The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[tgcleric]

Just scanning through my LE that finally came in (couldn't get vol 1 but luckily enough to get vol 2) and found this passage (picture attached)

 

And it's stuff like this that abnett can just toss into his books that make his novels not just worth reading, bur revisiting to me. 

 

Not just lovely prose, but characters with clear unique voices, and actually saying something I find poignant. 

 

Fact is, call me a fanboy I guess (seems odd for someone who has actually read every HH book regardless of author) but these are the moments I look for in any book I read. 

 

I get excited when Abnett doesn't phone it in, but instead starts the novel talking philosophically about why cavemen painted a hunt and then builds Dorns story to not just reinforce that idea on a thematic level, but makes it a character moment and a moment of genuine dramatic pay off.

 

That's the :cuss: I love. Just good storytelling. And I adore when talented artists work within the confines of an IP and creates something personal and good regardless of its subject. 

 

I think the actually structure of these books have grown on me too. The accelerated chapters and cross cutting work for me. It was shockingly easy on a reread.

 

I'm not going to primarily judge these based on how they work for the lore. Nor would I hold any book individually on how well it plays as specifically a numbered part of the whole as that went away long ago - literally the moment Abnett didn't write book 2. If the sin is how well a book plays off the story than every book is a failure since horus rising. 

 

But I don't. I just read each book hoping they have interesting characters and good storytelling. 

 

So it's why I get pumped when Abnett (again, not phoning it in) used 2nd person for Horus. And then uses that not just to get inside his madness, but flip the script dramatically when you realize you aren't hearing flashbacks but him currently, struggling with his own motivations.

 

I don't have issues with anyone not liking the books. Or even people who want something out of these books. 

 

But when it comes to what I want. Abnett usually delivers. 

 

Also Prospero Burns is great and wet leopard growl rules and the pay off for it in the final passages is some of the most beautiful writing in all of BL. 

[Scribe]

Sorry, can you try again there @tgcleric ?

 

Is the implication that only Abnett writes small scenes like what you included in the picture, or that that is somehow elevating the book?

 

I could throw myself off the cliff on what Catholicism (Catheric) being a stand in for 'kindness' is...or the fact someone who has seen it all would still hold to it (he doesnt really its more about his love for his wife and I can actually respect that and it redeems the whole Catholicism inclusion in the setting for me) but..I prefer the Librarians and their commentary more so for my $$.

[EverythingIsGreat]

17 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

talking philosophically about why cavemen painted a hunt and then builds Dorns story to not just reinforce that idea on a thematic level,

 

FWIW, I don't think it is a philosophical position, but one of archeological scholarship. One theory is that the (real-world) old cave paintings are not artistic depictions but how-tos. 

[tgcleric]

Try again? It's just a nice well written moment that I liked. And it's moments like that I enjoy in Abnetts writing. 

 

Also Catholic is not standing in for kindness.

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, tgcleric said:

Try again? It's just a nice well written moment that I liked. And it's moments like that I enjoy in Abnetts writing. 

 

Also Catholic is not standing in for kindness.

 

I mean he clearly is associating Catheric (Catholic) with "...community, love, peace, kindness..." in the text. Its right there, and then reinforced when Actae calls him on kindness, and Oll doubles down on it as a weaker word for 'humanity'.

 

All of which is...fine but considering the setting? This characters lived experience? The fact they are walking through a weird hellscape at the time, and hes talking to a woman who was killed and brought back from said literal Hell of the species and there is no Catholic God at all, but instead an all encompassing

 

Spoiler

Dark King

 

....I still find it a very very odd inclusion that is pretty much like the entire Perpetual arc and every other 'what can we refer to from the 20th century as a wink here' completely out of place in the year of our lord (lol) 30000+.

 

Doubly so when one considers the age of the people reading this, and I just have to wonder how many picked up on even the Book of Genesis references.

[tgcleric]

2 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

FWIW, I don't think it is a philosophical position, but one of archeological scholarship. One theory is that the (real-world) old cave paintings are not artistic depictions but how-tos. 

