The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[SkimaskMohawk]

@DukeLeto69

3 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

It is well documented that PB was published late and out of sync with the series due to Abnett having health issues. Originally PB and TTS were to drop together (or close). At the time one of the main criticisms was that the Abnett book was called Prospero Burns when it doesn’t in that book (you see the battle in TTS). That is a marketing dept decision.

 

For sure it's a marketing decision with the name; bringing up a thousand sons was another point of Prospero Burns actually being part of a series, and to show that Goodreads scores don't really mean much when we're talking about "being the best in the series". 

 

3 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Criticising Abnett for writing a book that subsequent authors then ignored or had to undo is precisely the criticism bring levelled at Abnett now! It seems rather hypocritical (not having a dig at you just trying to discuss). Surely if an earlier book in the series establishes characterisations, plot points, lore/colour about factions etc, then whether you agree or not, that provides the blueprint for subsequent additions to the series?

 

I'm going to try my best to keep it from being an all out ramble but...you know. 

 

There's nuance and stuff think about. A good, or at least, inoffensive characterization, plot point, or foreshadowed idea should absolutely be used as a blueprint.

 

We saw this with Horus rising with Horus' fears and responsibilities, and Erebus' manipulation and set up for davin; all of this was respected. Did McNeil do a worse job with the human characters? Ya. Did he bungle the dream sequence and make Horus look dumb? Ya. Did he get criticized? Super ya. 

 

But poor characterization and plot points tend to get massaged by the rest of the series to make things make sense. We saw this when french got criticism for his angry perturabo and then McNeil and Haley rounded it out his character to make it fit. Or Wright's efforts with Mortarion. 

 

The whole executioner schtick fell squarely in the massaged category. People didn't like it and it got undermined by multiple authors as a result to bring it in line. Abnett ignoring many other authors characterization on Typhus for a throwaway POV doesn't fix a poor representation of the character; it creates one. Same thing with Amit and Rann and Sol talgron. Same thing with killing off Falkus Kibre (and ADB took the heat when he repeated this with kargos) when we know he's kicking around later.

 

So ya, when one author tosses a lot of concepts out that people don't want to pick up and has a concept that's overruled by the rest of the authors to better fit the consistency of the series, it's different from the same author re-writing characters for no reason.

 

And all of this is in the context someone else declaring Prospero Burns as the best book in the series, vs. a general list of frustrations with a high-quality authors latest work. 

 

So ya, it's definitely a ramble and I don't think i really clearly explained anything properly. 

 

 

[Scribe]

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

The whole executioner schtick fell squarely in the massaged category. People didn't like it and it got undermined by multiple authors as a result to bring it in line.

 

The course correction on this actually defined the majority of the SW arc I feel, as they came to grips with the fact they are not in fact the Emperors Gift to Astartesian Glory.

 

I'd say that the whole 'Emperor's Executioners' and the following corrections from near every other author, probably generated more flame wars here and Portent/Warseer than anything else in the entire series. :D

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Yes, I think a really good, even great book exists in there.

 

I agree. I'm halfway through volume 2, had to take a break from it and get some Star Wars: The High Republic out of the way, along with some audible preorders that popped (why oh why is November so crowded?!), and it's proving a necessary breather.

 

There's plenty in there to like. Cool ideas, cool concepts, well-written character moments - and those are what I'm here for, not the bolter action and gigantic setpieces or crucified titans. The rule of cool is far less interesting to me than the moments where characters have "heart to hearts" or are forced to re-evaluate their views on the setting and its protagonists.

 

The Malcador bits, and his Chosen (who I wish so very much had been explored more between The Sigillite and the Siege! Khalid Hassan was criminally underused in particular, but now we have a bunch of them who have basically zero development prior to TEATD) reacting to his "death", are largely brilliant. But then you have chapters that just keep repeating themes and even paragraphs ad nauseum (even if effective and definitely evocative, the Rogal Dorn sections, for instance, feel bloated as a result of the repetition, and Fo's outsmarting of Amon runs in circles for a while too; don't even need to touch on the clocks or the end and the death), scenes that never needed to be here (Rann & Zephon, for instance), scenes that regress on previous character development or scenes that treat characters as if it was their first outing in the series when they've been around for longer than Oll.

