The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Lord_Caerolion]

The other authors, and the times that Abnett has managed to write best-sellers that don’t break established lore, show that it’s not an impossible task. He IS a good author, nobody’s really denying that. 
Just, again, if you’re going to sell something, and were paid to write as, a Star Wars book, people are going to be upset when you start writing about that time Picard teamed up with Magneto to take down Jafar. 

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

The other authors, and the times that Abnett has managed to write best-sellers that don’t break established lore, show that it’s not an impossible task. He IS a good author, nobody’s really denying that. 
Just, again, if you’re going to sell something, and were paid to write as, a Star Wars book, people are going to be upset when you start writing about that time Picard teamed up with Magneto to take down Jafar. 

 

BL doesn't even print enough copies for the meager fans of the lore some of you are dismissing.

 

You think that attracting the best authors is even a relevant concept when Limited Editions used to crash their website?

 

Without the setting, without the history, without the lore, there is no series. No 30K release. No Black Books. No Siege of Terra.

[lightinfa]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

 

BL doesn't even print enough copies for the meager fans of the lore some of you are dismissing.

 

You think that attracting the best authors is even a relevant concept when Limited Editions used to crash their website?

 

Without the setting, without the history, without the lore, there is no series. No 30K release. No Black Books. No Siege of Terra.

 

Absolutely, I first fell in love with this universe by leafing through the 4th edition rulebook. I've wanted Siege of Terra novels since I first laid eyes since I first saw the Adrian Smith depiction of Horus vs the Emperor. I just don't find myself particularly attached to any particular prior description of these events. I come to setting largely for the beautifully ludicrous self-seriousness of its baroque grandiloquence (which is why I've been in love with Abnett's prose choices in EatD), and as long as the authors capture that vibe/atmosphere and tell their story well I'm happy to submit to whatever choices they might make.

[SkimaskMohawk]

1 hour ago, tgcleric said:

And yes. The two books post Horus Rising completely dropped the ball. Loken and Horus and the whole mournival are more or less the same non characters that frequent most of the black library

 

I reread Horus rising this summer. Loken and the mournival were already non characters in that book; not only were they non characters, but so were all the other Luna wolves, the Emperor's children, the few blood Angels and fists we meet, and Erebus. All the marines verged from bland to cringy in terms of dialogue; we're told a lot of things about a lot of them, but never actually shown it through their words or actions.

 

Horus did definitely lose his charisma from book 1, theres no doubt about that. But losing the wonder and playfulness is in line with his arc; he's getting crushed under the duties of his office, he's getting disillusioned with the end goal he's spent his life building, and he's feeling increasingly lonely. Oh, then he gets stabbed by a weapon tuned to kill him, and ensnared by chaos. Most people's better qualities tend to get suffocated by trauma.

 

As an aside on the whole "Prospero is a great sci Fi book, ignore that it's a really bad 40k book", understand that all sorts of stuff gets reviewed/rated on the category it's supposed be in. If it's a cooking show and the contestants are asked for a passable dessert and they serve up an exquisite rack of lamb, then they fail the challenge, regardless of how they regulated the internal temperature or the flavour balance. Or for video games; we'll see something like idk, Metroid Other M where it's a fairly serviceable 3rd person action game, but is a garbage Metroid game since it goes against the core ideas of the series.

1 hour ago, tgcleric said:

And yes. The two books post Horus Rising completely dropped the ball. Loken and Horus and the whole mournival are more or less the same non characters that frequent most of the black library

 

I reread Horus rising this summer. Loken and the mournival were already non characters in that book; not only were they non characters, but so were all the other Luna wolves, the Emperor's children, the few blood Angels and fists we meet, and Erebus. All the marines verged from bland to cringy in terms of dialogue; we're told a lot of things about a lot of them, but never actually shown it through their words or actions.

 

Horus did definitely lose his charisma from book 1, theres no doubt about that. But losing the wonder and playfulness is in line with his arc; he's getting crushed under the duties of his office, he's getting disillusioned with the end goal he's spent his life building, and he's feeling increasingly lonely. Oh, then he gets stabbed by a weapon tuned to kill him, and ensnared by chaos. Most people's better qualities tend to get suffocated by trauma.

