The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Phoebus said:

To put it into context, the priority ten years ago was Imperium Secundus

 

I'll once more make the case that Imperium Secundus was not a priority, and that's precisely why it flopped. It got axed almost immediately and took years between its introduction novel (which doesn't declare it a thing until its last pages) and the next book featuring it in passing, with the next novel effectively shutting down the major plot device and the last one being the sunsetting of the idea.

Really, it's a trilogy at best, with some supplemental short stories during that period, mostly due to the heavy short story focus at the time (which resulted in four or five anthologies in between book one and three!)

 

Even when book one released, Scars stole its thunder, as it was the only serialized novel BL did outside of Hammer & Bolter. Before The Unremembered Empire released, Scars was wrapping up, and while in the series it is numbered after TUE, it actually released earlier in pieces. And it was so good, that even without the myriad problems of Abnett's TUE, it overshadowed that book greatly.

 

Vengeful Spirit, Path of Heaven, The Damnation of Pythos are about as related to Imperium Secundus as Legion, Battle for the Abyss or Descent of Angels are to the Isstvan V Dropsite Massacre. They just released within the same overall era.

 

The Path of Heaven was the turning point, really. The relationship between BL and corporate had been in the dumps for the past few years (basically since a little after TUE), leading to delays, cancellations of books and the large gap in releases altogether, with tie-in for new kits over original works. After Path of Heaven, they tried wrapping up things really quickly, sometimes too abruptly. There's basically two types of books after: Wrapping up arcs and getting relevant characters to where they need to be for the Siege and... anthologies, bundling up the stuff from limited editions, eShorts and event exclusives.

 

The expansion phase was in the 20s of the series, not the 30s, where it largely stagnated and was oversaturated with anthologies (some of which collected really old stuff not even remotely part of "current" plotlines!), and the 40s was the sunsetting era. 50-54 was then the direct bridge into the Siege.

[EverythingIsGreat]

This is from memory, so please excuse any errors.

 

The Imperium Secundus may be getting some belated relevance in 40K. I believe Ahriman (? or some other anti-Imperial personality, will have to check when I can) managed to get a copy of Guilliman's Imperium Secundus 30K blueprint and is using it to try to turn high-ranking Imperials against Roboute and the Indomitous crusade. I will try to come up with a novel title.

Edited November 19, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat

[Phoebus]

59 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I don't think that the Horus Heresy literature by BL can be fully understood without considering the Horus Heresy game supplement by FW (and by extension, the other core businesses of GW). It is a cart-and-horse problem otherwise. But the individual literature works can be analyzed on their merits. I think many of the criticisms leveled on this thread relate to presentation and character development, a valid approach. The continuity issues in the series are very likely not the authors' fault.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Even if the first half dozen pages or so largely hinged on kinda hyperbolic takes on Abnett's work, people have a right to like/dislike things according to their tastes. I genuinely enjoyed the pacing of The End and the Death, for example, as well as the characters Abnett used for our perspectives. If anything, I thought a couple of characters,

Spoiler

most notably Keeler and Sigismund,

needed more than what they were shown doing, not less--and certainly not to be shown at all. On the other hand, I completely get why this novel won't be everyone's cup of tea.

 

51 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

I'll once more make the case that Imperium Secundus was not a priority, and that's precisely why it flopped. ...

With respect, I think you're missing my point, DarkChaplain. I'm not arguing that Imperium Secundus was the priority in 2013, or that it was optimally supported, or the only thing in that three-year period. I'm pointing out that, as was the case with other phases between Galaxy in Flames and The Buried Dagger, it was a priority over establishing the necessary narrative support for The Siege of Terra to either be something more than the incidents detailed in the old lore or something other than what Abnett decided on absent said narrative support.

[Scribe]

3 hours ago, Phoebus said:

We know, from the direct words of authors and editors alike, that Black Library (and, by extension, Games Workshop) didn't anticipate a 60+ novel series (and the multitudes of short stories, audios, etc., that were often appended to it). We also know, from the same, how they had to react to the popularity and demand of the series, and adapt the existing framework--which was very broad, and very sparse in detail--into a detailed narrative. We also know, through direct observation, that these efforts were uneven in quality and not always cohesive. While many, many plot lines were carried over across arcs, and the narrative was gradually brought to Terra itself, I don't think it can be convincingly argued that the plot as a whole was setting up anything more than the very broad strokes that the earliest material had described.