 

The "easter eggs", to put it charitably, have also crossed from "haha, nice one" to "I get it already, Abaddon the despoiler, how cute" at some point. There is foreshadowing and nods to a surviving characters' eventual fate, and then there's signposting this stuff for the audience with all the subtlety of Vulkan's hammer.

 

There are also unnecessary bits that could easily be cut, which actively do a disservice to characters from other authors, like Sor Talgron, who in the past had been one of my favorite traitors with lots of potential and even a forgotten macguffin from way back when Anthony Reynolds wrote him. In here, he gets shanked without ever offering a real look into his head. His perspective is irrelevant, he's just another trophy kill for another character whose relevance in this book so far only seems to be that he got a model when Saturnine was properly announced. He's here to make Fafnir Rann look cool and had a known name attached to him, not because he had any bearing on the story. We are then treated to a short epilogue paragraph after he is dispatched:

 

Quote

Talgron’s butchered corpse is carried off the field in the confusion by his brethren, and brought to Portis Bar. Later, in the terrible aftermath, he will be made to live again, against his abject wishes, for a third time, interred in the sarcophagus of a Dreadnought shell to endure the living death he had always rejected.

 

Like, why is this here? It feels detached, not just because it's a separated paragraph from the action piece beforehand, or the top-down perspective, but because we never engaged with Sor Talgron in this book, not mentally. You could've replaced him with any mook and it'd have had the same impact on the story, it's just ticking a box that didn't need ticking - it was already established in 40k works that he survived, got entombed in a dreadnought, and that he hated the idea of being made to survive that way was clear in The Purge by Anthony Reynolds already. We knew he was even more fanatical after his near-death experience in The Purge.

 

His inclusion here adds nothing to the plot of TEATD. It doesn't make it a better book, it just makes it a longer book. And that's something that can be said about many of the featured characters and scenes in TEATD 1&2.

 

I'm not even criticising Amit being here, or Azkaellon, or in a way even Zephon, even though he steps on Azkaellon's toes (who has been sidelined/forgotten for the longest time as is), or Raldoron. Raldoron, Amit and Azkaellon are basically the trifecta of the Legion-era Blood Angels - it's been established before in the Andy Smillie novels that all three react differently to Sanguinius' death, and all three take different consequences away from it. There's great potential here to explore these three angles of the Blood Angels situation and grief.

 

But there's the issue: Amit acts out of character. I've spoken about the "Flesh Tearer" being shocked by his own sudden anger issues before.

Raldoron is barely in these two volumes. He gets namedropped a few times, and the rest of the time we get to see him through Ikasati, an original TEATD Abnett character. We don't see the Vengeful Spirit through Raldoron, but Ikasati, who even got a namedrop in a chapter title, something that's rare enough to happen here. He's more prominent in the narrative than the character we should actually care about and think is top tier at this juncture.

 

Azkaellon appears in volume 1 to stand in and comment on Zephon's behavior to Rann. His role in this could be almost completely swapped with Zephon and nothing would really change for the characters involved. Beyond that, he is just namedropped alongside other heroes, like Thane and Archamus. And volume 2 drops the namedrops in favor of Azkaellon again being a foil for Rann, and a stand-in for Zephon who seemingly doesn't want to talk about his own issues. At least he brings more to the table than Raldoron does, but damn it's a far cry from what it needed to be, if it had to be here.

 

The names are here, but the soul hardly is.

 

There's even the curious case of Zagreus Kane, Fabricator General in exile, who is listed in both volumes' Dramatis Personae, without ever actually being named in the book so far, neither as Zagreus Kane, nor Zagreus, nor Kane. He's listed, but has no role to play. This is most likely an oversight with the listing, but it sprung out to me.