 

As an aside on the whole "Prospero is a great sci Fi book, ignore that it's a really bad 40k book", understand that all sorts of stuff gets reviewed/rated on the category it's supposed be in. If it's a cooking show and the contestants are asked for a passable dessert and they serve up an exquisite rack of lamb, then they fail the challenge, regardless of how they regulated the internal temperature or the flavour balance. Or for video games; we'll see something like idk, Metroid Other M where it's a fairly serviceable 3rd person action game, but is a garbage Metroid game since it goes against the core ideas of the series.

[Scribe]

49 minutes ago, lightinfa said:

 

Absolutely, I first fell in love with this universe by leafing through the 4th edition rulebook. I've wanted Siege of Terra novels since I first laid eyes since I first saw the Adrian Smith depiction of Horus vs the Emperor. I just don't find myself particularly attached to any particular prior description of these events. I come to setting largely for the beautifully ludicrous self-seriousness of its baroque grandiloquence (which is why I've been in love with Abnett's prose choices in EatD), and as long as the authors capture that vibe/atmosphere and tell their story well I'm happy to submit to whatever choices they might make.

 

Cool, so as long as the story was good enough, you are fine with Jedi Jabba, striking down Emperor Obi-Wan. 

 

It's a position I reject fully, but at least you are clear enough.

[SkimaskMohawk]

More on topic than whether abnetts skill justifies his decisions:

 

Spoiler

‘A force-blade,’ [Loken] says. ‘It should be dead in my hands, for I have no gifts. I was tested throughout my upbringing. But power flows through it when I wield it. That power is not mine.’

   ‘I saw as much in the street,’ admits Leetu.

 

Lol. Lmao.

 

Rip gate of infinity Loken.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Spoiler

It’s just Future-Loken, He Who Is the End and the Death of Chaos, who is such a powerful psyker he’s unbound from the limitations of space and time, sending his power back to his past-self.

 

He was there when Horus kills the Emperor, which causes him to go Super-Psyker, and reach back in time to alter events so that it doesn’t happen.

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

reach back in time to do everything

 

My god, you're right. This isn't the End and the Death. I fully anticipate the Emperor and Malcador revealing themselves to be skilled guitar-playing time-travellers from circa M2,  This is the Bill and the Ted. Another Abnett masterstroke.

[Nagashsnee]

On a more positive note, this book does answer one big question I for one have had for many many books and in a genuinely positive if surprising way.

 

Spoiler

Namely where the heck has Kelbor Hal been and what has he been doing. Turns our Horus as part of his deal with the Dark Mechanicum had them prepare and gear up to rebuild terra/sol on the spot after the big E dies.

 

Kelbor Hal has got his bob the builder hat on and is literally waiting for Horus to call him over the Emperors/terras still warm corpse and ask him " Can we Fix it!?".

And the thought of a chaos Bob/Kelbor the builder happily re building terra to chaos/martian/Horusian new gothic chic makes me chuckle. 

 

Tho having them commit what i assume is a very large number of resources ( the re building fleet is noted to be MASSIVE) before you actually win was perhaps....not Horus most sound strategic move.  It does SCREAM to me of preparing for the Dark Mechs flight from mars and using their now conveniently already ready building fleet/army to make the first Dark Mechanicum strongholds.

 

We also get little snippets of Kelbors character and his beef with the Emperor which was nice.

 

 

Edit: While i liked and enjoyed the spoiled part. It still should have been done in previous books and not left for this one. Its just one more thing that got left too late and is now out of place. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Marshal Rohr]

Interesting Abnett preempted the plot of a Loki season two with LOKEN. What major comic book company did he work for again? 

[Lord_Ikka]

26 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Interesting Abnett preempted the plot of a Loki season two with LOKEN. What major comic book company did he work for again? 

Both Marvel and DC, plus a lot of work for 2000 AD. 

[Matcap86]

Right, just finished it, and man... This book did not need to exist. I was a BIG fan of the EatD part 1, really liked pretty much everything about it. But this one... ooof... disliked the 

 

Spoiler

Perpetual plot points

from their first inclusion in the HH. But to have such central story beats take second fiddle to a problem that gets created at the start of the book and then resolved at the end of the book with 

Spoiler

let's be honest "The power of friendship" but then warhammer

just to validate their existence in the series, seems such a waste. I really hope book 3 picks up again now this "plottwist" is resolved and these characters have had their (unmerited) moment in the spotlight and we're back on track. 

 

Also did anyone else eyeroll at all the very obvious 40k fanservice references??

 

Spoiler

Yeah we get it:
Ahriman is trying to get into the Library

The Dark Angels are fighting on The Rock

Abaddon is referenced as one of the ones who come to despoil. 