 

And that's not on Abnett.

 

To a degree, I can agree with you here. BL/GW have demonstrated as clearly as they can, that any kind of long term narrative planning is simply beyond them.

 

3 hours ago, Phoebus said:

We (the general "we," I quite liked The End and the Death--both volumes) might not like what Abnett has produced when given creative license to effectively fill in a blank space, but the salient point in all this is that he had a blank space to fill. Erda and the Long Companions are not my favorite part of these stories, but in their absence, and in the absence of the internal conflict the Emperor faces and the decisions he makes, The Siege of Terra was not set up to be anything more than a siege and a number of set-piece duels.

 

This however, is where I while walking my dog proclaimed "No, this is <> wrong." and he turned around thinking I was talking to him.

 

There was no need to 'fill in the blank' as there was no blank to fill in, and even if we care to pretend that there was...IT NEVER HAPPENED. There is no detailed fleshing out of the Erda arc. There is no meaning to the Ol arc, until FRENCH actually gives it one, in Mortis. This is the actual problem here with these additions that Abnett pushed, and yes they can absolutely be put as his feet.

 

He added these elements, and then went off to make GotG money or something. He didnt actually build them into the narrative, and its only now in Volume 2 of Book bloody 8, that Ol does anything. Fantastic.

 

The SoT could have, should have, been a limited set of books. We sure as hell didnt need 8, and we absolutely dont need 10+

 

 

3 hours ago, Phoebus said:

To put it into context, the priority ten years ago was Imperium Secundus: a narrative arc which, over the better part of three years, detailed how, in the absence of reliable Warp travel, three super-geniuses--one of whom had the means to reliably and consistently overcome said Warp travel difficulties all along--would sit tight in Ultramar and assume that, in the absence of any proof to the contrary, the greater Imperium had collapsed. To be fair, that window also gave us the wonderful Scars and The Path of Heaven, but It also decided that Vengeful Spirit and a novel about Iron Hands versus dinosaurs were more important than setting up narrative support for the final arc beyond "this is where Horus went to become powerful enough to face the Emperor."

 

Again, this is an answer to a question that wasnt even needed. The Ruinstorm, done. Abnett wrote a super hero buddy comic book novel instead of actually...doing anything. Left it up to others and...its not their problem. He put it there, he should have solved it. Or simply not forced it in the first place.

 

3 hours ago, Phoebus said:

By all means, rail about the pacing of the book(s), about who and what Abnett prioritized, and so on. But as to Abnett inventing new things to do the ending justice? Well, it takes two to dance, and Dan's partners had plenty of time to figure out how they wanted the steps to go. 

 

Comically, he invented these things, contributed to the derailment of the series, bloated out the ending, and...what? Erda is what? Ol does what? Imperium Secundus what?

 

It is not up to every other author, to fix his self indulgent additions to a story that didnt need them.

 

This SHOULD have been an epic Tragedy in the Greek Tradition. Perpetuals, Erda, Imperium Secundus?! Who cares.

 

The story is right there, but he didnt want to tell that one, or at least so it seems. I can barely choke down volume 2 maybe I change my mind (not likely based on spoilers) or maybe...*huff copium* volume 3 makes it all make sense?

[DukeLeto69]

All a bit analogous to project planning. Do we go for a Waterfall (PRINCE2) type approach or Agile?

 

Waterfall - you cannot easily build on opportunities as they arise as you are wedded to hitting clear milestones to reach the end goal which itself may underwhelm as by the time you get there it is out of date and any exciting new opportunities were deemed out of scope.

 

Agile - while allowing for flexibility it is too easy to get distracted by the new shiny and lose track of the overall purpose and end goal as you adapt the intent to include those new opportunities.

[Nagashsnee]

11 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

 

 

Even when book one released, Scars stole its thunder, as it was the only serialized novel BL did outside of Hammer & Bolter. Before The Unremembered Empire released, Scars was wrapping up, and while in the series it is numbered after TUE, it actually released earlier in pieces. And it was so good, that even without the myriad problems of Abnett's TUE, it overshadowed that book greatly.

See you hit gold here, you have brought together possible the two best books to exemplify the best and worse of the HH and why the siege and this book (both parts) is such a mess. 