Yeah he definitely discusses the archeological scholarship. I'm a big dork so i love stuff like this, or when Dorn begins discussing the history of the ethics of justified killings. (Also why I love the beginning of Master of mankind where he goes through the history of murder)

 

But Abnett doesn't end it with How Tos. He dismisses that. Instead he argues its to impress your will, your future onto the present. It ties back into the idea that writing history is inherently optimistic as it implies that it will be read.

 

It ties back to the idea of oath of the moment. 

 

Ties in nicely to all the timey wimey stuff going on. 

 

It's similar to other arguments about the meaning an artist gets in making art.  The action of storytelling, of painting is manifesting it as fact. I think there for I am.

 

That's why when it comes back at the end it's not Dorn writing a how to. It's Dorn regaining himself. 

[tgcleric]

3 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

I mean he clearly is associating Catheric (Catholic) with "...community, love, peace, kindness..." in the text. Its right there, and then reinforced when Actae calls him on kindness, and Oll doubles down on it as a weaker word for humanity.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Dark King

 

 

 

He is saying he doesn't believe. He is literally speaking like I, a lapsed Catholic, would speak when they still respect the purpose or cultural importance of religion. 

 

That the religion, the lore, the scripture, the belief, isn't what matters. But just the ideas of being kind and so on are valuable. Something that anyone who dabbles in comparative religions knows that pretty much all religions and even laws usually breakdown into common ideas, don't murder, be kind, be responsible and so on. 

 

He is simply saying that he despite everything he holds on to those values. And then one of those values, kindness, is sneered at. 

 

And he pushes back that indeed people seem not to value it. Especially now. And then the ides that humanity could have been the word but can't because of human history is just a clever way for him to acknowledge his cynicism. That "humanity" unfortunately can't represent kindness. 

 

It's just nicely written. Even the use of "meek" is nice word choice, feeling biblical. 

 

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

 

He is saying he doesn't believe. He is literally speaking like I, a lapsed Catholic, would speak when they still respect the purpose or cultural importance of religion. 

 

That the religion, the lore, the scripture, the belief, isn't what matters. But just the ideas of being kind and so on are valuable. Something that anyone who dabbles in comparative religions knows that pretty much all religions and even laws usually breakdown into common ideas, don't murder, be kind, be responsible and so on. 

 

He is simply saying that he despite everything he holds on to those values. And then one of those values, kindness, is sneered at. 

 

And he pushes back that indeed people seem not to value it. Especially now. And then the ides that humanity could have been the word but can't because of human history is just a clever way for him to acknowledge his cynicism. That "humanity" unfortunately can't represent kindness. 

 

It's just nicely written. Even the use of "meek" is nice word choice, feeling biblical. 

 

 

I agree, in broad strokes. 

 

I think also, you've triggered something of an epiphany on how I think Abnett is going to wrap this up.

[SkimaskMohawk]

5 hours ago, tgcleric said:

I'm not going to primarily judge these based on how they work for the lore. Nor would I hold any book individually on how well it plays as specifically a numbered part of the whole as that went away long ago - literally the moment Abnett didn't write book 2. If the sin is how well a book plays off the story than every book is a failure since horus rising. 

 

The joke, of course, being that in an imagined 10 book series, all of Abnetts plot threads actually got followed in book 2. Horus' insecurities about his father, his disdain for the Imperium's methodology/policies and responsibilities of office, Erebus' scheming, Loken's wariness of the warp and temples, Davin; these are all continued on in False Gods. The biggest mark against False Gods was the dream sequence, but I'd be interested in rereading it all the same; see if the weaker remembrancer characterization is offset by any marine character being fleshed out to be more than a skeleton with a name.

 

There's something to be said of discarding plot point consistency as a fundamental of a book in a series while not being able to identify plot points that actually did carry over. 

