The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Marshal Rohr]

Dan Abnett made up the Dark King but Dan Abnett did not make up the concept The an Emperor might be somehow connected to the chaos gods or some kind or Imperial chaos god. That’s been around at least since the early 2000s and probably as far back as 2nd Edition. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Dan Abnett made up the Dark King but Dan Abnett did not make up the concept The an Emperor might be somehow connected to the chaos gods or some kind or Imperial chaos god. That’s been around at least since the early 2000s and probably as far back as 2nd Edition. 

 

Since "The Dark King" is a card in the Emperor's Tarot, conceptually it has been there since the very beginning, although the story was released in 2007.

[Ubiquitous1984]

1 hour ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

Since "The Dark King" is a card in the Emperor's Tarot, conceptually it has been there since the very beginning, although the story was released in 2007.

Can anything in that short story now be re-visited and re-understood, post volume 2?  It’s been so long I can barely remember anything about it other than Curze shanking Dorn.  

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

Yes, which is even worse, honestly. It is a literal deus ex machina.

 

It's the same deal with the Emperor 'casting out his compassion'. He has already made a reasoned choice to set out on this Dark King path. The defeat of Horus is something he's already decided. He hasn't picked up this level of power to save Horus, he's going there to kill him (and maybe the Powers into the bargain, who knows?). He doesn't need to shed his compassion, because he already made the choice - compassion intact - that the gloves were off.

 

Equally so, he already made the choice to embrace the power of the Dark King, having a pretty good idea of what will happen if he does (it's a terrible idea and goes against literally all his motivations, incidentally, since it's guaranteed to destroy humanity which the Emperor has spent forever ensuring won't happen). It's nonsensical that the previously-established Emperor would make this choice, but of course, this is Abnett's wild ride, so whatever. So he becomes essentially all-powerful and all-knowing (as Horus claims to be during the book), but... somehow that perfect insight doesn't extend to his own (illogical, against character) actions until the person he has the least reason to trust makes a very weak appeal about how, like, won't you reconsider?

 

Remember, the last time these two hung out, Oll made the exact same argument: power bad. No power! And then stabbed the Emperor when he was like 'okay maybe we should just keep it safe instead of immediately destroying it, just in case, maybe? hedge our bets a little?'. The idea the Emperor has forgiven the loss of a magical space language that could have advanced his plans immeasurably is exactly as believable as him just letting the woman who fed the Primarchs to Chaos wander around to continue interfering with his 'great plans'. Like, Abnett is saying that the Emperor is both totally iron-willed and ruthless and has always taken out any impediment to his plans, but also that he's just such a big softy that he couldn't lock Oll and Erda up somewhere (or kill them, horribly) so they'd quit messing with him. Arghhhhhh.

 

Anyway, Oll asks him to do something that he should already have done, inherently, since he's all-powerful and all-knowing. The very first thing the Emperor would have done with his awesome new god-power would be going 'okay what's my next best move, how will I use this power and knowledge to advance my plans'. According to Oll (and the text), the 'next best move' was give up his powers and, uh, die, since it's patently hopeless to confront Horus in this manner.

 

But he doesn't do that, or know that, until Oll asks him nicely to do something he would have already have done (or simply already have known upon ascending). Because the narrative requires it to be so. The Emperor is required to give up the power that is the only way to defeat Horus... on the word of a guy who betrayed him once and he has no reason to trust... so Chaos will win and everyone will die.

 

TL;DR It makes no sense from any perspective except Abnett (or Kyme, with a big whip) deciding the Dark King needs to go back in the box, so it does, with no reason for it to be so and it happens in this way because Abnett's characters need more cool moments and to be more important to the setting so you care more about Abnett's next book.

 

E: Let me, a humble word-loser, suggest a compelling alternative.

 

This book should have revealed and maintained the Emperor as Dark King. The double-whammy of Sanguinius being destroyed and the Emperor ceasing to be in any way recognisable as the Argonauts are torn apart by Erebus and the 'last hope' flickering out would have been a monumental ending. Just imagine the fan reaction to that. The speculation, the anticipation - where do we go from here? Chaos has played everyone, but even the Ruinous Powers might have pushed too far with the creation of the Dark King. We've got an endgame for the Great Game, and it's something nobody saw coming, nobody anticipated. A literal Titanomachy between two would-be gods, grappling for dominion and ascension, while the galaxy looks on in horror. IMAGINE THAT.