This is not clever, and beneath Abnett when he writes good books. 

 

All in all this might be my least favorite SoT book. Not because it's poorly written, but because it needs not exist and part 1 and probably 3 would've been better without it. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by matcap86

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, matcap86 said:

Right just finished it, and man. This book did not need to exist. I was a BIG fan of the EatD part 1, really liked pretty much everything about it. But this one... ooof... disliked the 

 

  Hide contents

Perpetual plot points

from their first inclusion in the HH. But to have such central story beats take second fiddle to a problem that gets created at the start of the book and then resolved at the end of the book with 

  Hide contents

let's be honest "The power of friendship" but then warhammer

just to validate their existence in the series, seems such a waste. I really hope book 3 picks up again now this "plottwist" is resolved and these characters have had their (unmerited) moment in the spotlight and we're back on track. 

 

Also did anyone else eyeroll at all the very obvious 40k fanservice references??

 

  Hide contents

Yeah we get it:
Ahriman is trying to get into the Library

The Dark Angels are fighting on The Rock

Abaddon is referenced as one of the ones who come to despoil. 

This is not clever, and beneath Abnett when he writes good books. 

 

All in all this might be my least favorite SoT book. Not because it's poorly written, but because it needs not exist and part 1 and probably 3 would've been better without it. 

Have to wonder whether this is ALSO (not exclusively) a victim of three act structure. Book 2 is act 2. By it’s very nature things are not resolved during act 2. However, splitting a single mammoth book into three fairly mammoth books probably necessitated some changes and additions to at least attempt to enable book 2 to be somewhat self contained.

 

I really think you cannot really fully critique tEatD until we have all three volumes and see the entirety.

[Matcap86]

12 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Have to wonder whether this is ALSO (not exclusively) a victim of three act structure. Book 2 is act 2. By it’s very nature things are not resolved during act 2. However, splitting a single mammoth book into three fairly mammoth books probably necessitated some changes and additions to at least attempt to enable book 2 to be somewhat self contained.

 

I really think you cannot really fully critique tEatD until we have all three volumes and see the entirety.

 

Agreed, but I can't help but wonder if a more focussed two parter that gets the job done would have been better (and probably easier to write) than what we got now.

 

Edit: I find I'm mellowing a bit now I've had a bit of time to think about it. I do like the themes, the ideas and concepts that are put forth. But man is it sometimes done hamfisted. 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by matcap86

[Nagashsnee]

32 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

 

I really think you cannot really fully critique tEatD until we have all three volumes and see the entirety.

This defense only works if you release it together tho. They cant space out the book in 6 month intervals, ask people to pay for each book on its own and then hide behind the fact that they need to be read together...cause then who was stopping them from dropping all 3 as a set day 1?  Its what irked me about the Abnett video when he said he wants people to read it as one book... like they sell sets. Its super easy to do, you put the three books in a box ( box optional) and sell them together. 

 

The trilogy will be critique as a trilogy. But it is totally fair to critique each part as what it is, an individual product cause that's how it was sold.  And the second you sell it that way THATS the only way you intended your product to be consumed. 

 

Edit-Same goes for the three act defense. If you don't have a way to make three acts...don't. Like this book especially is taking experimental risks, why tie itself to the three act structure?  If you dont have a way to split your good three act book into 3x3 acts....DONT. No one is forcing them to do any of this. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Matcap86]

2 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

This defense only works if you release it together tho. They cant space out the book in 6 month intervals, ask people to pay for each book on its own and then hide behind the fact that they need to be read together...cause then who was stopping them from dropping all 3 as a set day 1?  Its what irked me about the Abnett video when he said he wants people to read it as one book... like they sell sets. Its super easy to do, you put the three books in a box ( box optional) and sell them together. 

 

The trilogy will be critique as a trilogy. But it is totally fair to critique each part as what it is, an individual product cause that's how it was sold.  And the second you sell it that way THATS the only way you intended your product to be consumed. 

 

Edit-Same goes for the three act defense. If you don't have a way to make three acts...don't. Like this book especially is taking experimental risks, why tie itself to the three act structure?  If you dont have a way to split your good three act book into 3x3 acts....DONT. No one is forcing them to do any of this. 

 

3x3 acts...? Abnett Lord of Change confirmed. 

