EverythingIsGreat Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 In earlier lore, Horus savaged Sanguinius so badly that the Emperor witnessing either the savaging itself or Sang's ravaged remains, loses any compunction he may have had and completely annihilates Horus (it is stated elsewhere that the Anathema does not just banish demons, it extinguishes them). If that is still the case, there's a chance Abnett is having Horus wait for the Emperor to get there before he starts on Sang again. Why? Abnett can pick among a number of plausible reasons. Or, Sang is not coming back, and all the previous lore is shown to be a myth, propagated wilfully or unwillfully. Like all the instances where GW states, "It is said that So-and-so did Such-and- such" or an author has a character mouthing a statement. If readers or gamers accept that as in-universe truth, the joke may be on them. So in that case, TEATD is unique, as it could be what actually happened. Described hazily and momentarily before it is covered by the mythology again. Everybody wins, and Abnett/GW can have it both ways. PS It is interesting that both superhuman principals almost to the end, exhibit fundamental baseline-human psychological traits, eg. thinking that they can "turn" the other, or going to great lengths in making them an offer. Caught in the cycle of hope and despair like everybody else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6007514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 So maybe like the warp really did do it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6007618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 Spoiler In regards to Ferrus, I interpreted it as being Ferrus’ soul, but being forced into following a particular “script” by Horus. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6007625 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EverythingIsGreat Posted December 5, 2023 Share Posted December 5, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, DukeLeto69 said: So maybe like the warp really did do it! Deus Ex Machina As a plot device, it has been around for a minute Edited December 5, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat duh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6007635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void? Taliesin 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said: I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void? Pretty sure Haley is pushing that as well in his series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008095 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Very odd Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 I did like the nod to the Starchild lore. Haley's DI trilogy is pretty ambiguous about the status of the Emperor's divinity and I suspect that is deliberate. The opening of the Great Rift has disrupted the status-quo in ways that the forces of Chaos may not have expected. Whether the Emperor is becoming a god or the Starchild is starting to awaken is not clear. What we do know is that there is now a powerful entity in the Warp that seems to be on the Imperium's side. While its nature is still open to speculation, it is powerful enough to destroy part of Nurgle's garden meaning it can strike at the Chaos Gods on their own turf and that in itself is interesting. Of course TEATD2 also raises the risk that what is awakening could be the Dark King 2 (electric boogaloo). skylerboodie and Taliesin 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008105 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taliesin Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Marshal Rohr said: I haven’t been following the Bequin books, did Abnett include the Star Child reference as a tie in to those? Is someone looking for the emperors good parts floating in the void? Can you or someone else explain what exactly this book says about the Star child, perhaps quote the text? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 The emperor casts off a part of himself into the void where it will grow, etc etc. It is bright for a moment like a child Star, etc etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008120 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preliminary Bombardment Posted December 8, 2023 Share Posted December 8, 2023 Well that's me finished. There's probably 10 chapters in there worth reading. Not really looking forward to the final one now to be honest. No artist should get 100% creative freedom. System Sound, Nagashsnee, Loquille and 1 other 1 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorLoLz Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 The Highlander death didn't occur in Echoes of Eternity either, from memory. The World Eaters still went berserk after Sanguinius ripped Angron's brain out, but no 80's release of energy like there was with Ferrus, Alpharius, Mortarion (?), etc. There wasn't with Magnus either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagashsnee Posted December 9, 2023 Share Posted December 9, 2023 (edited) 38 minutes ago, TrevorLoLz said: The Highlander death didn't occur in Echoes of Eternity either, from memory. The World Eaters still went berserk after Sanguinius ripped Angron's brain out, but no 80's release of energy like there was with Ferrus, Alpharius, Mortarion (?), etc. There wasn't with Magnus either. For Angron: Spoiler 'Warpfire flares from the cracks in the beast’s deforming skull. ' and 'The daemon’s head bursts. It’s a detonation, a release of internal pressure like pus from a squeezed cyst:' To me was the highlander moment. As for magnus which time we talking haha. Magnus is weird cause he kinda dies in pieces. You have his 'dying' on prospero when he shatters into parts. His 'mortal' death in furry of magnus, him