 

Now imagine Oll coming to this confrontation, broken John in tow, and seeing full well what's coming down the tube. The end and the death of everything. Imagine him standing between Horus and the Emperor and reasoning with him then, begging him to let go of power because he's crushing everything he tried to create and protect. Telling the man who'll win at any cost that victory isn't worth this price. Then we can have a moment of the Emperor, introspective, in a moment of hard understanding that he was wrong, that he can't win, that his plan was flawed. After fifty thousand years, he has to let go - let the cards fall where they may, let people make their own choices, good or ill, even if it results in the grim darkness of the far future.

 

(This is a part where I go actually insane, so I've spoilered it as hilarious nonsense, and not part of a 'compelling alternative'.)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

And the only way to get there is to sacrifice Oll as well. A final, beautiful martyrdom for the eternal man, the unbeliever, the one who was never the hero, never the actor. The Emperor can't bring himself to do it, even after all the betrayal, all the missed opportunities, all the poison of years. He casts out his compassion to be a light in the future, so he can kill a man whom he could have called brother (THAT'S THEMES, YA KNOW). Boom, there ya go, Horus defeated, the Powers set back but not destroyed, the Emperor all but dead, dragged to his 'cross' to suffer for his sins, to see his dream debased and destroyed, to be tortured for ten thousand years - in hope of a better future, a brighter tomorrow. Nothing is set. Nothing is guaranteed. It'll be a hard, if not impossible, road. But he has to, like his old friend, have faith. Not in gods, but in people.

 

 

That'd make pretty good sense to me, but what do I know? I just complain about books on the internet.

 

So I read this this morning, and it kind of simmered during some work calls.

 

All of what you noted here is of course better than what it seems has been provided. We can still continue to huff copium that "Book 3 will make it all make sense!" but....well just be mindful that you dont OD on that folks.

 

I will say however, that you also put me into a massive panic that Abnett is going to lean in REAL HARD on the whole Christianity angle, and make Ol actually turn out to be Jesus or something, at which point I will find the tallest building I can find, and jump out the window.

 

 

[SkimaskMohawk]

4 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Can anything in that short story now be re-visited and re-understood, post volume 2?  It’s been so long I can barely remember anything about it other than Curze shanking Dorn.  

 

The abnett story of the Lightning Tower has Dorn reflect on his what he's afraid of, and Malcador guides him through his thoughts until he lands on Curze. He's afraid of the truth of Cruze's visions and that he should have listened. The Dark King card comes up, but this is the totality of it:

 

Quote

‘Let’s see,’ said Malcador, turning the cards over one by one: the Moon, the Martyr and the Monster, the Dark King askew across the Emperor.

 

One other card, the Lightning Tower.

 

Dorn groaned. ‘A bastion, blown out by lightning. A palace brought to ruin by fire. I’ve seen enough.’

 

‘The card has many meanings,’ said Malcador. ‘Like the Death card, it is not as obvious as it seems. In the hives of Nord Merica, it symbolised a change in fortune, an overturning of fate. To the tribes of Franc and Tali, it signified knowledge or achievement obtained through sacrifice. A flash of inspiration, if you will, one that tumbles the world you know down, but leaves you with a greater gift.’

 

‘The Dark King lies across the Emperor,’ said Dorn, pointing.

 

Malcador sniffed. ‘It’s not exactly a science, my friend.’

 

No meaning is actually given to it other than "dorn thinks its bad", but it also comes sandwiched between Malcador's lesson about interpretation, so it kinda doesn't mean anything. It's part of the framing of Dorn's inner doubts and fears; he's desperately trying to hold on to the past and the idea of rebuilding post-victory, while being afraid they're going to lose, or win at too steep a price. It's why the Emperor has to come to him at the end of the story and say "stop doom scrolling the simulations; I believe in you when it comes to the real deal".

 

The only common theme with the modern Dark King is the concept of winning at too high of a price.

 

McNeil's Dark King story explores the view of the ends justifying the means; what matters the methods if it provides proper results? It's about Curze and the Night Lord ethos that has....basically been the theme of all their stories lol. The cards come up again, but the Dark King is instead just, "the King". Assuming it's meant to be one and the same card, there's no bearing put on it at all.

[EverythingIsGreat]

6 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

Can anything in that short story now be re-visited and re-understood, post volume 2?  It’s been so long I can barely remember anything about it other than Curze shanking Dorn.  

 

A couple of things about “The Lightning Tower”, the companion story to "The Dark King":

 

1. It lays very succinctly essential parts of the HH lore, in authoritative voice

2. The Lightning Tower tarot card symbolizes the “overturning of fate” or “achievement through sacrifice”

3. Dorn’s deepest fear is shown to be, in the end, his ignorance of what has to be sacrificed in order to achieve victory.