Another character who has been built up through multiple Siege novels is Katsuhiro, who the first half put a lot of emphasis on as a human PoV to it all. He is listed in both DPs, and is namedropped exactly once in each volume, with no relevance. He isn't actually here, he isn't doing anything of relevance, he's a checkbox.

 

Some folks know that I have my issues with how Argonis was introduced in the series and that he ended up overshadowing established characters like Aximand too easily, but here? In The End and the Death? He's almost an irrelevance aside from his reaction to the Dark King stuff when Abaddon finds him, or the brief info he sends Abaddon about the shields being down. Argonis has the doubtful honor of being in the story while not even being recognized as himself by his lord, being called Maloghurst instead, and what agency he tries having earns him a slap from Horus, removing him from the story for a good while after.

 

Abnett has used myriad characters throughout these two volumes already, and most of them are exceedingly underused or substituted. For many of them it'd have been better not showing them in scenes, sticking with namedrops at best (because they're doing stuff off-story), than giving us a glimpse just to have them included.

That's what significantly contributes to the feel of bloat in the novel, and when coupled with the snail's pace at which key events appear to happen (because time is broken, the clocks stopped ticking, yadda yadda), drags the book down.

 

Had Abnett been more selective, stripping at least 200 pages from each part so far, it'd have still been a very chunky book, but a better one. One that actually puts the focus on the parts that matter, that benefit the unfolding catastrophe, rather than dilluting it by reiterating the basics over and over again, or including stuff just for the sake of inclusion, rather than that it has anything to say of its own about these things.

 

There are strokes of genius in The End and the Death. It's a shame that there's a large quantity of forgettable, contradictory, inconsistent or worse, boring spots all throughout that detract from them. And that was just so, so unnecessary and should have been headed off by editing staff. Some of these things and characters would've been far better served with a short story in a multi-author Siege anthology than being here, and it boggles my mind that they haven't just done an anthology for "cleanup" before the final novel.

 

Looking at the audiobook runtimes, The End and the Death in full will rival Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace or Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo in listening time. A lot of stuff happens in those books too, and they have greatly abridged editions. Just for perspective on how long this final novel actually is going to be.

Edited November 22, 2023 by DarkChaplain

[Roomsky]

Just wanna toss in that people come to these forums for all sorts of reasons. B & C is often critical, yes, but rarely is it anything but an honest response. There are plenty who seek a more detailed and critical discussion than can be found on reddit, but there is still a ton of positive discussion here. We also tend to actually engage with each other instead of, say, my suggesting the Dark King resolution was mishandled and only getting downvotes instead of an actual rebuttal.

 

Do some Fraters jump the Gun? Yes. Are some Fraters biased? Yes. But I hardly see anything that makes us uniquely unwelcoming, that's every forum ever. A detailed, honest review is always more valuable than huffing copium. Especially when even this book's most vocal detractors admit what Abnett did well.

 

Anyway I agree Prospero Burns was Abnett's best Heresy contribution *ducks bullet*

[Scribe]

11 minutes ago, Roomsky said:

Anyway I agree Prospero Burns was Abnett's best Heresy contribution *ducks bullet*

 

*pew pew*

[System Sound]

27 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

*pew pew*

More like a *wet leopard growl*

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

@DukeLeto69

 

For sure it's a marketing decision with the name; bringing up a thousand sons was another point of Prospero Burns actually being part of a series, and to show that Goodreads scores don't really mean much when we're talking about "being the best in the series". 

 

 

I'm going to try my best to keep it from being an all out ramble but...you know. 

 

There's nuance and stuff think about. A good, or at least, inoffensive characterization, plot point, or foreshadowed idea should absolutely be used as a blueprint.

 

We saw this with Horus rising with Horus' fears and responsibilities, and Erebus' manipulation and set up for davin; all of this was respected. Did McNeil do a worse job with the human characters? Ya. Did he bungle the dream sequence and make Horus look dumb? Ya. Did he get criticized? Super ya. 

 

But poor characterization and plot points tend to get massaged by the rest of the series to make things make sense. We saw this when french got criticism for his angry perturabo and then McNeil and Haley rounded it out his character to make it fit. Or Wright's efforts with Mortarion. 

