The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

With the greatest respect to my learned fraters, surely at this point, one must accept that what came before is of fantastically little interest to Abnett. He has an idea of what Valdor should be, and it suits his narrative for this to be so - and so it is. Valdor is now a changeless automaton until he receives whatever impetus (or insight, or corruption) that gets him to be what Abnett needs him to be in Abnett's next book. 

 

Ugh, where is the sad reacts.

[DarkChaplain]

2 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Ugh, where is the sad reacts.

 

That's precisely the point I was going to make, and then I flip to the next page, just to find that you already said it.

 

It's sad because it's eerily accurate...

[Arguleon Veq]

Apologies if this idea has been mooted before, I wonder if the setup of Valdor in TEATD, to pay off in the next Bequin book, will result in launching a major Black Library series or at least a major expansion/wrinkle in the current setting?

 

it just seems there has been a lot of editorial control (major delay of Bequin 3) , the wholesale jettisoning of plot lines built up over the HH in favor of at the last minute major twists out of nowhere 

 

What if Abnett “being” Abnett is a clumsy attempt to spark life in Black Library, post Heresy?

[Scribe]

53 minutes ago, Arguleon Veq said:

What if Abnett “being” Abnett is a clumsy attempt to spark life in Black Library, post Heresy?

 

Sad, and completely unnecessary hijacking of a foundational story?

 

BL is 1000% responsible for any lack of 'spark' or 'life' at BL. They dont even release the :cuss:ing books to stores in Western Canada it seems. If you dont order direct, and then put up with the assinine fact they wont ship to you until it should be released, and therefore you get it late, you have to go to Amazon or something.

 

I went to Chapters yesterday. Siege Books? Nope. This book in particular? Nope. Meanwhile they have a whole section of Star Wars reprints from the Extended Universe.

 

There USED to be a whole section for BL. Primarchs, HH, SoT, Fantasy stuff, whatever. Not anymore its been this weird 3 year decline.

 

No, Black Library has all its own failings, Abnett hijacking the story for his own personal reasons, is just Abnett.

[TrevorLoLz]

Black Library is clearly not a priority for Games Workshop at this present time - they're milking the HH SoT cash cow while they can, but otherwise the release schedule is sparse, and has been for some time.

 

I don't know what the profit margin and ROI is for novels, but I can't imagine it's much unless sold in very high volume. What other series could they really produce that will create as much profit as HH? Abnett books are typically high selling, as are the other faithfuls like ADB, Wraight, etc. But other than that?

 

If they announce a Scouring book series, maybe? But even that, if not properly handled, just turns into more of a "40k but not" series, which the HH series was in danger of becoming at times.

[Nagashsnee]

3 hours ago, TrevorLoLz said:

 

 

I don't know what the profit margin and ROI is for novels, but I can't imagine it's much unless sold in very high volume. What other series could they really produce that will create as much profit as HH? Abnett books are typically high selling, as are the other faithfuls like ADB, Wraight, etc. But other than that?

 

If they announce a Scouring book series, maybe? But even that, if not properly handled, just turns into more of a "40k but not" series, which the HH series was in danger of becoming at times.

 

I mean BL worked for years before the HH. The HH just made then lazy and greedy. Most of their negative practices started during the HH boom. 

 

I just want to be able to buy my fiction without having to battle other fans/scalpers/their :cuss:ty website.  But how bad can the sales be when most things sale out in days?

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

But how bad can the sales be when most things sale out in days?

 

I believe its a cynical view on the quality of their own work/product.

 

"Whats our profit margin?" 70% "How much do we need to produce to hit exactly that with zero extra inventory?" X.

 

X is all they make then.

[Noserenda]

Im not sure its the Heresy series directly, the Black library is barely the same company it was when the series launched all those years ago. Things like the publications merger or the withdrawal from 3rd party sales probably would have happened with or without it.