 

Interesting tidbit from “The Dark King”: Curze, an alpha++ lever psyker, was always pretending to follow the Emperor. That was a mask he started wearing as soon as he was discovered. Kind of funny the Emperor did not pick up on that… or maybe he did and I missed it.

 

Sorry to say I have to bring up Oll Persson again.

I recommend rereading chapter 16 of Mortis, especially the bits of a campaign “Before time was counted – Hatay-Antakya Hive, East Phoenicium Wastes”

Back then the guy who is now Oll and the warlord who is now The Emperor lead an army against what apparently was the Tower of Babel. Plenty of lightning issues (from the tower). In the end, the Emperor (the world’s first psyker/witch/something-mysterious according to Oll) is victorious. The tower itself is a complete lexicon of Enuncia, and the top bananas in there (a round number of 20 bigwigs) were using it to change things in ways that pissed the Emperor off. So after the victory, instead of relegating the whole thing to oblivion, the Emperor preserves the Lexicon to study it because, hey, imagine how much easier the plans would fall into place if we could just enunciate them properly. At which point Oll is like, you prick, you are sacrificing your so-called principles and righteousness to achieve a smooth ride? What the hell, end doesn’t justify the means moron! And the Emperor is like, don’t bother me you sanctimonious piece of [bad word].

So Oll stabs him and I guess no more love+kisses between those two. Well, John French doesn't exactly use the same language, but the gist of it is as above.

[MarineRaiderII]

I don't think all of this was in DA original concept of the final book. I think it was traditional . However , he had a lot he wanted to explore. He wrote several threads and then was told do what you want and how long you want. He writes it but not enough for 2 books which was the number it expanded to originally. He told BL you know I have some other ideas and concepts to get this to a trilogy. The dollar signs went off in all concerned heads and he basically explored every single thing he wanted to not only establish the lore as he wanted but set up his direction for 40k.

 

I have now completed a second reading and I cannot believe this is the same E I have read for almost 100 books all in. Him changing his mind is as stupid as when Corax returned and was arguing with Dorn about seeing his father and the E shows up through someone ( again" " I will not brook fighting in my palace" Really? I had flashbacks of Dr Strangelove. Wonder what he thinks of his palace now.

 

This entire sequence should not have happened, full stop. 

[Just123456]

As for what Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned said about the Emperor, maybe the Emperor frequently lied in modern lore, but Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned is before any of the modern lore for the Horus Heresy and Siege of Terra novels. And did the Emperor reality lie all the time in modern lore? The Primarchs knew far more about the Chaos Gods than people give them credit for. The Emperor asked what difference would it have made if he labeled the Chaos Gods and their Daemons as "gods" or "Daemons". The Emperor did openly acknowledge the Chaos Gods and their Daemons existed, but he just didn't call them "gods" and "Daemons" . 

 

The shaman backstory and Star Child lore in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and The Damned is actual history within the context of 1st edition. 

 

The Emperor being a genocidal mass murderer doesn't necessarily prevent him from loving the Primarchs as his children. There are mass murderers in history who were completely ruthless to the masses but loved their family. That doesn't make them any less evil, but they loved their families. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Just123456

[Just123456]

And the third volume will be coming relatively soon. I look forward to it. 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Just123456 said:

The Emperor being a genocidal mass murderer doesn't necessarily prevent him from loving the Primarchs as his children. There are mass murderers in history who were completely ruthless to the masses but loved their family. That doesn't make them any less evil, but they loved their families. 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Imperial Truth admitted to their being exo-planar xenos inhabiting the Warp, but is consistently shown as having depicted them as mindless predators at most, or just dangerous hallucinations almost akin to desert mirages. It absolutely didn’t openly acknowledge that the Chaos Gods existed under different terms. 

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

The Imperial Truth admitted to their being exo-planar xenos inhabiting the Warp, but is consistently shown as having depicted them as mindless predators at most, or just dangerous hallucinations almost akin to desert mirages. It absolutely didn’t openly acknowledge that the Chaos Gods existed under different terms. 

 

I think between telling people that exo-planar xenos  exist in the warp. The fact that everything that enters the warp (ships) need special shields or they will die. The knowledge of the navigators/psycana/astropaths on possession and the messy ends of warp use ( which were know to anyone of any rank in the crusade/legions), the existence of the sisters of silence as a specialist force of anti warp use, the many many battles and wars vs warp users in the crusade and the history of the age of darkness before the crusade.

