The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Roomsky]

Just wanna toss in that people come to these forums for all sorts of reasons. B & C is often critical, yes, but rarely is it anything but an honest response. There are plenty who seek a more detailed and critical discussion than can be found on reddit, but there is still a ton of positive discussion here. We also tend to actually engage with each other instead of, say, my suggesting the Dark King resolution was mishandled and only getting downvotes instead of an actual rebuttal.

 

Do some Fraters jump the Gun? Yes. Are some Fraters biased? Yes. But I hardly see anything that makes us uniquely unwelcoming, that's every forum ever. A detailed, honest review is always more valuable than huffing copium. Especially when even this book's most vocal detractors admit what Abnett did well.

 

Anyway I agree Prospero Burns was Abnett's best Heresy contribution *ducks bullet*

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Anyway I agree Prospero Burns was Abnett's best Heresy contribution *ducks bullet*

 

*pew pew*

[System Sound]

27 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

*pew pew*

More like a *wet leopard growl*

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@DukeLeto69

 

For sure it's a marketing decision with the name; bringing up a thousand sons was another point of Prospero Burns actually being part of a series, and to show that Goodreads scores don't really mean much when we're talking about "being the best in the series". 

 

 

I'm going to try my best to keep it from being an all out ramble but...you know. 

 

There's nuance and stuff think about. A good, or at least, inoffensive characterization, plot point, or foreshadowed idea should absolutely be used as a blueprint.

 

We saw this with Horus rising with Horus' fears and responsibilities, and Erebus' manipulation and set up for davin; all of this was respected. Did McNeil do a worse job with the human characters? Ya. Did he bungle the dream sequence and make Horus look dumb? Ya. Did he get criticized? Super ya. 

 

But poor characterization and plot points tend to get massaged by the rest of the series to make things make sense. We saw this when french got criticism for his angry perturabo and then McNeil and Haley rounded it out his character to make it fit. Or Wright's efforts with Mortarion. 

 

The whole executioner schtick fell squarely in the massaged category. People didn't like it and it got undermined by multiple authors as a result to bring it in line. Abnett ignoring many other authors characterization on Typhus for a throwaway POV doesn't fix a poor representation of the character; it creates one. Same thing with Amit and Rann and Sol talgron. Same thing with killing off Falkus Kibre (and ADB took the heat when he repeated this with kargos) when we know he's kicking around later.

 

So ya, when one author tosses a lot of concepts out that people don't want to pick up and has a concept that's overruled by the rest of the authors to better fit the consistency of the series, it's different from the same author re-writing characters for no reason.

 

And all of this is in the context someone else declaring Prospero Burns as the best book in the series, vs. a general list of frustrations with a high-quality authors latest work. 

 

So ya, it's definitely a ramble and I don't think i really clearly explained anything properly. 

 

 

You make some good points but I have an issue with the whole “authors didn’t like so had to course correct”. :cuss:! The IP owners, GW/BL are who decides. THEY signed off on Prospero Burns. THEY will have known from the author meetings/brainstorms/pitch/synopsis/first draft where Abnett was going with things. So once again I think this is a view that conveniently ignores that these are authors for hire working in tie-in fiction.

[Scribe]

Just now, DukeLeto69 said:

The IP owners, GW/BL are who decides.

 

There are dreadful books in this series. Is that really where you want to hang your hat?

[DukeLeto69]

16 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

There are dreadful books in this series. Is that really where you want to hang your hat?

Totally agree but the implication was that authors have final say. They don’t. Or certainly shouldn’t. The biggest fault with the HH series is not the authors, it is the lack of control from editorial/IP team. If creatives are surrounded by yes men their creations eventually lose objectivity.

 

And again, this sub-thread of discussion was prompted by comments on Prospero Burns and how other authors had to “undo it”. Seems like when some folks don’t like what has happened then it is ok to undo things. I remember many people disliking what Swallow did with the Doom of the Deathguard and then being happy when Wraight undid some of it (if memory serves me correctly). Yet Abnett is criticised for similar things it seems. So it can only really therefore be subjective surely?