[TrillionSpiders]

On 11/22/2023 at 6:26 PM, wecanhaveallthree said:

Wanna check in with Garro after he tooled off from the Knights Errant? Here he is, resolving his arc and giving a finger to his spacedad.

 

i think garro is a pretty solid example of mismanagement on the siege series part honestly, because well its a perfectly fine novella on its own the timing of its release [after warhawk and the last book before teatd or atleast before echoes from what i remember] was just... baffling. if it had come out before warhawk then it would have been an solid way to build up to jagahtais pro gamer move in his duel with mortarion by having garro pull off a lesser version of the same thing. instead having it come out after warhawk just makes the whole thing feel like a rehash or knock off of the similar scene in warhawk. and having it be the penultimate novella before driving full force into the conclusion of the series? maddening.

 

but then i will put my hand up to being a mortarion fan, so mort being the constant butt of the joke... it doesn't put me off him but it can be aggravating.

[DukeLeto69]

I am another one who feels that heavy references to contemporary (and last 2000 years) history feels off unless it is weighted alongside events, actors, belief systems etc that happened in the next 28,000 years. 

 

I get that an author may want to root some story points into realworld things that the reader can identify with, but to do so while ignoring the future (made up) history covering a significantly longer period feels reductive and small.

 

Catholicism emerged c.2000 years ago. Are we really expected to believe no new religious movement will appear over the next 28,000 years? Even if we say “ah science will kill religion ultimately” what about the period during Old Night? Surely that is a prime period for humans to seek answers and re-embrace religion? 

[Lord_Caerolion]

It does make things feel smaller when we have “historical” references to stuff we personally know about, but then nothing until, say, 100 years before 30k. Where are all the references to the poets from the year 4,000? No artwork got made in the year 6,000? 

[System Sound]

4 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

I am another one who feels that heavy references to contemporary (and last 2000 years) history feels off unless it is weighted alongside events, actors, belief systems etc that happened in the next 28,000 years. 

 

I get that an author may want to root some story points into realworld things that the reader can identify with, but to do so while ignoring the future (made up) history covering a significantly longer period feels reductive and small.

 

Catholicism emerged c.2000 years ago. Are we really expected to believe no new religious movement will appear over the next 28,000 years? Even if we say “ah science will kill religion ultimately” what about the period during Old Night? Surely that is a prime period for humans to seek answers and re-embrace religion? 

This annoyed me to no end. Annett in all his absurd creativity, could not manage to come up with anything else that is art or culture or religion, that came up in another 28k years!? Only the same old religions and few artist that almost everybody these days know are referenced. Mentioning it once or twice is fine. Anything more and it becomes tedious, like most of this book...

[cheywood]

I’ve always thought of Oll’s Catheric beliefs as a really on the nose Dune reference that Abnett let take on a life of its own. Turning a tiny meta reference into a major plot point feels very Abnett. Only author I know of who’d transform a minor character’s accidental misgendering into a crucial plot point. 

Edited November 24, 2023 by cheywood

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, cheywood said:

I’ve always thought of Oll’s Catheric beliefs as a really on the nose Dune reference that Abnett let take on a life of its own. Turning a tiny meta reference into a major plot point feels very Abnett. Only author I know of who’d transform a minor character’s accidental misgendering into a crucial plot point. 

Dune reference as in people following Judaism faith unchanged?

[cheywood]

19 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Dune reference as in people following Judaism faith unchanged?

The Orange Catholic Bible is a frequently(ish?) referenced religious text in Dune. From what I remember (and more importantly what google tells me) it’s a book containing a lot of mankind’s religious thought, not just Christianity.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Philosophical mambojambo

 

The treatment of religion in WH40K in general and the HH in particular can be parochial and inconsistent. One example is the identification of "kindness" with religious beliefs in this instance. Obviously this is not true kindness which should always be spontaneous, unpredictable and extremely perishable (because it has no reward other than itself). Mandated kindness (by religion/philosophy/ideology) with the implied promise "be kind to achieve (enter your favorite utopia)" is just a barter, a trade in the market of "clever" ideas, and an insidious misappropriation. It is destructive because it hides the true nature of kindness in human affairs. Checkout the daily news.