 

Between all that saying the PRIMARCHS who had every single aspect of the above information at their beck and call being 'surprised' at the revelations that the warp is full of bad things that want to kill you is pushing it. 

 

The emperor never called the chaos gods gods...yeah their not, not to him or anyone who believes in the Imperial truth. The average citizen/soldier does not need to know about the hell realm, again 100%.  'mindless predators at most, or just dangerous hallucinations almost akin to desert mirages' is more then enough for them. But no one of any serious position in the crusade in any capacity that dealt with the warp could claim he did not know it was hostile and full of things that want to kill us all. Forget anyone with ties to warp use/travel. 

 

Its just compartmentalized information and BL not being logical with Imperial/Primarch/Legio knowledge.  You telling me Ferrus Manus/Perturabo did not know what a gellar field is? Why its needed? No primarch ever wondered why the navigators have entire social structures about how to interact with the warp and what happens when you dont?  The mechanicums top brass? The navies? The countless worlds that fought off the nightmares of old night?

Sanguinius and the Khan was 2/3 of the founders of the Librarius and the Khan knew full well the warp was FULL of hostile entities that want to corrupt/eat you. None of these dudes every put 2+2 together? 

 

When malcador and the Emperor say things like 'We told them enough' they mean it. They told the super smart and super well informed demi gods that the warp is evil, that the creatures there are hostile, and that anyone with eyes and a brain realizes when looking at the warp users/interacters in the imperium needs extreme care/protection to interact with. 

The Emperor TOLD the mechanicum do NOT mess with this stuff, i mean they knew it anyway ( as the vaults were already locked and forbidden) but he stressed it AGAIN. 

Primarchs, Top generals/admirals/admin. These people lead the crusade, they interacted with navigators and astropaths and battle psyckers and Mechanicum adepts constantly.  The only thing the Emperor did not do is tell them is 1) they call themselves gods 2) they might try to corrupt you.  What he did tell EVERYONE is the warp is dangerous and off limits do not mess with it. Which is warning enough. 

 

Allot of this is down to BL not using any sort of basic logic when they decided to make the legions and Primarchs utterly naïve to one of the most CRUCIAL aspects of  the imperial/crusade reality, namely the thing that all transportation and communication relies on i.e. the warp.  Tho the better authors did try and remedy this. 

 

Heck the crusade encountered enslavers! Literal warp based monsters that seek to invade and corrupt the material universe.  Like my dudes!

 

 

Edit: I am going to ramble on be warned. So the Emperor did not warn who about Chaos? He literally lead a crusade denouncing all religions/gods as false and harmful that must be eradicated.  So when entities from the warp pop up and claim to be serving gods what exactly MORE do you need to know to label them enemy combatants?  The 'exo-planar xenos' who you ALL KNOW are hostile/dangerous and all take great care to protect yourselves from just turned up and declared the Emperor false and gods to exist, my dudes if you are Imperial during the crusade era thats them basically TELLING you they are your enemy. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[EverythingIsGreat]

The above is I think largely correct. One distinction, that (inadvertently perhaps) justifies the setting: purging religion in realspace means dealing with the subjects of worship, the so-called faithful and their leaders. Purging religion in the warp means dealing with the objects of worship, the so-called demons and their leaders. That would be a different skillset. A somewhat in-between situation would be dealing with the wielders of warp power in realspace, whether these are psykers or sorcerers.

Edited November 15, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat
typo

[Scribe]

The cinder block has been acquired. 

[Urauloth]

How much of the "time and space are borked and the bits of the palace aren't where they should be" stuff is for dramatic effect, do you think, and how much of it is to avoid having to maintain continuity on all that stuff with the previous books? 

 

I jest, I think it's pretty effective so far.

[Nagashsnee]

2 hours ago, Urauloth said:

How much of the "time and space are borked and the bits of the palace aren't where they should be" stuff is for dramatic effect, do you think, and how much of it is to avoid having to maintain continuity on all that stuff with the previous books? 

 

I jest, I think it's pretty effective so far.

If the next book opens with Sanguinius walking into the throne room to his hanging corpse while Horus talks about the nature of time all will be forgiven.

[FarvegNugan]

It'sbeen.stated since the 2e brb everything we know about the imperium and emperor is a lie. So why be surprised at lore changing in the series about the truth instead of the Inquisition approved story.