 

The whole executioner schtick fell squarely in the massaged category. People didn't like it and it got undermined by multiple authors as a result to bring it in line. Abnett ignoring many other authors characterization on Typhus for a throwaway POV doesn't fix a poor representation of the character; it creates one. Same thing with Amit and Rann and Sol talgron. Same thing with killing off Falkus Kibre (and ADB took the heat when he repeated this with kargos) when we know he's kicking around later.

 

So ya, when one author tosses a lot of concepts out that people don't want to pick up and has a concept that's overruled by the rest of the authors to better fit the consistency of the series, it's different from the same author re-writing characters for no reason.

 

And all of this is in the context someone else declaring Prospero Burns as the best book in the series, vs. a general list of frustrations with a high-quality authors latest work. 

 

So ya, it's definitely a ramble and I don't think i really clearly explained anything properly. 

 

 

You make some good points but I have an issue with the whole “authors didn’t like so had to course correct”. :cuss:! The IP owners, GW/BL are who decides. THEY signed off on Prospero Burns. THEY will have known from the author meetings/brainstorms/pitch/synopsis/first draft where Abnett was going with things. So once again I think this is a view that conveniently ignores that these are authors for hire working in tie-in fiction.

[Scribe]

Just now, DukeLeto69 said:

The IP owners, GW/BL are who decides.

 

There are dreadful books in this series. Is that really where you want to hang your hat?

[DukeLeto69]

16 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

There are dreadful books in this series. Is that really where you want to hang your hat?

Totally agree but the implication was that authors have final say. They don’t. Or certainly shouldn’t. The biggest fault with the HH series is not the authors, it is the lack of control from editorial/IP team. If creatives are surrounded by yes men their creations eventually lose objectivity.

 

And again, this sub-thread of discussion was prompted by comments on Prospero Burns and how other authors had to “undo it”. Seems like when some folks don’t like what has happened then it is ok to undo things. I remember many people disliking what Swallow did with the Doom of the Deathguard and then being happy when Wraight undid some of it (if memory serves me correctly). Yet Abnett is criticised for similar things it seems. So it can only really therefore be subjective surely?

[SkimaskMohawk]

7 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

THEY signed off on Prospero Burns. THEY will have known from the author meetings/brainstorms/pitch/synopsis/first draft where Abnett was going with things. So once again I think this is a view that conveniently ignores that these are authors for hire working in tie-in fiction.

 

Ya, but similarly they signed off on all the stuff that went against that idea. 

 

GW gave the rubber stamp on Abnetts vision for PB, but the other authors that wrote the wolves losing constantly weren't following their vision? Like they were following company direction? Kinda just goes in line with my whole diatribe on the stuff that wasn't well received getting a healthy massage, doesn't it?

 

 

 

[DukeLeto69]

1 minute ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

 

Ya, but similarly they signed off on all the stuff that went against that idea. 

 

GW gave the rubber stamp on Abnetts vision for PB, but the other authors that wrote the wolves losing constantly weren't following their vision? Like they were following company direction? Kinda just goes in line with my whole diatribe on the stuff that wasn't well received getting a healthy massage, doesn't it?

 

 

 

On the contrary it supports my point that the biggest fault with the HH series and inconsistent approaches or course changes lies with the editorial team and IP team more than with the authors.

 

Freelancers work for the client not the other way around.

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Totally agree but the implication was that authors have final say. They don’t. Or certainly shouldn’t. The biggest fault with the HH series is not the authors, it is the lack of control from editorial/IP team. If creatives are surrounded by yes men their creations eventually lose objectivity.

 

And again, this sub-thread of discussion was prompted by comments on Prospero Burns and how other authors had to “undo it”. Seems like when some folks don’t like what has happened then it is ok to undo things. I remember many people disliking what Swallow did with the Doom of the Deathguard and then being happy when Wraight undid some of it (if memory serves me correctly). Yet Abnett is criticised for similar things it seems. So it can only really therefore be subjective surely?