 

End of mambojambo, as you were

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Philosophical mambojambo

 

The treatment of religion in WH40K in general and the HH in particular can be parochial and inconsistent. One example is the identification of "kindness" with religious beliefs in this instance. Obviously this is not true kindness which should always be spontaneous, unpredictable and extremely perishable (because it has no reward other than itself). Mandated kindness (by religion/philosophy/ideology) with the implied promise "be kind to achieve (enter your favorite utopia)" is just a barter, a trade in the market of "clever" ideas, and an insidious misappropriation. It is destructive because it hides the true nature of kindness in human affairs. Checkout the daily news.

 

End of mambojambo, as you were

 

This, and the time abyss that is the setting, are the 2 primary faults I have here. I can accept the angle Abnett is perhaps going for, but again its the execution that much like The Last Church, just isnt going to cut it.

 

The philosophical concepts are not going to be satisfied in a few pages, and the idea that Christianity would have any kind of representation after everything that has happened in the setting is on its face, nonsense.

 

NOW.

 

That said, the idea that an immortal doesnt ACTUALLY believe it, but he clung to it out of love for his wife? That I can accept, so I'm glad Abnett dropped that in there.

[DukeLeto69]

3 hours ago, cheywood said:

The Orange Catholic Bible is a frequently(ish?) referenced religious text in Dune. From what I remember (and more importantly what google tells me) it’s a book containing a lot of mankind’s religious thought, not just Christianity.

Ah. In the Dune universe history all but two of the major religions were brought together into a single unified belief system in an effort to avoid religious war in future. The OCB was the collected scriptures (so to speak). The two that did not join that single/collected religion were the Jews and the Zensunni (a sort of future fusion of Islam and Buddism). To say more would be spoilers and this is the wrong forum.

[wecanhaveallthree]

Now that the dust has settled, how do we feel about the creatures Malcador sees - think they're the Old Ones?

 

If so, since we're also told the Dark King prophecy was on Terra before mankind, certainly that must be connected.

 

Just crazy how Terra has ancient, obscure prophecies, complete libraries of Enuncia, Webway Gates out the wazoo...

[System Sound]

3 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

Just crazy how Terra has ancient, obscure prophecies, complete libraries of Enuncia, Webway Gates out the wazoo...

The Dark King prophecy was a thing everywhere from what the book tells us.

 

Well technically the webway gate was on Luna, that was Deus ex machinad there during Gathering Storm.

What emperor did was pretty much punch a hole into the webway and build a bridge of sorts.

 

As for Enuncia, I'm guessing that it's a similar case to one of the Ravenor books.

[Urauloth]

I'm curious to know if it gets picked up again in the Indomitus timeline that

 

Abaddon is the new Dark King, as Vigilus strongly hints - it was written before TEatD, though, so it's possible the current gravity of calling him "The Dark King" wasn't intentional. It would make sense, though, since he's the big lad of the gods and the most likely candidate for the prophecy if it's still a thing after TEatD III wraps up.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Urauloth
that's not how spoiler tags work!!

[DarkChaplain]

51 minutes ago, System Sound said:

The Dark King prophecy was a thing everywhere from what the book tells us.

 

Well technically the webway gate was on Luna, that was Deus ex machinad there during Gathering Storm.

What emperor did was pretty much punch a hole into the webway and build a bridge of sorts.

 

As for Enuncia, I'm guessing that it's a similar case to one of the Ravenor books.

 

Wasn't there another webway gate on Terra during The Beast Arises, with the Harlequins having to infiltrate the palace from outside?

[EverythingIsGreat]

Adding to the confusion is the insidtence on talking about (some) "dark king" as well as THE "Dark King". I'm starting to believe this is on purpose, and not just editorial oversight.

[wecanhaveallthree]

The murky monarch. The stygian sovereign. The pitch-dark prince. The caliginous crown...