Edited November 16, 2023 by FarvegNugan

[wecanhaveallthree]

Because it's not supported by the books that came beforehand. I'm not talking about some dusty White Dwarf article from the dawn of time, I mean that things that happened in the same series - even in the previous novel in that series - are discarded.

[Sothalor]

This whole thing badly needed some ruthless editorial reins.

 

As much as I enjoy the writing and wordsmithing in the various atmospheric fragments, they don't appear to be contributing to the overall core plotlines.

 

It's trying to cover too many things, provide too many POVs. This is like there've been two anthologies diced and spliced into what should have been one novel.

[Nagashsnee]

8 hours ago, Sothalor said:

This whole thing badly needed some ruthless editorial reins.

 

As much as I enjoy the writing and wordsmithing in the various atmospheric fragments, they don't appear to be contributing to the overall core plotlines.

 

It's trying to cover too many things, provide too many POVs. This is like there've been two anthologies diced and spliced into what should have been one novel.

I have been chatting to others on here about the book in PMs. And something we have talked about is the idea of taking the 3 parts and separating them into 2 books. 1 being an anthology which deals with the whole 'end of time and clocks'. And then a two part book following this that focuses on the core story elements without having to sidetracked as the tie in anthology did the atmosphere building. 

 

The anthology comes first and lays down the multiple pov world dressing, this lets people get their 700 pages of Abnett dictionary porn while also laying down the main themes of the fall of terra/a palace.

Then you drop your book which has a clear run at the core story themes/resolutions. 

 

I think by not making it seem like its one big book it would lessen the feeling of filler and people being forced to buy things they dont care about but still give the other side what they want. 

[Urauloth]

I loved the multiple PoVs personally.  I actually wish the second and third Siege books had been structured a bit more like this.

 

Also, considering how little I've liked the perpetuals so far, I thought their plot paid off well here. In general, having finished it, I'm really impressed. I like it better than part 1, which I didn't expect.

I didn't like the actual Sanguinius/Horus fight, but I don't think I've ever really liked a fight between Primarchs* and this one dragged.

 

(*Except for Savage Weapons)

[lightinfa]

4 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

I have been chatting to others on here about the book in PMs. And something we have talked about is the idea of taking the 3 parts and separating them into 2 books. 1 being an anthology which deals with the whole 'end of time and clocks'. And then a two part book following this that focuses on the core story elements without having to sidetracked as the tie in anthology did the atmosphere building. 

 

The anthology comes first and lays down the multiple pov world dressing, this lets people get their 700 pages of Abnett dictionary porn while also laying down the main themes of the fall of terra/a palace.

Then you drop your book which has a clear run at the core story themes/resolutions. 

 

I think by not making it seem like its one big book it would lessen the feeling of filler and people being forced to buy things they dont care about but still give the other side what they want. 

 

That's a very interesting idea - I'd love to see what that looks like.

[Fedor]

I've enjoyed both of them. There are plenty of bits and pieces worth criticising, but I've slipped into Abnett's maximalist, girthy, purple embrace regardless.

 

To hell with Rann and Zephon, though. I'm hoping Abnett has misplaced the memo that both are supposed to survive.

 

 

[Phoebus]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:32 PM, wecanhaveallthree said:

 

The concepts and themes are excellent.

 

Consider Vengeful Spirit where Horus is told that the Emperor approached Chaos as a 'would-be god', and that their anger with him is that of spurned mentors rather than enemies. The problem is that this just isn't reflected in the text anywhere else. If we had this constant, low-intensity idea that Chaos was pushing the Emperor rather than Horus, I think where we're at would feel a lot better. There's narration in this book about Chaos having spent the Heresy chipping away at the Emperor's support network and isolating him, which is fine in hindsight, but that's what robs it of punch: it's all hindsight. It's Abnett recontextualising events rather than having a definitive path to this point. It makes sense, but it's being ham-fisted in there rather than a natural progression. Forcing the Emperor to embrace the power he's always held at arm's length is a good idea. It's smart. It's very Chaos-y: forcing him into the Great Game, whether he likes it or not. I don't like it as much as it being a result of humanity's desperate faith after the events of the Heresy, but I guess it works well enough.

 

But without narrative support anywhere else, there's no meat to it, no bones. It's exactly the same as Erda. Erda as a character concept is fascinating and very cool. If there'd been hints of this erased genetic mastermind in the story before hand, another Perpetual or peer to the Emperor who helped him in his greatest creation - and his greatest betrayal - her reveal would have been amazing. Erda as an 'alternative' to the Emperor (and Malcador) would have been at the forefront of everyone's mind. But instead, she just drops fully-formed into the plot to dump some exposition, have Abnett 'solve' the big mystery of the scattering in a way that's disconnected from every other possibility/hint, and then be shuffled off, stage-left. 