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

THEY signed off on Prospero Burns. THEY will have known from the author meetings/brainstorms/pitch/synopsis/first draft where Abnett was going with things. So once again I think this is a view that conveniently ignores that these are authors for hire working in tie-in fiction.

 

Ya, but similarly they signed off on all the stuff that went against that idea. 

 

GW gave the rubber stamp on Abnetts vision for PB, but the other authors that wrote the wolves losing constantly weren't following their vision? Like they were following company direction? Kinda just goes in line with my whole diatribe on the stuff that wasn't well received getting a healthy massage, doesn't it?

 

 

 

[DukeLeto69]

1 minute ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Ya, but similarly they signed off on all the stuff that went against that idea. 

 

GW gave the rubber stamp on Abnetts vision for PB, but the other authors that wrote the wolves losing constantly weren't following their vision? Like they were following company direction? Kinda just goes in line with my whole diatribe on the stuff that wasn't well received getting a healthy massage, doesn't it?

 

 

 

On the contrary it supports my point that the biggest fault with the HH series and inconsistent approaches or course changes lies with the editorial team and IP team more than with the authors.

 

Freelancers work for the client not the other way around.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Totally agree but the implication was that authors have final say. They don’t. Or certainly shouldn’t. The biggest fault with the HH series is not the authors, it is the lack of control from editorial/IP team. If creatives are surrounded by yes men their creations eventually lose objectivity.

 

And again, this sub-thread of discussion was prompted by comments on Prospero Burns and how other authors had to “undo it”. Seems like when some folks don’t like what has happened then it is ok to undo things. I remember many people disliking what Swallow did with the Doom of the Deathguard and then being happy when Wraight undid some of it (if memory serves me correctly). Yet Abnett is criticised for similar things it seems. So it can only really therefore be subjective surely?

 

So...does GW/BL have the say or not? Because if the issue is not the authors, but the lack of control by the IP team...who's in control?

 

 

And yeah, when an author gets something wrong, and multiple authors, or one of the holy trinity step in to course correct or fix something? Yeah its going to be well received.

 

The fact the SW arc went from 'RAWR we are the Emperors Executioners!' and it was panned, hard, and then the SW arc became 'yikes have we ever been humbled' well...

[DukeLeto69]

11 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

So...does GW/BL have the say or not? Because if the issue is not the authors, but the lack of control by the IP team...who's in control?

 

 

And yeah, when an author gets something wrong, and multiple authors, or one of the holy trinity step in to course correct or fix something? Yeah its going to be well received.

 

The fact the SW arc went from 'RAWR we are the Emperors Executioners!' and it was panned, hard, and then the SW arc became 'yikes have we ever been humbled' well...

 

GW/BL should have final say. If they don’t then they have a screwed up business model. Said above, freelancers work for the client. Sure they can introduce new and interesting ideas, but the client has to approve and sign off.

 

We know the HH authors, editors and IP managers met regularly to discuss the HH. We know Forgeworld (Alan Bligh) was part of this. We have seen the HH timeline and how they were trying to maintain alignment between the BL stories and FW BBBs. We know the process was to brainstorm ideas. We know authors then pitch their novel to BL (even Abnett). We know authors then write a synopsis for sign off by BL. We know the editors at least see the first draft if not batches of chapters. Of course BL (GW) are approving what the authors are doing. AND WE KNOW that even though Abnett has more clout than most authors, even he has to get permission to do things with the IP (as evidenced by what he is doing with the Bequin books that had to be approved and allowed by GW).

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

GW/BL should have final say. If they don’t then they have a screwed up business model. Said above, freelancers work for the client. Sure they can introduce new and interesting ideas, but the client has to approve and sign off.

 

I'm not interested in 'should'. I have eyes. I can read the books. We all know the problems with the series.

 

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

6 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

We know the HH authors, editors and IP managers met regularly to discuss the HH.

 

Do we?!

 

We knew they at least paid lip service to doing so for SoT. We know they met. We have pictures!

 

Now going back to "IP Control" was the series tightly controlled? 8 Novels only? Planned out and executed?