 

So...does GW/BL have the say or not? Because if the issue is not the authors, but the lack of control by the IP team...who's in control?

 

 

And yeah, when an author gets something wrong, and multiple authors, or one of the holy trinity step in to course correct or fix something? Yeah its going to be well received.

 

The fact the SW arc went from 'RAWR we are the Emperors Executioners!' and it was panned, hard, and then the SW arc became 'yikes have we ever been humbled' well...

[DukeLeto69]

11 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

So...does GW/BL have the say or not? Because if the issue is not the authors, but the lack of control by the IP team...who's in control?

 

 

And yeah, when an author gets something wrong, and multiple authors, or one of the holy trinity step in to course correct or fix something? Yeah its going to be well received.

 

The fact the SW arc went from 'RAWR we are the Emperors Executioners!' and it was panned, hard, and then the SW arc became 'yikes have we ever been humbled' well...

 

GW/BL should have final say. If they don’t then they have a screwed up business model. Said above, freelancers work for the client. Sure they can introduce new and interesting ideas, but the client has to approve and sign off.

 

We know the HH authors, editors and IP managers met regularly to discuss the HH. We know Forgeworld (Alan Bligh) was part of this. We have seen the HH timeline and how they were trying to maintain alignment between the BL stories and FW BBBs. We know the process was to brainstorm ideas. We know authors then pitch their novel to BL (even Abnett). We know authors then write a synopsis for sign off by BL. We know the editors at least see the first draft if not batches of chapters. Of course BL (GW) are approving what the authors are doing. AND WE KNOW that even though Abnett has more clout than most authors, even he has to get permission to do things with the IP (as evidenced by what he is doing with the Bequin books that had to be approved and allowed by GW).

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

GW/BL should have final say. If they don’t then they have a screwed up business model. Said above, freelancers work for the client. Sure they can introduce new and interesting ideas, but the client has to approve and sign off.

 

I'm not interested in 'should'. I have eyes. I can read the books. We all know the problems with the series.

 

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

6 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

We know the HH authors, editors and IP managers met regularly to discuss the HH.

 

Do we?!

 

We knew they at least paid lip service to doing so for SoT. We know they met. We have pictures!

 

Now going back to "IP Control" was the series tightly controlled? 8 Novels only? Planned out and executed?

 

Come on man, you KNOW it wasnt.

 

Words are easy, words are cheap! Look at the results. Look at what was performed, what was delivered.

 

Who's was in control of these sprawling, mismanaged multi-author series?

[System Sound]

Books get commissioned. They get written. But the final result feels like, is being proof read by clifnotes just like this forum and Reddit does.

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

I'm not interested in 'should'. I have eyes. I can read the books. We all know the problems with the series.

 

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

 

Do we?!

 

We knew they at least paid lip service to doing so for SoT. We know they met. We have pictures!

 

Now going back to "IP Control" was the series tightly controlled? 8 Novels only? Planned out and executed?

 

Come on man, you KNOW it wasnt.

 

Words are easy, words are cheap! Look at the results. Look at what was performed, what was delivered.

 

Who's was in control of these sprawling, mismanaged multi-author series?

First up there certainly were reports and photos of meetings during the HH series. 100% certain.

 

Second yes I hear you. But that is the point. The blame lies with editorial not authors.

 

I hire freelancers all the time. They deliver against my brief. They can recommend amendments or a different approach, but that will only happen if I sign it off. The decision lies with me because I sign off the purchase order.

 

Authors are creative do they are going to be creative! If they were not meeting the brief then BL should have stopped them. Ergo BL were happy with what they got.

[Scribe]

35 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

First up there certainly were reports and photos of meetings during the HH series. 100% certain.

 

Second yes I hear you. But that is the point. The blame lies with editorial not authors.

 

I hire freelancers all the time. They deliver against my brief. They can recommend amendments or a different approach, but that will only happen if I sign it off. The decision lies with me because I sign off the purchase order.