 

It's just too late for these ideas. This is not the time or the place for them, and to make them fit, the series is bent around them - outright ignored or rewritten in parts, even. There's a bit in this book where we find out that Malcador actually was totally cool with telling everyone about the Warp and Chaos and asked the Emperor to do it tons of times, despite everything written previously to the contrary. We also find out he built the first Astartes, apparently? I... don't recall that ever being the case? ??? Why was this done? What purpose does it serve, beyond Abnett deciding to write a character or event 'properly'?

At the risk of getting away from The End and the Death, and the subjective opinions everyone has about volumes 1 and 2 (and Abnett's writing in general, which you're all entitled to), I'm so heartened someone brought up the lack of consistent narrative support across The Horus Heresy series as a whole--because I don't think one can offer objective criticism of what is contained in The Siege of Terra (as opposed to how it's written) without taking that into account.

We know, from the direct words of authors and editors alike, that Black Library (and, by extension, Games Workshop) didn't anticipate a 60+ novel series (and the multitudes of short stories, audios, etc., that were often appended to it). We also know, from the same, how they had to react to the popularity and demand of the series, and adapt the existing framework--which was very broad, and very sparse in detail--into a detailed narrative. We also know, through direct observation, that these efforts were uneven in quality and not always cohesive. While many, many plot lines were carried over across arcs, and the narrative was gradually brought to Terra itself, I don't think it can be convincingly argued that the plot as a whole was setting up anything more than the very broad strokes that the earliest material had described.

 

And that's not on Abnett.

 

We (the general "we," I quite liked The End and the Death--both volumes) might not like what Abnett has produced when given creative license to effectively fill in a blank space, but the salient point in all this is that he had a blank space to fill. Erda and the Long Companions are not my favorite part of these stories, but in their absence, and in the absence of the internal conflict the Emperor faces and the decisions he makes, The Siege of Terra was not set up to be anything more than a siege and a number of set-piece duels.

 

To put it into context, the priority ten years ago was Imperium Secundus: a narrative arc which, over the better part of three years, detailed how, in the absence of reliable Warp travel, three super-geniuses--one of whom had the means to reliably and consistently overcome said Warp travel difficulties all along--would sit tight in Ultramar and assume that, in the absence of any proof to the contrary, the greater Imperium had collapsed. To be fair, that window also gave us the wonderful Scars and The Path of Heaven, but It also decided that Vengeful Spirit and a novel about Iron Hands versus dinosaurs were more important than setting up narrative support for the final arc beyond "this is where Horus went to become powerful enough to face the Emperor."

 

By all means, rail about the pacing of the book(s), about who and what Abnett prioritized, and so on. But as to Abnett inventing new things to do the ending justice? Well, it takes two to dance, and Dan's partners had plenty of time to figure out how they wanted the steps to go. 

 

On 11/13/2023 at 8:06 PM, DarkChaplain said:

I read the chapter with Amit insulting/apologizing to the Space Wolf dude yesterday evening and it left me scratching my head. It's almost like Abnett has never read a story featuring the Flesh Tearer. I mean, come on:

 

 

This is the guy who had such massive anger issues, he gave Sanguinius pause. He was buddies with World Eaters for a reason. Even going back to the Great Crusade, Amit has been troubled by seeing himself reflected in Khârn when he was lost to the nails.

And let's not even involve the Space Marine Battles stories set during/shortly after the Scouring featuring the guy and involving flashbacks or comment on the aftermath of Sanguinius' death, with Azkaellon et al.

 

Even looking back to the previous novel, it's like they're two different characters sharing the same name.

 

...nevermind that even the other Astartes in the scene were getting increasingly ticked off with the Space Wolf, so the question where his rage came from is moot.

On the other hand, we may consider that, pre-Heresy, Khârn himself was a completely different person when lost to the Nails. 

Edited November 19, 2023 by Phoebus

[EverythingIsGreat]

I don't think that the Horus Heresy literature by BL can be fully understood without considering the Horus Heresy game supplement by FW (and by extension, the other core businesses of GW). It is a cart-and-horse problem otherwise. But the individual literature works can be analyzed on their merits. I think many of the criticisms leveled on this thread relate to presentation and character development, a valid approach. The continuity issues in the series are very likely not the authors' fault.