The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[DarkChaplain]

6 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

 

No, he has written the final volume of the Dawn of Fire series.  It will be coming soon in parts 1 thru 5. 

This is what the crying reaction was for....

[MarineRaiderII]

Again, sadly I am probably the only one who feels this way but we got this treatment in MoM where the E is just too powerful for us mere readers to understand what he is thinking. We can see what Horus is thinking or RG but not him. I dont like it. 

 

There were choices, perhaps regrets and certainly loss but we cannot see a glimpse into why?

 

The whole DK thread is basically useless to me then as he gave up the ability to wipe out Horus and perhaps hold Chaos at bay forever because some guy asked him to do so? I'm not asking

for information on the two lost legions but we have the Emperor 20 years later and tens of thousands of pages and I sort of feel cheated in really the only thing I wanted to know....why, so many why's.

Edited January 10 by MarineRaiderII

[Lord_Caerolion]

The book’s pretty clear that he doesn’t give up the power “because some guy asked him to”, Olls presence and insistence made him begin to waver in his certainty, and he used his boosted power to be able to see the future as he wasn’t able to before, and see that Oll was right.

 

Don’t get me wrong, the plot thread is still woefully undersold, would have been best if it was hinted at from the very beginning, and is discarded way too quickly, but it is at least more than:

Emperor: “hey I’m the Dark King now” 

Oll: “could you not?”

Emperor: “well, since you asked nicely, okay!”

[wecanhaveallthree]

He has absolutely no reason at all to listen to Oll, though. At the very least it should require a far greater argument and expenditure of effort to get the Emperor to take any notice of what he has to say. The last time they met, Oll literally stabbed him. They're in this leg of the trousers of time because Oll put them here to begin with. Oll is not worth listening to, much less trusting. Oll is saying 'hey, throw away any chance at victory and species survival because, like, you don't wanna be a bad guy, right?'. The Emperor is marching right into suicide and the total victory of Chaos because it's... a better option? ???

 

This 'his boosted power' angle is nonsense, too, because he would have seen it as soon as he transformed and not needed this conversation to begin with. He was just a hair shy of all-knowing enough for this conversation to happen, I suppose.

 

And, again, the Emperor already had this 'revelation' back in Outcast Dead. He says straight up: sometimes all choices are bad, sometimes you just have to stalemate, sometimes you have to die to keep the game going and hope somebody makes a better move down the line. This was done, and done better, many, many books ago. It's just so damn frustrating how bad it is: it's totally undercooked, and it exists solely to put a plot element just introduced back into the box, wasting all these damn pages for effectively no payoff. It's such a massive waste of time.

[EverythingIsGreat]

I would hold off declaring the DK angle dead. There's one more massive volume to come, plus other books.

 

The lore portrays Oll with an uncommon level of "purity". He's likely older than the Emperor, probably knows as much about Chaos as the Emperor, and is shown to not be into himself. He basically could have been the Regent instead of Malcador, but stabbed his way out. He may not be trusted to follow orders, but he is to an extent predictable, trusted to act according to his (well-known) principles.

 

His fate is one of the things that keeps the SoT interesting, for me.

[Nagashsnee]

6 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

plus other books.

No, once part III drops its over. They had over 10 years, 60 books and all the time and resources in the world.  If they cannot wrap up the ending of the heresy in book 10 of the ending of the heresy mini series, they dont get to shield behind 'it will be explained in future books'.

 

This is the END (and the death), 2100 pages, following 7 others books following 50 other books PLUS this last volume. If they cannot resolve the plot points they made up at the last min then they have FAILED. Utterly and totally. Failed to plan/write/edit/produce . There is no more books, this is it, the finale of the finale. If they cant land the plan at long long last now they never will and need to accept that they have crashed it. 

 

What do you think this is? A Zack Snyder fan club?

[cheywood]

19 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

I would hold off declaring the DK angle dead. There's one more massive volume to come, plus other books.

 

The lore portrays Oll with an uncommon level of "purity". He's likely older than the Emperor, probably knows as much about Chaos as the Emperor, and is shown to not be into himself. He basically could have been the Regent instead of Malcador, but stabbed his way out. He may not be trusted to follow orders, but he is to an extent predictable, trusted to act according to his (well-known) principles.

 

His fate is one of the things that keeps the SoT interesting, for me.

Interesting take! 
 

As I see it The Emperor represents order, structure, and authoritarianism while Chaos represents disorder, randomness and anarchy (not exactly a novel interpretation on my part, I know). Oll feels to me to be somewhere in the middle, which is entirely appropriate for a human being. We are, after all, order and chaos bound together in one being, ever seeking meaning in the tumult, ever failing to master the tides of reality. Science takes it a step further and says that the human brain operates in a state of criticality - our brains are complex systems that live in the transitional space between order and disorder. 

Edited January 10 by cheywood

[EverythingIsGreat]

The notions of Order and Disorder are thought constructs, and may have nothing to do with reality. But they are good fodder for fiction. I didn't mean to give my characterization of Oll a philosophical bend. He obviously is as strongly opinionated as the Emperor, but his take is different.