 

On the one hand you have Scars, a book that is near universally adored, that took a less well know and murky part of the HH ( The Khan and the White scars) and did them justice! It took and respected what lore there was, build and added to it while constantly and firmly routing the story in the HH and the wider events. It had primarch fights, ghost primarchs and the lodges but it never lost focus on its mission, WHO are the white scars/the khan and WHAT role are they going/are playing in the hh. It had prospero, anxes, space wolfs. alpha legion, mortarion. But it never never ever lost its focus on whose story it was (pro hint its the Khans/White Scars). It added to their core identity and themes (speed and mongols in space) but added that more grounded real world feeling a novel needs (speed=logistical problems=cool character, mongols in space= tribalism=a legion build around its khan etc etc).  

 

Then you have unremembered empire, a book that has Sanguinius on the cover next to his brother and the promise of them setting said empire during the HH horus. But the book deals with ANYTHING but that. You have hulk vulkan and curze batman fighting page after page in duels where no one can ever truly win. You have the lion showing up and fake invading macragge, G man running around like a chicken without a head. Just an endless amounts of plot threads spanning what 1-2 days? A week? Just endless amounts of plots and side plots but none of it ever building towards a central narrative and certainly not the story the book promised us. And the very very very very end Sanguinius turns ups and it now exists and its over. 

 

One of these books had gone down as the start of what many consider the greatest narrative journey of the Heresy and spoiler its not about an empire no one can remember. Its scars which did all the work to not only be a great book but sets everything up for the story to naturally progress further into the heresy.  Then there's the other one, it set up...well the end of the Empire it founded in the last 5% of the book? Curze going on ANOTHER murder rampage in another book? 

 

@Scribe said it and its in my view 100% Abnett spent the HH series setting things up, but he never did anything with them.  He never told the story of the Alpha legion in the heresy after legion. He never showed us the reality and consequences of the Unremembered empire, he never took leman Russ on his soul searching quest after prospero burns.  He never wrote a book about perpetuals and their story/role in the HH after know no fear.  He would come in drop a hot steaming idea and leave.  

 

Now lets bring this all back to the book(s) at hand. The end and the death, suddenly Abnett wants all his various idea over the years to come together and end in a certain way. But no one and CERTAINLY not him has done the leg work.  To bring back Scars, he wants to Jump straight to Warhawk after scars, but you NEED path of Heaven to make the themes and narrative makes sense. 

 

So what does he do? He cheats, characters not where you want them? Space is collapsing everyone can teleport.  Dorn is surrounded in Bhad bastion? 'Somehow he broke out',  not enough time to do everything i want to do? Time broke!  Etc etc. This carries on into the story too with things like the sanctum being invaded by deamons, then getting better off screen only to be RE invaded again this book...sigh.

 

But even with all that if the books had stayed tied to the core story left i.e. the events on the vengeful spirit everything could be all right. But it doesn't, we have Basilus superweapon Fo and his side story setting up 40k things, god damn Vulkan moralizing chapters, etc.  And the central story has MEAT to it. You have beloved brothers killing each other, genetically engineered super bodyguards realizing they are failing their duty, Rogal Dorn realizing he is not going to make it on time, etc. AND STILL the central Emperor vs Horus showdown, with all the 'stolen power, betrayal of the gods' stuff that has been build up. You have the 9th failing to the rage for the first time and sallying out, Abaddon leading the fight to reclaim his fathers body and the ship, etc etc. There is so MUCH meat on these bones.   And after 1400 pages i am getting the clear feeling that much of this will not be covered or even worse rushed. 

 

Non of the additions or chapters are bad, non of them are things i would not find interesting to read, but this is a ending that people have been waiting for a long long time.  And I for one am not getting it. I am getting 1400 pages of Abnett bringing in more and more new ideas, and for me they are not needed.

 

Earlier in this thread someone was waving Echoes of Eternity around and talking about how its guilty of the same sins. But its fundamentally the opposite, echoes ignore ANYTHING it felt was not tied to its central story (pro hint again the stand at Eternity gate) to tell its story.  Part one and two of the end and the death seem hell bent on doing anything but. 

 

What I am getting is the origin story of the terminus decree. And I ask you each and every one, is the final siege of terra book REALLY the only/best/appropriate place for it?

 

Someone said they are hiring a new chief editor? After this book I can 100% believe it. 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Nagashsnee

[DukeLeto69]

I am beginning to suspect Abnett is not a Completer/Finisher

 

and anyway...

 

all this discussion just convinces me even more that the Horus Heresy should have been approached as a setting and not a story/sequential series.