getting banished in Echoes. Plus 2-3 40k deaths which i dont really count. So its kinda of unique case i feel. For me his 'death' happens in fury of magnus when he gives himself over to chaos fully and finally and: Spoiler 'The last sliver within the Crimson King that clung to the material realm was finally obliterated, his body willingly given to the infernal masters in the darkness of the warp. He looked down upon the Salamanders, his eye pulsing with the sickly blue light of cancerous stars, poisoned light from worlds entirely given over to the Neverborn.' Which i think is the part where magnus the primarch 'dies' and magnus the deamon primarch is born if that makes sense? Tho i 100% will state again Magnus is a very weird case. The highlander death for me is tried to primarchs dying in the mortal sense, rather then deamon primarchs. So angron being blammed but then re forming on the spot is not really a death. Sanguinius is the first to actually 'kill' angron its the first time his souls is actually forced from the mortal plane and ascends into the warp. Likewise Magnus in fury of Magnus or Mortarion in Warhawk. In each case symbolically its the end of their mortal experience and the start of their full on ascension into etheral warp based beings. Tho i know this is 100% my view on the subject. Edited December 9, 2023 by Nagashsnee Roomsky, Scribe and DarkChaplain 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6008455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagashsnee Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 (edited) I am going thru know no fear again as i paint legions imperialis and i hit upon something to do with Sanguinius, Spoiler So for anyone who doesnt know Know no Fear is by the same author as these book, Abnett, it introduces the perpetuals, and involves Ol being sent on a vision quest of the end of the heresy. Where 'There is an angel dead on the floor. On the deck. The angel is a giant. He was beautiful. His sword is broken.'. To me there is no way Abnett cared enough and knew enough THEN to get this right and F it up now. To me this makes me truly believe that the time warping death/torture of Sanguinius is just beginning. Or Abnett has actually gotten WORSE at this as time goes on, as has BL. And they both utterly utterly failed to reference even his own prior portrayals of the scene. But for all my dislike of this book i cant see it, i cant see him overlooking this. Pulls tinfoil ever tighter. Edited December 14, 2023 by Nagashsnee DemonGSides 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Dont OD on that hopium Nagashsnee. ;) I think it was just a miss. DemonGSides and Nagashsnee 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Were people seriously unhappy with Sangy's death scene? I thought it was great. Exactly as I imagined it would play out ever since the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. Sangy gave it his all and fought a good fight but was not match for warp-juiced Horus. Much better than Russ hesitating in Wolfsbane. Granted we haven't seen the effect of his death on the BAs on Terra but it was literally in the last chapter of the book. I wasn't too fussed by the lack of a "Highlander effect". Ferus got decapitated by surprise and Alpharius exploded after Dorn cut through the power pack of his armour. Sangy has been fighting continuously for 6-7 months at this point and is fresh from a tag-team showdown with Ka Bandha and Angron. His psychic batteries are pretty much running on fumes by this point. DemonGSides, skylerboodie, Fire Golem and 1 other 2 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 Alpharius is a very special case in that he's still technically alive, being a twin-soul being. Omegon knew, could tell, but the full "being" hasn't died yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nagashsnee Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Karhedron said: Were people seriously unhappy with Sangy's death scene? I thought it was great. Exactly as I imagined it would play out ever since the 2nd edition Angels of Death codex. Sangy gave it his all and fought a good fight but was not match for warp-juiced Horus. Much better than Russ hesitating in Wolfsbane. Granted we haven't seen the effect of his death on the BAs on Terra but it was literally in the last chapter of the book. I wasn't too fussed by the lack of a "Highlander effect". Ferus got decapitated by surprise and Alpharius exploded after Dorn cut through the power pack of his armour. Sangy has been fighting continuously for 6-7 months at this point and is fresh from a tag-team showdown with Ka Bandha and Angron. His psychic batteries are pretty much running on fumes by this point. Its was fine, honestly i was so scared of a twist anything normal would have been fine. But some of it doesn't add up, primarily his sword being broken is something that has been laid down in the lore and re enforced again and again and again. Its shards have rules in the game, its gets refrenced in codexs and books edit even the Emperor vs Horus art has it broken in 2 versions or not in view in the rest. Even by Abnett himself in his earlier heresy books! Some things like the chink is the armor was always murky and could go either way depending on the authors preference. But things like the sword are either done for a reason, or its a f up. And if its the second case then for me it tars the whole scene. It is indicative of an author and editor who did not do the bear minimum of research. Or worse of all, they knew, remembered and decided to retcon it for no real reason going against tons of lore on the subject, several black library books and even in this instance in game rules. At which point you gotta wonder why they are even writing warhammer books (and why i dont believe