[Krelious]

I was thinking of reading Vol 1 2 and 3 in one go for the book to flow better but now that ive scanned through Vol 2 to get the juicy bits in the later half my sense is that this 3 Volume Ending is just completely insane levels of unnecessary bloat.  It feels umcomfortably/clunky trying to read this thing because the book is over 700 pages long. Honestly I dont know what they were thinking not editing this thing properly I think, id be okay if each book was 400-500 pages but it seems like Vol 3 will likely be another minimum 600 page book that really needed to be edited down badly.  I mean its at something like over 1300 pages in the series and the Emperor hasnt even reached Horus yet.  Be nice if they came out with an abridged edition.  I think Abnett is a competent writer at times, but honestly I dont know if I can manage being in his world for over 2000 pages.  I think the way he wrote the duel with well the two big players in this book was excellent and couldnt have been better but outside of the major plots like Loken, The Emperor, Horus, Abbadon, im just not overly interested or kinda bored and it just messes with the flow of the book.  I was okay with 2 big books but 3 is just nuts.  I feel like the way this was written its like if you watched Star Wars and it cuts to the Emperor telling Luke about the Dark side, then it cuts to what the  Death Star janitor is doing as the way he cleans the toilets symbolically relates to the dark side, and then it cuts to Jabbas palace as Bib Fortuna is taking over, and then it cuts to the forest moon of Endor to have some Ewoks tell a tale of some ancient legend about an exploding moon, and then it cuts to Han and Leia having some talk about her being Darth Vaders daughter, and then it cuts to Vader throwing the Emperor down the shaft and then it cuts to Lando talking to his alien co-pilot about what going from a businessman to a rebel general is like, Then Luke has a long conversation with his dying dad where he tells him to rebuild the Jedi order and he takes 10 minutes to die while monologuing ,  and then the Deathstar blows up.  I feel like thats the way the End and the Death was written and im like guys are you for real? Did this thing even see an editing room? 

 

I mean its insane to consider the entire Dune series is something like 6 books where the entirety of that word count likely rests easily within Dan Abnetts the End and the Death. 

 

Im sorry but I dont need 2000+ pages to have The Emperor kill Horus and sit on a chair only for Rogal Dorn to say "If it takes 10,000 years for me to avenge you father I will in the year 40,000 with a sword, a claw or even a Warhammer!- if need be." and then Vulkan hands him the 40,000th Warhammer he has crafted and he calls it the Warhammer 40k.

 

Like yeah the opening books of the Heresy were pretty good but 54 books plus novellas, short stories, audiobooks, and primarch novels is a bit excessive before you even get to the siege, and I think one reason why they are doing this is they are trying to make it that the events of the Heresy mirror the big plan/role that Abbadon has for taking down the Imperium or having the Emperor come back, and it kinda feels like they padded things out waiting for the 40k timeline to mirror the siege of terra time line, that when the Indomitus series finishes we are going to get a second siege of Terra which they will play off as being poetic in we have this massive grand narrative we planned for decades for you arent we smart? Cue scene where Abbadon meets the Emperor aboard the Vengeful spirit and Dante is lying dead on the floor and its kind of a fair fight because zombie Emperor has to use a cane and a life support system and when that finishes Vulkan comes back and gives the Emperor the Warhammer 50k which promptly regenerates him and we have a whole new setting where for 10,000 years, comatose Deamon Magnus is strapped to the Golden Throne (with special necron wards from Cawl) and everyone slaps his shins tells him he didnt do anything wrong and laugh at him.

[Dornfist]

Update on my audiobook listen: so apparently

Spoiler

Horus is planning to offer gifts of all four gods to our quad squad: Sanguinuis, Dorn, Valdor, and the Emperor. Nurgle for Hawk Boy, Khorne for Dorn, Tzeentch for Valdor, and Slaanesh for the Emperor. Cos we have those four thrones to fill out.

. I can't help but wonder for the last one why that choice was made, when all I can think about are some

Spoiler

Slaanesh/Emps

memes.

[Sothalor]

Probably process of elimination - Horus got distracted matchmaking for everybody else and at the end (and the death) was like "Oh okay, here you two sit down in that corner and try to have a nice conversation."

[wecanhaveallthree]

It's because the Emperor is all about pride, and arrogance, and inflexibility, and perfection, and a complete lack of self-reflection.

 

That's why he's swayed in two pages to give up everything and do a complete 180 when a guy who stabbed him last time they met, explicitly over the direction the Emperor was taking, asks nicely. 