[Phoebus]

17 hours ago, Scribe said:

There was no need to 'fill in the blank' as there was no blank to fill in, and even if we care to pretend that there was...IT NEVER HAPPENED.

With respect, that's a subjective opinion followed by the culmination of a larger problem that Abnett neither created nor could address on his own.

 

I'm not trying to say your preference as a reader doesn't count, but I feel absolutely, positively safe in saying that a 3-4 volume Siege of Terra would have been met with just as much frustration by your opposites. At the risk of adding my own subjectivity in, I think a (relatively) minimalist approach to the Siege of Terra could have only worked if the Horus Heresy itself had been far more reduced in scope. It wasn't, though, and I would argue that it shouldn't have been, but rather that it should have been more cohesive and comprehensive--both in terms of what the editors and authors chose to focus on, but also in terms of the various stages supporting each other.

 

So yes, readers are well within their rights to question the decision to introduce certain elements (we've been doing since at least Legion, where Abnett's concerned), and are just as entitled to criticize how well these are executed from start to finish... but they cannot be viewed as just an Abnett problem. If any author is allowed to introduce elements that only he ends up working on (whether do to a lack of desire on the part of other authors, or that same author being unwilling to allow others to work on them), that's just poor management/editing of the series as a whole. And again, this is an issue that we've seen throughout the Horus Heresy, whether we're talking about Thorpe and the Dark Angels, Kyme and the Salamanders, etc.

 

Quote

The story is right there, but he didnt want to tell that one, or at least so it seems. I can barely choke down volume 2 maybe I change my mind (not likely based on spoilers) or maybe...*huff copium* volume 3 makes it all make sense?

Maybe? I mean that sincerely. Abnett views The End and the Death as a single novel that should be read as such. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages of stuff they don't like.

[Scribe]

19 minutes ago, Phoebus said:

With respect, that's a subjective opinion followed by the culmination of a larger problem that Abnett neither created nor could address on his own.

 

I'm not blaming him for Kymes work, or the utterly unnecessary retcons of the Ravenguard arc.

 

Alpha Legion, Perpetual, prospero, Erda, Oll, Secundus?

 

He didn't build out any of that, and if I cared to look I bet we would find years where he certainly could have, but didn't.

 

Those are the things I'm talking about. Those are not gaps. They are half answers to questions nobody was asking.

[Scribe]

51 minutes ago, Phoebus said:

Maybe? I mean that sincerely. Abnett views The End and the Death as a single novel that should be read as such. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages. Some people won't get on board with that because it would mean more than 1,500 pages of stuff they don't like.

 

Oh and this?

 

I'm a little over half way through Volume 2, and I have the sneaking suspicion that it makes Volume 1, even more useless that it already was. I cannot fathom if this was 1 book, how I would feel going over that first 600 odd pages of utter filler.

[Phoebus]

With respect, I think you're missing my point, Scribe--or I've done a poor job of stating it (which wouldn't be the first time).

 

Your argument, as I understand it, is that Abnett introduced needless bloat, and failed to resolve the various plot elements it entailed.

My counterargument is that "bloat" is both subjective and not exclusive to Abnett; that, regardless how we view it, the people responsible for managing the series and its narrative are also responsible for its consistency, continuity, and completion (no, I was not aiming for three c's here!). I'm completely on board with you saying "this was done poorly." I'm not sure it's fair to say (and I'm obviously paraphrasing here, but hopefully accurately and fairly) "this should have never been done," or "to the extent that this should have been done, Abnett is responsible for seeing it through."

  

21 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Oh and this?

 

I'm a little over half way through Volume 2, and I have the sneaking suspicion that it makes Volume 1, even more useless that it already was. I cannot fathom if this was 1 book, how I would feel going over that first 600 odd pages of utter filler.

 

This is where subjective tastes can clash. I enjoyed most of both volume 1 and volume 2. There are certain elements I thought could have been better, ...

 

Spoiler

... such as the presentation/feel of the Inevitable City, or the arrival/revelation of the Emperor as the Dark King to Ollanius & co., ....

 

... but there wasn't a point where I was thinking to myself "I could have done without this, entirely."

Edited November 20, 2023 by Phoebus

[Scribe]

The whole "not exclusive to Abnett" is never going to fly for me.

 

Kyme finished his arc.

Thorpe finished his Raven Guard arc.

 

Abnett dropped these things, and walked away.