this is the case). So i choose as Scribe says to take copium, and argue its not an oversight/mistake, and instead try to think why it would be done. Tho i know there is a school of people who 'dont care about what someone wrote in the past these book ARE the heresy now'. But honestly this view is so alien to me i try not to engage them. Edited December 14, 2023 by Nagashsnee DarkChaplain, Roomsky, Scribe and 2 others 3 1 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EverythingIsGreat Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Nagashsnee said: Spoiler So for anyone who doesnt know Know no Fear is by the same author as these book, Abnett, it introduces the perpetuals, and involves Ol being sent on a vision quest of the end of the heresy. Where 'There is an angel dead on the floor. On the deck. The angel is a giant. He was beautiful. His sword is broken.'. IIRC, the notion of perpetuals were first introduced in Legion. (Though the lore's much earlier Sensei are immortals too, and perhaps Abnett's prototype). As for the broken blade, visions and quests should not be viewed as in-universe "facts". Real-world, they could just as easily serve as author/editor plot markers, that may be amended without too much fussing about it. Edited December 14, 2023 by EverythingIsGreat typo Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeLeto69 Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 2 hours ago, Nagashsnee said: Its was fine, honestly i was so scared of a twist anything normal would have been fine. But some of it doesn't add up, primarily his sword being broken is something that has been laid down in the lore and re enforced again and again and again. Its shards have rules in the game, its gets refrenced in codexs and books edit even the Emperor vs Horus art has it broken in 2 versions or not in view in the rest. Even by Abnett himself in his earlier heresy books! Some things like the chink is the armor was always murky and could go either way depending on the authors preference. But things like the sword are either done for a reason, or its a f up. And if its the second case then for me it tars the whole scene. It is indicative of an author and editor who did not do the bear minimum of research. Or worse of all, they knew, remembered and decided to retcon it for no real reason going against tons of lore on the subject, several black library books and even in this instance in game rules. At which point you gotta wonder why they are even writing warhammer books (and why i dont believe this is the case). So i choose as Scribe says to take copium, and argue its not an oversight/mistake, and instead try to think why it would be done. Tho i know there is a school of people who 'dont care about what someone wrote in the past these book ARE the heresy now'. But honestly this view is so alien to me i try not to engage them. I’m sorta one those “it doesn’t really matter what was written before” as I do not see detail within the lore as sacrosanct. For me the overarching themes and big beats are what establishes the lore as being uniquely the 40k universe (ie the emperor has a load of “sons” some of who remained loyal and some who didn’t) but a sword breaking or some such is a bit meh! So what? Nagashsnee, Karhedron and Noctis 2 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009542 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I agree. Some people were speculating weird stuff such as Sangy turning or even killing Horus himself and the Emp getting crippled putting rabid Sanguinius down. That would have seriously annoyed me but trivial details like his sword not breaking "on screen" are too small for me to lose sleep over. Nagashsnee, Tymell, Dornfist and 2 others 1 4 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 For me, it’s more that it’s not quite seeming to be the sort of thing that causes such profound psychic shockwaves that it triggers the Black Rage. I mean, yeah, he got killed, but not exactly “this death shall shape the very soul of his Legion for thousands of years hence”. Nagashsnee and DarkChaplain 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Angel Scout Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 Story's not finished, last lines refer to his body being dragged away to be hung up, Blood Angels have a strange feeling of foreboding and shared visions from Sanguinius , last mention of Zephon about to experience his own personal hell in moments...the last scene is Sanguinius's death...the sword could be busted in the fight with the Emperor and Horus one of them might use it....haven't seen the Blood Angels to see how they react, for all we know they've been sharing the whole fight or if it's going to be reverse-Signus effect of him feeling each individual's death, each BA snaps in the blink of an eye. As much commentary on it being an extra volume aside, let's hold off on some "issues" being a thing before it's finished. Karhedron 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
63-19 Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 The volumes have been split up in a poor way just like how everyone thought Loken could use gate where ever he wanted to. Then immediately in vol 2 its reality breaking down. Just chill for a second. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted December 15, 2023 Share Posted December 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, 63-19 said: The volumes have been split up in a poor way just like how everyone thought Loken could use gate where ever he wanted to. Everyone? I think you mean one. lol DarkChaplain, Karhedron and Lord_Caerolion 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/379879-the-end-and-the-death-part-i-ii-iii/page/32/#findComment-6009582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now