[Scribe]

25 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

It's because the Emperor is all about pride, and arrogance, and inflexibility, and perfection, and a complete lack of self-reflection.

 

That's why he's swayed in two pages to give up everything and do a complete 180 when a guy who stabbed him last time they met, explicitly over the direction the Emperor was taking, asks nicely. 

 

I'm really trying to compartmentalize this, aka put it in a dark corner of my subconscious, and ignore it....

[DarkChaplain]

I read the chapter with Amit insulting/apologizing to the Space Wolf dude yesterday evening and it left me scratching my head. It's almost like Abnett has never read a story featuring the Flesh Tearer. I mean, come on:

 

Quote

There is silence for a moment. Amit realises everyone is looking at him. He had spoken without thinking, as if seized by some sudden rage. He has no idea where that fury came from, or where it went, just as swiftly.

 

This is the guy who had such massive anger issues, he gave Sanguinius pause. He was buddies with World Eaters for a reason. Even going back to the Great Crusade, Amit has been troubled by seeing himself reflected in Khârn when he was lost to the nails.

And let's not even involve the Space Marine Battles stories set during/shortly after the Scouring featuring the guy and involving flashbacks or comment on the aftermath of Sanguinius' death, with Azkaellon et al.

 

Even looking back to the previous novel, it's like they're two different characters sharing the same name.

 

...nevermind that even the other Astartes in the scene were getting increasingly ticked off with the Space Wolf, so the question where his rage came from is moot.

[Lord_Caerolion]

He could have had it be any other Blood Angel, and it would have worked. But Amit? How can you have him be the one to go “oh wow, that anger wasn’t like me, I’m usually far more composed”?

[Scribe]

48 minutes ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

He could have had it be any other Blood Angel, and it would have worked. But Amit? How can you have him be the one to go “oh wow, that anger wasn’t like me, I’m usually far more composed”?

 

I will say, its starting to feel a whole lotta "Night Haunter" around my place.

 

 

[Urauloth]

Got the audiobook today. 18hrs and 30m. That's a hell of a lot of runtime, but not as long as Fall of Cadia. I wouldn't have minded that being longer, though; I'll see how I feel about this.

 

Edit: I like it so far, but

The Imperial ships in the Sol system are under "silence orders" to avoid detection, which means the crew have to avoid making noise aboard..? They're like. In space though.

Is this a reference to the infamous scene in the 1999 Wing Commander movie, did Dan forget how space works, or am I missing something here?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Urauloth

[Dornfist]

3 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

He could have had it be any other Blood Angel, and it would have worked. But Amit? How can you have him be the one to go “oh wow, that anger wasn’t like me, I’m usually far more composed”?

Agreed! I just listened to that chapter on the audiobook and I kind of prefer Amit's characterization in "Echoes" really.

[Nagashsnee]

15 hours ago, Krelious said:

 

I mean its insane to consider the entire Dune series is something like 6 books where the entirety of that word count likely rests easily within Dan Abnetts the End and the Death. 

Holy :cuss:, this just blew my mind, so the paperback page count of the Dune saga is  5382pages. The end and the death is looking like it will be 1800-2100 pages.   So we are looking like 35%-40% of the entire Dune saga.  Now i now comparing anything to Dune is unfair, but a case could be made that MAYBE, just MAYBE, these books could have been trimmed down a bit. If nothing else 'the end and the death' and 'clocks have stopped' could have been typed a few times less and not dilute the message. 

 

Tho i guess having Sammus pop up and get wrecked for what?5th-6th? time just had to be in here. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[Marshal Rohr]

6 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

I read the chapter with Amit insulting/apologizing to the Space Wolf dude yesterday evening and it left me scratching my head. It's almost like Abnett has never read a story featuring the Flesh Tearer. I mean, come on:

 

 

This is the guy who had such massive anger issues, he gave Sanguinius pause. He was buddies with World Eaters for a reason. Even going back to the Great Crusade, Amit has been troubled by seeing himself reflected in Khârn when he was lost to the nails.

