perhaps enhances lightinfa's opinion of the book. As a WH40K novel it badly mangled existing lore; as a sci-fan novel it was above average. 

One could characterize BL's subsequent moves as ham-fisted at best. The HH franchise, which was gaining momentum, was a bit unceremoniously grounded thanks it seems, to business decisions. However, reconsider. The fact that this is tie-in literature cannot be overstated. At some point GW must have decided that it did not want to jeopardize their position as the big fish in a small pond (the wargame miniatures etc. business) by throwing resources at a small fish in a large pond (the sci-fi publishing business).

[tgcleric]

14 hours ago, lightinfa said:

 

Prospero Burns is probably the best Black Library novel period. An absolute wonder of a book that I would put in my sci-fi pantheon. As someone earlier in this thread pointed out, the vast majority of BL books don't aspire to be more than pulp, which is fine - I love pulp and I love so many of these novels. But what I love about Abnett is that most of his books are more ambitious - which doesn't always succeed - but Prospero Burns somehow manages to pull off a neo-Nordic skaldic prose-epic within the confines of this universe.

 

Now, I will confess, I have the luxury of coming to these books with very few lore presuppositions, so I completely understand the people who are frustrated with this book because it did not relentlessly focus on the attack on Prospero.

Yeah...

 

I think the only satire is people pretending they are reviewing the books and not just comparing synopsis to their headcannon of rule books for a toy game. 

 

Prospero Burns is just a great book. Period. I gave it to a few friends who don't care about warhammer and just like Scifi to read and they loved it. It's maybe Abnetts best book period. 

 

And yes. The two books post Horus Rising completely dropped the ball. Loken and Horus and the whole mournival are more or less the same non characters that frequent most of the black library. 

 

I mostly respond to the feedback loop echo chamber leading up to these books even before they release. I went back to see if it was this was before other abnett books came out and before I even knew of this website. And yeah. Same vibes. 

 

[tgcleric]

4 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

I don’t really care that it didn’t directly deal with the attack on Prospero itself, more that it ham-fistedly tried to turn the Space Wolves into something they weren’t, and now even after having multiple other authors brought in to try to help salvage it, the claims still don’t add up. 
 

If you write the absolutely most perfect novel ever, with the most delightful of prose and sublime turns of phrase, as a Star Wars novel about the infamous servant of the Empire, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and his eventual downfall at the hands of the Jedi Master Jabba the Hutt, you haven’t written a good Star Wars novel. 

 

What lore? Who cares. It's a bunch of rule books and conflicting nonsense. Historical fiction readers have more flexibility than some folks here and that's dealing with real history. Not fictional history.

 

The wolves in Prospero Burns excited me and fascinated me. Beautiful drawn culture and characters. If it broke whatever lore before, I couldn't care less as a reader. I like the lore in that book. And it's not other writers failing to salvage it, it's other writers just not being as good most of the time. 

 

EDIT: I'll leave this alone as I don't wish to derail the little community here. But I'll say that as an outsider it's amusing seeing the discussions about black library not in stores as much and so on.

 

The reason is simple. The books mostly aren't good. Lore isn't story. To make good novels, the "lore" has to be changed to fit the good story that will appeal to a broader audience. A lesson every historical fiction writer learns. A lesson every writer adapting a story to another medium learns. A lesson that marvel learns every decade when its stories become Ouroboros of lore and references until they restart it all over again. 

 

If getting even a single good character moment means throwing out a whole idea from some other text decades ago, then it should be thrown out. 

 

The spirit is what needs to be preserved. Warhammer is a universe too vast to be defined by "lore" scattered across rulebooks. 

 

Or you know. They can continue to write books to satisfy the few thousand people who remember what Rogue Trader said about the eternity gate. 

 

But it's not gonna get more or better books made. And it's definitely not gonna attract the best authors. 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by tgcleric

[Marshal Rohr]

Prospero Burns is a super weird way to spell Saturnine. Is that European?