 

This is not the same. Not only that, but they are arcs which he created, failed to resolve, and forced into making pivotal to the story, to the point the real story of the Emperor, is being sidelined...for Oll?

[DukeLeto69]

10 minutes ago, Scribe said:

The whole "not exclusive to Abnett" is never going to fly for me.

 

Kyme finished his arc.

Thorpe finished his Raven Guard arc.

 

Abnett dropped these things, and walked away.

 

This is not the same. Not only that, but they are arcs which he created, failed to resolve, and forced into making pivotal to the story, to the point the real story of the Emperor, is being sidelined...for Oll?

Gonna have to jump in here because I think statements like this conveniently ignore real world issues affecting the authors.

 

TUE was book 27 and was published in 2013. Abnett did not write another HH novel until Saturnine book 58 published in 2020.

 

We KNOW there were reasons Abnett was not actively writing for BL for a few years. We know there was something of a disagreement b/w the authors and BL and the whole commissioning/publishing process. It wasn’t only Abnett being conspicuous by his absence.

 

So it is pretty hard to wrap up plot points and story ideas if you are not commissioned to write a novel for 7 years.

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Gonna have to jump in here because I think statements like this conveniently ignore real world issues affecting the authors.

 

TUE was book 27 and was published in 2013. Abnett did not write another HH novel until Saturnine book 58 published in 2020.

 

We KNOW there were reasons Abnett was not actively writing for BL for a few years. We know there was something of a disagreement b/w the authors and BL and the whole commissioning/publishing process. It wasn’t only Abnett being conspicuous by his absence.

 

So it is pretty hard to wrap up plot points and story ideas if you are not commissioned to write a novel for 7 years.

 

Now do the timeline for.

 

Legion

Prospero Burns

The whole Perpetual nonsense.

Erda being a hilariously late addition...

[Phoebus]

  

53 minutes ago, Scribe said:

The whole "not exclusive to Abnett" is never going to fly for me.

 

Kyme finished his arc.

Thorpe finished his Raven Guard arc.

 

Abnett dropped these things, and walked away.

 

This is not the same. Not only that, but they are arcs which he created, failed to resolve, and forced into making pivotal to the story, to the point the real story of the Emperor, is being sidelined...for Oll?

 

Completing the bloat is only a part of the equation, though. But even if we must be that strict about what counts for the purpose of this discussion, the Dark Angels arc not only had no closure, it barely had relevance to the main narrative--other than to provide a McGuffin, the extent of whose efficacy varied from novel to novel, according to the author's needs (rather than, if I recall correctly, any stated limitation of the artifact itself). 

 

Beyond that, I'm not trying to be combative, but I don't think it's necessary for you to make assumptions (with regard to Abnett just walking away or forcing his wants on the larger writing team) to argue your point.

  

26 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Now do the timeline for.

 

Legion

Prospero Burns

The whole Perpetual nonsense.

Erda being a hilariously late addition...

 

I'm not sure what the point of that request is. Legion and Prospero Burns were released before The Unremembered Empire and the issues DukeLeto69 references--though, to be more accurate, Abnett returned to writing for Black Library earlier than 2020's Saturnine, having already done The Warmaster (2017), The Magos (2018), and The Anarch (2019).

Edited November 20, 2023 by Phoebus

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, Phoebus said:

I'm not sure what the point of that request is. Legion and Prospero Burns were released before The Unremembered Empire and the issues DukeLeto69 references--though, to be more accurate, Abnett returned to writing for Black Library earlier than that, having done The Warmaster (2017), The Magos (2018), and The Anarch (2019) before returning for The Siege of Terra.

 

The point as briefly as it can be made.

 

Remove Mortis from the equation, how much word did Abnett put into resolving his various additions, over the life of the whole series?

 

I believe that if we look at it critically, Abnett did less to resolve his various arcs, than anyone else in the series, and some (Mortis) even did work for him.

 

Even Saturnine, did nothing but ADD MORE.

 

Now, we then look at the fact that Volume One resolved...nothing, and didnt even move forward, because it was a bunch of retread, and can you start to see that while others either resolved their own arcs, or even HELPED HIM (Mortis)...what has been resolved by Abnett with his literally thousands of words and at this point THREE FULL BRICKS in the SoT series with one more on the way?

 

People need to stop putting this at anyone's feet but Abnett, and Kyme/BL Editors.

 

Again, whats the point? He added more than hes resolved, and he did it over the life of the HH and now SoT while seemingly not even wanting to write about the HH story as it already existed.