And let's not even involve the Space Marine Battles stories set during/shortly after the Scouring featuring the guy and involving flashbacks or comment on the aftermath of Sanguinius' death, with Azkaellon et al.

 

Even looking back to the previous novel, it's like they're two different characters sharing the same name.

 

...nevermind that even the other Astartes in the scene were getting increasingly ticked off with the Space Wolf, so the question where his rage came from is moot.

He’s confused because it’s the difference between snapping at the hobo pestering you for cash and snapping at a coworker being too enthusiastic on a monday. Only one is justified. 

[Nagashsnee]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

He’s confused because it’s the difference between snapping at the hobo pestering you for cash and snapping at a coworker being too enthusiastic on a monday. Only one is justified. 

Both are equally rude and social wrong and should not be condoned? 

[Ubiquitous1984]

7 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

It's because the Emperor is all about pride, and arrogance, and inflexibility, and perfection, and a complete lack of self-reflection.

 

That's why he's swayed in two pages to give up everything and do a complete 180 when a guy who stabbed him last time they met, explicitly over the direction the Emperor was taking, asks nicely. 

Oh man I’m hesitant to even chime in here because I know you’re being tongue in cheek, but acktuuuuulllyyyy … wasn’t it expressed that the Emperor/Dark King used his new found god-like insight fuelled by his new warp-Uber powers to make ‘an informed decision’ (or something like that?) 

 

The problem being that we are told and now shown the Emperors/Dark Kings insights, so it all felt a bit rushed and lame.  

[DukeLeto69]

28 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

Holy :cuss:, this just blew my mind, so the paperback page count of the Dune saga is  5382pages. The end and the death is looking like it will be 1800-2100 pages.   So we are looking like 35%-40% of the entire Dune saga.  Now i now comparing anything to Dune is unfair, but a case could be made that MAYBE, just MAYBE, these books could have been trimmed down a bit. If nothing else 'the end and the death' and 'clocks have stopped' could have been typed a few times less and not dilute the message. 

 

Tho i guess having Sammus pop up and get wrecked for what?5th-6th? time just had to be in here. 

Although to be fair if Brian Herbert has his way the Dune saga will end up reaching 10,000 pages easy as we have series on the cleaners in the Arrakis palace, and the gardener.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Quote

wasn’t it expressed that the Emperor/Dark King used his new found god-like insight fuelled by his new warp-Uber powers to make ‘an informed decision’ (or something like that?) 

 

Yes, which is even worse, honestly. It is a literal deus ex machina.

 

It's the same deal with the Emperor 'casting out his compassion'. He has already made a reasoned choice to set out on this Dark King path. The defeat of Horus is something he's already decided. He hasn't picked up this level of power to save Horus, he's going there to kill him (and maybe the Powers into the bargain, who knows?). He doesn't need to shed his compassion, because he already made the choice - compassion intact - that the gloves were off.

 

Equally so, he already made the choice to embrace the power of the Dark King, having a pretty good idea of what will happen if he does (it's a terrible idea and goes against literally all his motivations, incidentally, since it's guaranteed to destroy humanity which the Emperor has spent forever ensuring won't happen). It's nonsensical that the previously-established Emperor would make this choice, but of course, this is Abnett's wild ride, so whatever. So he becomes essentially all-powerful and all-knowing (as Horus claims to be during the book), but... somehow that perfect insight doesn't extend to his own (illogical, against character) actions until the person he has the least reason to trust makes a very weak appeal about how, like, won't you reconsider?

 

Remember, the last time these two hung out, Oll made the exact same argument: power bad. No power! And then stabbed the Emperor when he was like 'okay maybe we should just keep it safe instead of immediately destroying it, just in case, maybe? hedge our bets a little?'. The idea the Emperor has forgiven the loss of a magical space language that could have advanced his plans immeasurably is exactly as believable as him just letting the woman who fed the Primarchs to Chaos wander around to continue interfering with his 'great plans'. Like, Abnett is saying that the Emperor is both totally iron-willed and ruthless and has always taken out any impediment to his plans, but also that he's just such a big softy that he couldn't lock Oll and Erda up somewhere (or kill them, horribly) so they'd quit messing with him. Arghhhhhh.