 

Edit: You know what I do love? I've already seen several community interpretations and artworks which makes me appreciate the story beats and choices a bit more. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by matcap86

[DukeLeto69]

4 hours ago, matcap86 said:

 

Agreed, but I can't help but wonder if a more focussed two parter that gets the job done would have been better (and probably easier to write) than what we got now.

 

Edit: I find I'm mellowing a bit now I've had a bit of time to think about it. I do like the themes, the ideas and concepts that are put forth. But man is it sometimes done hamfisted. 

 

Not even read it but I feel pretty strongly it should have been one book. Two was pushing it. Three is madness.

[DukeLeto69]

4 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

This defense only works if you release it together tho. They cant space out the book in 6 month intervals, ask people to pay for each book on its own and then hide behind the fact that they need to be read together...cause then who was stopping them from dropping all 3 as a set day 1?  Its what irked me about the Abnett video when he said he wants people to read it as one book... like they sell sets. Its super easy to do, you put the three books in a box ( box optional) and sell them together. 

 

The trilogy will be critique as a trilogy. But it is totally fair to critique each part as what it is, an individual product cause that's how it was sold.  And the second you sell it that way THATS the only way you intended your product to be consumed. 

 

Edit-Same goes for the three act defense. If you don't have a way to make three acts...don't. Like this book especially is taking experimental risks, why tie itself to the three act structure?  If you dont have a way to split your good three act book into 3x3 acts....DONT. No one is forcing them to do any of this. 

A fair criticism of BL release strategy but not Abnett writing a book that was too big to bind. Even an author with some power like Abnett has little say over how the publisher works or how they decide to market their books (look at Prospero Burns ahem). Clearly Abnett sees this as one book not a trilogy of books.

[Scribe]

11 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Interesting Abnett preempted the plot of a Loki season two with LOKEN

 

I dont get the reference, whats the Loki plot?

[Kastor Krieg]

I for one am stoked with II and cannot wait for III. Very sad I have only the 2nd half of the Siege series in hardback on my shelf.

[Marshal Rohr]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I dont get the reference, whats the Loki plot?

He can zip to different places in time. 

[grailkeeper]

There'd been very little Horus in the Horus heresy apart from the beginning and end. 

 

Very little Emperor too. That's clearly a choice. Although he did have a cameo in every early novel. There was a bit the first Dark Angel novel where he visited a marine in hospital after the marine took a bullet/grenade for him. It was ambiguous if it was a dream but still, hard to imagine the Emperor visiting someone liked that in one of the later books.

Edited November 9, 2023 by grailkeeper

[DarkChaplain]

To be fair, the early books had much larger Great Crusade era sections. The scene in Descent of Angels happened not too long after the Lion is found, and the Emperor was still at the forefront of the Crusade at that time. In the later series, he's mostly glued to the Throne, but he still met with some of his sons, or appeared in visions. But we also lost the Terra-Point of View for long stretches. We had The Outcast Dead, where the Emperor featured quite a bit, Deliverance Lost and later Praetorian of Dorn, Old Earth and The Buried Dagger, and of course Master of Mankind, but most books were on the galactic frontlines, a bit further away.

 

But I'd agree that there was a deliberate shift in how the Emperor was presented later into the series. The stakes went up, the Emperor grew more grey and the reader was more frequently asked to question his role, where before, we were given a sense of wonder and awe whenever he appeared.

[DarkChaplain]

For those who have read volume 2 already: Does the bloody annoying scene switching to mandatory Rann and Zephon action pieces continue so obnoxiously?

 

In volume 1, whenever got somewhat interesting, be it with Oll, or Sindermann, or Abaddon, I always got whiplash from the mindnumbingly dull action of the two-characters-with-models chapters breaking up the flow and tension. Did that get dialed back? Please tell me it did, because if it didn't, I might have to start skipping those chapters. They might generally be short, but they bore me to tears.

 

I mean, I get it. Things are brutal chaos. Rann is a badarse. Zephon is depressed and becoming a little thirsty. Rann beats another traitor dude. Things are bad. The clocks have run out. Rann has axes. Can we please get back to something that actually moves the relevant plotlines forward, rather than promotes two model kits and fulfills the action quota?

Edited November 9, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Roomsky]

30 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

For those who have read volume 2 already: Does the bloody annoying scene switching to mandatory Rann and Zephon action pieces continue so obnoxiously?

 

No, we're thankfully free of that drudgery. The book still tends to jump away from interesting scenes halfway through, but we get a variety of alternatives this time instead of two hollowed-out shells of what should be better characters.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Roomsky