 

Come on man, you KNOW it wasnt.

 

Words are easy, words are cheap! Look at the results. Look at what was performed, what was delivered.

 

Who's was in control of these sprawling, mismanaged multi-author series?

[System Sound]

Books get commissioned. They get written. But the final result feels like, is being proof read by clifnotes just like this forum and Reddit does.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

I'm not interested in 'should'. I have eyes. I can read the books. We all know the problems with the series.

 

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

 

Do we?!

 

We knew they at least paid lip service to doing so for SoT. We know they met. We have pictures!

 

Now going back to "IP Control" was the series tightly controlled? 8 Novels only? Planned out and executed?

 

Come on man, you KNOW it wasnt.

 

Words are easy, words are cheap! Look at the results. Look at what was performed, what was delivered.

 

Who's was in control of these sprawling, mismanaged multi-author series?

First up there certainly were reports and photos of meetings during the HH series. 100% certain.

 

Second yes I hear you. But that is the point. The blame lies with editorial not authors.

 

I hire freelancers all the time. They deliver against my brief. They can recommend amendments or a different approach, but that will only happen if I sign it off. The decision lies with me because I sign off the purchase order.

 

Authors are creative do they are going to be creative! If they were not meeting the brief then BL should have stopped them. Ergo BL were happy with what they got.

[Scribe]

35 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

First up there certainly were reports and photos of meetings during the HH series. 100% certain.

 

Second yes I hear you. But that is the point. The blame lies with editorial not authors.

 

I hire freelancers all the time. They deliver against my brief. They can recommend amendments or a different approach, but that will only happen if I sign it off. The decision lies with me because I sign off the purchase order.

 

Authors are creative do they are going to be creative! If they were not meeting the brief then BL should have stopped them. Ergo BL were happy with what they got.

 

At the highest level, I agree with you, BL SHOULD (should, not is) be in control.

 

On a deeper level, its exceedingly clear to me that BL cares less than we do, or is satisfied with less than we are.

 

So who's really driving the ship? The Authors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So they're equally as happy with the anti wolf arc? The one the other freelancers all independently contributed to?

 

 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

So they're equally as happy with the anti wolf arc? The one the other freelancers all independently contributed to?

 

 

 

"Yes".

 

Because they dont really care, or being charitable they saw that the original book (PB) was a mistake in need of serious correction.

 

I'm fine with either position. ;)

[wecanhaveallthree]

One must wonder what happened to the Siege novellas. They were the perfect vehicle to carry on the sub-plots, they were 'meanwhile...' content and - fulling admitting my bias towards GOD KING MCNEILL - were by and large solid and effective additions. Wanna see what happened to Sharrowkyn and friends? Here ya go, they finished their mission and ended up recovering the Primaris goop for later. Wanna see what happened with Magnus? Here ya go, he's offered a final chance at redemption (OR IS HE?????????) and makes another choice (if, in truth, he had any choice at all). Wanna check in with Garro after he tooled off from the Knights Errant? Here he is, resolving his arc and giving a finger to his spacedad. Great! Largely self-contained, definite ends (well... somewhat definite, in Sharrowkyn's case) to b-plots, side stories and interesting characters. They were an excellent middle ground in removing bloat from stories and giving authors plenty of room to just pare down to the core, central conflicts.

 

That, uh, didn't happen for some reason. We even got a relitigation of Fury of Magnus right after in Echoes! 

 

But I wonder if there was ever an opportunity for Abnett to write another Magos-style tome with all his side guff, or handball some elements off to other authors for the novella treatment, so he wasn't left - as some suggest - holding all the marbles at the end through no fault of his own.

[Felix Antipodes]

—snip—

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

Since they have proven so inept at the multi-author series idea, I sometimes wish they had just doled out each legion to a single author and run with 18 or so parallel series.  Gold or coal, at least we would have a consistent storyline and characterisation for as long as they lasted. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Felix Antipodes

[cheywood]

1 hour ago, Felix Antipodes said:

—snip—

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

Since they have proven so inept at the multi-author series idea, I sometimes wish they had just doled out each legion to a single author and run with 18 or so parallel series.  Gold or coal, at least we would have a consistent storyline and characterisation for as long as they lasted. 