 

And everyone keeps either giving him a pass, or pulling out the whataboutism that is utterly flawed anyway.

[Roomsky]

I think both sides have fair points. I long for the timeline where ADB got to write Nightfall (presumably replacing Pharos) and Abnett got to write Dreadwing (presumably replacing Angels of Caliban.) Maybe Abnett was even slated for the Fists v Alpha Legion conflict before he temporarily jumped ship. Who knows? Maybe he'd have done Wolfsbane too. I really can't blame him for dipping during short story hell, but I don't think that bloat and the Siege bloat can really be equated. Man didn't go anywhere this time.

 

In a 60 book series, the last book is really not the time to introduce new elements. The 8 books + novellas that is the Siege can, absolutely, but if we were getting The Dark king, it should have been seeded earlier. If we were getting spacetime has broken down, it should have been seeded earlier. Abnett got a book before now, and he seeded nothing that's currently padding this "final" installment. He wasn't even the one to reintroduce Ollanius and co. He seeded Erda, which was immediately resolved by Wraight and played no part in what's presently going on besides Leetu's presence. All of this is set dressing, it's atmosphere, and there's some resolution sprinkled here and there throughout. The frustration isn't, I think, just because he's taking his time now - it's that he's redoing what the Siege has arguably already wasted too much time on already. I would be standing fully by Abnett's choices here if the previous books were a non-stop sprint of plot, but they weren't. We've already laboured over and again with how crappy it is to be on Terra right now, and how many Morbillions are having epic last stands that history will not record. We didn't need it again (again (again (again (again)))) - if Abnett was allowed a 700 page book, he'd have more than enough room for Horus' thoughts on things, Malcador sits on the throne, Sanguinius dies, Ollanius does something, Horus dies, Valdor thinks about Pandemonium, and Loken does something. He'd have room to spare. 

 

Yes yes it's on Kyme and the other authors at the table too. I don't hate Abnett or these books. But I don't think there's an argument that all of this is necessary or even especially understandable.

 

[Phoebus]

  

27 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

The point as briefly as it can be made.

 

Remove Mortis from the equation, how much word did Abnett put into resolving his various additions, over the life of the whole series?

 

I believe that if we look at it critically, Abnett did less to resolve his various arcs, than anyone else in the series, and some (Mortis) even did work for him.

 

Even Saturnine, did nothing but ADD MORE.

 

Now, we then look at the fact that Volume One resolved...nothing, and didnt even move forward, because it was a bunch of retread, and can you start to see that while others either resolved their own arcs, or even HELPED HIM (Mortis)...what has been resolved by Abnett with his literally thousands of words and at this point THREE FULL BRICKS in the SoT series with one more on the way?

 

People need to stop putting this at anyone's feet but Abnett, and Kyme/BL Editors.

 

Again, whats the point? He added more than hes resolved, and he did it over the life of the HH and now SoT while seemingly not even wanting to write about the HH story as it already existed.

 

And everyone keeps either giving him a pass, or pulling out the whataboutism that is utterly flawed anyway.

 

With respect, we're going in circles now, and the salient point is that Dan Abnett does not (to my knowledge) have creative control over Black Library/Games Workshop. I have no doubt whatsoever that Dan has a great deal of creative influence, and that the studios, their editors, and managers, are happy to extend him freedom to introduce characters, concepts, plotlines, etc., but the permission they grant him cannot reasonably absolve them of their own responsibilities. You recognize that, above, but I'm not sure that this is being laid on anyone else's feet. Who else could it be laid on?

Edited November 20, 2023 by Phoebus

[Phoebus]

6 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Yes yes it's on Kyme and the other authors at the table too. I don't hate Abnett or these books. But I don't think there's an argument that all of this is necessary or even especially understandable.

 

I mean, there is... where the understandable part is concerned... it's just not one with which you're obligated to agree.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Phoebus said:

You recognize that, above, but I'm not sure that this is being laid on anyone else's feet. Who else could it be laid on?

 

Quote

By all means, rail about the pacing of the book(s), about who and what Abnett prioritized, and so on. But as to Abnett inventing new things to do the ending justice? Well, it takes two to dance, and Dan's partners had plenty of time to figure out how they wanted the steps to go. 

 

You are doing so, right there.

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

The whole "not exclusive to Abnett" is never going to fly for me.

 

Kyme finished his arc.