 

Authors are creative do they are going to be creative! If they were not meeting the brief then BL should have stopped them. Ergo BL were happy with what they got.

 

At the highest level, I agree with you, BL SHOULD (should, not is) be in control.

 

On a deeper level, its exceedingly clear to me that BL cares less than we do, or is satisfied with less than we are.

 

So who's really driving the ship? The Authors.

[SkimaskMohawk]

So they're equally as happy with the anti wolf arc? The one the other freelancers all independently contributed to?

 

 

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

So they're equally as happy with the anti wolf arc? The one the other freelancers all independently contributed to?

 

 

 

"Yes".

 

Because they dont really care, or being charitable they saw that the original book (PB) was a mistake in need of serious correction.

 

I'm fine with either position. ;)

[wecanhaveallthree]

One must wonder what happened to the Siege novellas. They were the perfect vehicle to carry on the sub-plots, they were 'meanwhile...' content and - fulling admitting my bias towards GOD KING MCNEILL - were by and large solid and effective additions. Wanna see what happened to Sharrowkyn and friends? Here ya go, they finished their mission and ended up recovering the Primaris goop for later. Wanna see what happened with Magnus? Here ya go, he's offered a final chance at redemption (OR IS HE?????????) and makes another choice (if, in truth, he had any choice at all). Wanna check in with Garro after he tooled off from the Knights Errant? Here he is, resolving his arc and giving a finger to his spacedad. Great! Largely self-contained, definite ends (well... somewhat definite, in Sharrowkyn's case) to b-plots, side stories and interesting characters. They were an excellent middle ground in removing bloat from stories and giving authors plenty of room to just pare down to the core, central conflicts.

 

That, uh, didn't happen for some reason. We even got a relitigation of Fury of Magnus right after in Echoes! 

 

But I wonder if there was ever an opportunity for Abnett to write another Magos-style tome with all his side guff, or handball some elements off to other authors for the novella treatment, so he wasn't left - as some suggest - holding all the marbles at the end through no fault of his own.

[Felix Antipodes]

—snip—

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

Since they have proven so inept at the multi-author series idea, I sometimes wish they had just doled out each legion to a single author and run with 18 or so parallel series.  Gold or coal, at least we would have a consistent storyline and characterisation for as long as they lasted. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Felix Antipodes

[cheywood]

1 hour ago, Felix Antipodes said:

—snip—

Does GW/BL exercise IP control and keep a tight ship? We have War of the Beast, HH, SoT, and the DoF series to compare. Thoughts?

 

Since they have proven so inept at the multi-author series idea, I sometimes wish they had just doled out each legion to a single author and run with 18 or so parallel series.  Gold or coal, at least we would have a consistent storyline and characterisation for as long as they lasted. 

BL’s level of editorial control seems highly correlated to how much trust they have in you as an author. Reynolds talked about it a bit after he left. From what he said it sounded like if you were one of the favored authors (think Abnett or ADB) you’d have wide leeway to do as you’d like within the confines of reason, but most freelancers were kept on a much tighter leash in terms of creative freedom. I assume things are relatively similar a few years on.

Edited November 23, 2023 by cheywood

[Scribe]

So just to bring this back.

 

Spoiler

I wasnt crazy when I thought of the Biblical/Genesis/God references right? Others saw those as well when the Emperor was powered up?

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

34 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Spoiler

I wasnt crazy when I thought of the Biblical/Genesis/God references right? Others saw those as well when the Emperor was powered up?

 

Spoiler

You mean when he was BlackBalled before he blackballed himself?

Don't really know the Bible that well. To me it seemed that he somehow became a warp portal/black hole consuming realspace as the event horizon comes into contact with it.

 

[Scribe]

Spoiler

Yeah, that part was interesting as well, but I seem to think that there was at least 2 references to Genesis, maybe 3, and that one of them was essentially.

 

"And let there be light, and the Emperor was that light." or something to that effect, making the Emperor the OG "God of the Bible".

 

The downside of not having it on digital file is being unable to quickly search the text...