 

Anyway, Oll asks him to do something that he should already have done, inherently, since he's all-powerful and all-knowing. The very first thing the Emperor would have done with his awesome new god-power would be going 'okay what's my next best move, how will I use this power and knowledge to advance my plans'. According to Oll (and the text), the 'next best move' was give up his powers and, uh, die, since it's patently hopeless to confront Horus in this manner.

 

But he doesn't do that, or know that, until Oll asks him nicely to do something he would have already have done (or simply already have known upon ascending). Because the narrative requires it to be so. The Emperor is required to give up the power that is the only way to defeat Horus... on the word of a guy who betrayed him once and he has no reason to trust... so Chaos will win and everyone will die.

 

TL;DR It makes no sense from any perspective except Abnett (or Kyme, with a big whip) deciding the Dark King needs to go back in the box, so it does, with no reason for it to be so and it happens in this way because Abnett's characters need more cool moments and to be more important to the setting so you care more about Abnett's next book.

 

E: Let me, a humble word-loser, suggest a compelling alternative.

 

This book should have revealed and maintained the Emperor as Dark King. The double-whammy of Sanguinius being destroyed and the Emperor ceasing to be in any way recognisable as the Argonauts are torn apart by Erebus and the 'last hope' flickering out would have been a monumental ending. Just imagine the fan reaction to that. The speculation, the anticipation - where do we go from here? Chaos has played everyone, but even the Ruinous Powers might have pushed too far with the creation of the Dark King. We've got an endgame for the Great Game, and it's something nobody saw coming, nobody anticipated. A literal Titanomachy between two would-be gods, grappling for dominion and ascension, while the galaxy looks on in horror. IMAGINE THAT.

 

Now imagine Oll coming to this confrontation, broken John in tow, and seeing full well what's coming down the tube. The end and the death of everything. Imagine him standing between Horus and the Emperor and reasoning with him then, begging him to let go of power because he's crushing everything he tried to create and protect. Telling the man who'll win at any cost that victory isn't worth this price. Then we can have a moment of the Emperor, introspective, in a moment of hard understanding that he was wrong, that he can't win, that his plan was flawed. After fifty thousand years, he has to let go - let the cards fall where they may, let people make their own choices, good or ill, even if it results in the grim darkness of the far future.

 

(This is a part where I go actually insane, so I've spoilered it as hilarious nonsense, and not part of a 'compelling alternative'.)

 

Spoiler

And the only way to get there is to sacrifice Oll as well. A final, beautiful martyrdom for the eternal man, the unbeliever, the one who was never the hero, never the actor. The Emperor can't bring himself to do it, even after all the betrayal, all the missed opportunities, all the poison of years. He casts out his compassion to be a light in the future, so he can kill a man whom he could have called brother (THAT'S THEMES, YA KNOW). Boom, there ya go, Horus defeated, the Powers set back but not destroyed, the Emperor all but dead, dragged to his 'cross' to suffer for his sins, to see his dream debased and destroyed, to be tortured for ten thousand years - in hope of a better future, a brighter tomorrow. Nothing is set. Nothing is guaranteed. It'll be a hard, if not impossible, road. But he has to, like his old friend, have faith. Not in gods, but in people.

 

That'd make pretty good sense to me, but what do I know? I just complain about books on the internet.

Edited November 14, 2023 by wecanhaveallthree
i just love complaining ok

[TrillionSpiders]

30 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

That'd make pretty good sense to me, but what do I know? I just complain about books on the internet.

 

I feel like that would at least gel with everything else that's been established in the horus heresy series if nothing else. which as many others on this thread have pointed out is kinda the whole issue at play here irrespective of abnetts quality of writing, or the very likely lack of editing at play here to condense everything into a more reasonable package. as it stands though it kinda feels like were gonna experience these plot points with the dark king all over again in part 3 so that everything can actually limp across the finish line in at a reasonable enough pace.

not unless, and i know this probably reads as conspiratorial thinking, but not unless

 

Spoiler

the actual twist is actually ultimately just "and the actual person interred on the golden throne all along was horus" though whatever insane logic takes us there. at which point the one dude who wrote a fanfic about that idea is either going to be very happy or very pissed.