BL’s level of editorial control seems highly correlated to how much trust they have in you as an author. Reynolds talked about it a bit after he left. From what he said it sounded like if you were one of the favored authors (think Abnett or ADB) you’d have wide leeway to do as you’d like within the confines of reason, but most freelancers were kept on a much tighter leash in terms of creative freedom. I assume things are relatively similar a few years on.

Edited November 23, 2023 by cheywood

[Scribe]

So just to bring this back.

 

Spoiler

I wasnt crazy when I thought of the Biblical/Genesis/God references right? Others saw those as well when the Emperor was powered up?

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

34 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Spoiler

I wasnt crazy when I thought of the Biblical/Genesis/God references right? Others saw those as well when the Emperor was powered up?

 

Spoiler

You mean when he was BlackBalled before he blackballed himself?

Don't really know the Bible that well. To me it seemed that he somehow became a warp portal/black hole consuming realspace as the event horizon comes into contact with it.

 

[Scribe]

Spoiler

Yeah, that part was interesting as well, but I seem to think that there was at least 2 references to Genesis, maybe 3, and that one of them was essentially.

 

"And let there be light, and the Emperor was that light." or something to that effect, making the Emperor the OG "God of the Bible".

 

The downside of not having it on digital file is being unable to quickly search the text...

[tgcleric]

Just scanning through my LE that finally came in (couldn't get vol 1 but luckily enough to get vol 2) and found this passage (picture attached)

 

And it's stuff like this that abnett can just toss into his books that make his novels not just worth reading, bur revisiting to me. 

 

Not just lovely prose, but characters with clear unique voices, and actually saying something I find poignant. 

 

Fact is, call me a fanboy I guess (seems odd for someone who has actually read every HH book regardless of author) but these are the moments I look for in any book I read. 

 

I get excited when Abnett doesn't phone it in, but instead starts the novel talking philosophically about why cavemen painted a hunt and then builds Dorns story to not just reinforce that idea on a thematic level, but makes it a character moment and a moment of genuine dramatic pay off.

 

That's the :cuss: I love. Just good storytelling. And I adore when talented artists work within the confines of an IP and creates something personal and good regardless of its subject. 

 

I think the actually structure of these books have grown on me too. The accelerated chapters and cross cutting work for me. It was shockingly easy on a reread.

 

I'm not going to primarily judge these based on how they work for the lore. Nor would I hold any book individually on how well it plays as specifically a numbered part of the whole as that went away long ago - literally the moment Abnett didn't write book 2. If the sin is how well a book plays off the story than every book is a failure since horus rising. 

 

But I don't. I just read each book hoping they have interesting characters and good storytelling. 

 

So it's why I get pumped when Abnett (again, not phoning it in) used 2nd person for Horus. And then uses that not just to get inside his madness, but flip the script dramatically when you realize you aren't hearing flashbacks but him currently, struggling with his own motivations.

 

I don't have issues with anyone not liking the books. Or even people who want something out of these books. 

 

But when it comes to what I want. Abnett usually delivers. 

 

Also Prospero Burns is great and wet leopard growl rules and the pay off for it in the final passages is some of the most beautiful writing in all of BL. 

[Scribe]

Sorry, can you try again there @tgcleric ?

 

Is the implication that only Abnett writes small scenes like what you included in the picture, or that that is somehow elevating the book?

 

I could throw myself off the cliff on what Catholicism (Catheric) being a stand in for 'kindness' is...or the fact someone who has seen it all would still hold to it (he doesnt really its more about his love for his wife and I can actually respect that and it redeems the whole Catholicism inclusion in the setting for me) but..I prefer the Librarians and their commentary more so for my $$.

[EverythingIsGreat]

17 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

talking philosophically about why cavemen painted a hunt and then builds Dorns story to not just reinforce that idea on a thematic level,

 

FWIW, I don't think it is a philosophical position, but one of archeological scholarship. One theory is that the (real-world) old cave paintings are not artistic depictions but how-tos.