Thorpe finished his Raven Guard arc.

 

Abnett dropped these things, and walked away.

 

This is not the same. Not only that, but they are arcs which he created, failed to resolve, and forced into making pivotal to the story, to the point the real story of the Emperor, is being sidelined...for Oll?

 

Kyme even finished two arcs, with how The Iron Tenth got scrapped and he wrapped up the Meduson plotline - which Abnett kinda started too! - in Old Earth. Actually, that book wrapped up three arcs, another one of Abnett's is in there - the Cabal/Eldrad.

 

Abnett stepped away from writing for BL for years after The Unremembered Empire. He overpromised on various projects he wouldn't deliver (Interceptor City is still not here, Pariah to Penitent was what, 8 or so years, the last Gaunt's Ghosts arc (til now) was on ice for ages and so forth, and his follow-up to Brothers of the Snake got handed first to his wife and then to Matthew Farrer, iirc, who finally delivered it as a two-parter in recent history), and his story beats had to be picked up by others (like Kyme, who as an editor at BL probably had a decent enough idea on what the ideas for these were or where they were headed) or were fridged.

 

Oll and co got fridged from 2016 to Mortis in 2021 without any follow-up, despite many anthologies, including a pre-Siege one, to feature him in.

Between these two appearances of Oll's, Abnett wrote....

 

The Warmaster (2017)

The Magos (2018)

The Anarch (2019)

Saturnine (2020)

Penitent (2021)

Sabbat War (2021, anthology, author + editor)

 

Surely, there would've been an opportunity to write an Oll short story for one of the Advent calendar series in there? Or anything at all? Instead of letting him hop through time and space off-screen until he was needed again?

 

Abnett himself didn't even touch Oll in Saturnine, the book before Mortis, and left it to John French to reintroduce Oll and his crew. Instead, he thought he was being cute by adding "Olly Piers" as the Guardsman who stood up to Horus but actually it's just a World Eater and propaganda makes it bigger than it is but actually he ends up standing up against Angron just that this part wasn't recorded in the end.... WHEN HE ALREADY HAD AN OLLANIUS THE PIOUS OF HIS OWN PRIOR MAKING. Who he didn't bother bringing into the Siege arc himself because he was busy introducing Erda instead, who got killed off in her next appearance. Another thing Abnett never substantially touched upon again.

Edited November 20, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

Kyme even finished two arcs, with how The Iron Tenth got scrapped and he wrapped up the Meduson plotline - which Abnett kinda started too! - in Old Earth. Actually, that book wrapped up three arcs, another one of Abnett's is in there - the Cabal/Eldrad.

 

[cheywood]

I think there are multiple truths here:

 

1. Abnett didn’t have the opportunity to write all the books he wanted to. It’s not his fault BL broke down for a time and interfered with his plans for the Heresy. We can only speculate on how things would’ve looked exactly, but it’s easy to imagine a world in which Erda gets introduced earlier and Abnett’s various pet characters see proper development to the point that their prominence in the finale is justified.
2. The fact that Abnett seemingly hasn’t adjusted his plans much, and is sticking with his characters and plotlines even though they’re largely out of left field/the background, is hard to justify. He’s making it work well enough for me, as an unabashed fan of his writing, but it’s clear that others very understandably disagree. There must’ve been a better way for him to go about it.

[Just123456]

On 11/15/2023 at 12:18 AM, Lord_Caerolion said:

The Imperial Truth admitted to their being exo-planar xenos inhabiting the Warp, but is consistently shown as having depicted them as mindless predators at most, or just dangerous hallucinations almost akin to desert mirages. It absolutely didn’t openly acknowledge that the Chaos Gods existed under different terms. 

Its debatable whether the Chaos Gods are truly sentient. From the Emperor's point of view, they aren't gods. 

 

The Emperor asked what difference would it have made if he labeled the Chaos Gods and their Daemons as "gods" or "Daemons". He did openly acknowledge they existed, but denied and thought they weren't gods. 

[Just123456]

On 11/16/2023 at 1:27 PM, wecanhaveallthree said:

Because it's not supported by the books that came beforehand. I'm not talking about some dusty White Dwarf article from the dawn of time, I mean that things that happened in the same series - even in the previous novel in that series - are discarded.

The books being told from an in-universe perspective was not introduced to the setting until 3rd edition, which is why 3rd edition was especially big on unreliable narrators. 

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Just123456