 

Abnett himself said that he would like to write more about the HH/SoT and it may happen. Then, we will likely get more novellas and short stories by others. And the whole founding of the Inquisition (when told) will by necessity have linkages to the SoT/HH.

[cheywood]

4 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

The notions of Order and Disorder are thought constructs, and may have nothing to do with reality. But they are good fodder for fiction. I didn't mean to give my characterization of Oll a philosophical bend. He obviously is as strongly opinionated as the Emperor, but his take is different.

 

Abnett himself said that he would like to write more about the HH/SoT and it may happen. Then, we will likely get more novellas and short stories by others. And the whole founding of the Inquisition (when told) will by necessity have linkages to the SoT/HH.

I think the wires got a little crossed here. There are different types of order and disorder. Philosophical order and disorder, I would agree, are thought constructs. But scientifically, order and disorder are far from thought constructs. They’re measurable properties of complex systems that are deeply connected to reality, at least according to my limited knowledge. I was trying to draw a connection between Oll’s philosophical position on order/disorder, and the way in which the human brain exhibits the scientific quality of order/disorder. 
 

As I think others have mentioned, a lot of the Inquisition’s early days were already explored in The War of The Beast (and to a lesser extent The End and The Death). Presumably a Scouring series will fill in the blanks, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect BL to write a comprehensive history of the Inquisition’s founding at this point. 

[EverythingIsGreat]

53 minutes ago, cheywood said:

I think the wires got a little crossed here. There are different types of order and disorder. Philosophical order and disorder, I would agree, are thought constructs. But scientifically, order and disorder are far from thought constructs. They’re measurable properties of complex systems that are deeply connected to reality, at least according to my limited knowledge. I was trying to draw a connection between Oll’s philosophical position on order/disorder, and the way in which the human brain exhibits the scientific quality of order/disorder. 
 

As I think others have mentioned, a lot of the Inquisition’s early days were already explored in The War of The Beast (and to a lesser extent The End and The Death). Presumably a Scouring series will fill in the blanks, but I wouldn’t necessarily expect BL to write a comprehensive history of the Inquisition’s founding at this point. 

 

I did understand your take. I just wanted to show that it is ironic (per the lore) for Oll to accuse the Emperor of justifying the means to reach an end, and then to turn around and stab him in order to stop him. So Oll thinks his end justified his means. Because his end is better (according to Oll of course). To me there's no distinction between philosophical and scientific order. They both construct artificial systems, models of reality (not reality itself), and ascribe one state of the system as order and another as disorder. Which is harmless and efficient, until they assign values to them. But I will stop here because this is tiresome (for me, no offense intended).

 

I still think we may well get more material re:SoT after TEATD concludes. It seems to be treated as a setting, maybe I'm wrong.

[Scribe]

14 hours ago, MarineRaiderII said:

There were choices, perhaps regrets and certainly loss but we cannot see a glimpse into why?

 

This was what I was hoping to see as well, in what is the capstone to a decades work.

 

I'm trying to restrain any negativity until we get the last book, at which point the flood gates must open.

[DukeLeto69]

3 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

This was what I was hoping to see as well, in what is the capstone to a decades work.

 

I'm trying to restrain any negativity until we get the last book, at which point the flood gates must open.

I for one am looking forward to your take. I may not agree fully or even in part, but it will be interesting to read. Not long now...........

Edited January 10 by DukeLeto69

[Matcap86]

Aaaaaand the scalpers are already taking pre-orders so assured are they of getting their books...

:cuss: this takes the joy out of these collections. 

[Chapter Master Valrak]

Anyone see the apparent 'leaks', its so much made up BS it actually made me laugh out loud 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Share and share alike, friend.

[DarkChaplain]

Before falling asleep two nights ago, I had a pretty big iffy realization about some strangeness/contradiction/expectation about something and now I can't recall what it was anymore. It's been driving me up the wall today. I think I'll have to re-read the chapters I was thinking about when it came up, to see if it'll jog my memory.

 

Frustrating, I should've made a note on the phone, at least.

 

Also, I tried checking 40klore for potential spoilers/leaks, but found a certain Doombreed fan and Bequin/Valdor speculation instead. It's made me a little anxious about what is yet to come for Vol.3

[DukeLeto69]

55 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

Before falling asleep two nights ago, I had a pretty big iffy realization about some strangeness/contradiction/expectation about something and now I can't recall what it was anymore. It's been driving me up the wall today. I think I'll have to re-read the chapters I was thinking about when it came up, to see if it'll jog my memory.

 

Frustrating, I should've made a note on the phone, at least.

 

Also, I tried checking 40klore for potential spoilers/leaks, but found a certain Doombreed fan and Bequin/Valdor speculation instead. It's made me a little anxious about what is yet to come for Vol.3

The thing to be anxious of in Vol3 is the last page where it will say...

 

”To be concluded in The End And The Death Volume IV”

[Felix Antipodes]

I’d laugh if I was wasn’t slightly nervous that was true. 

Edited January 12 by Felix Antipodes
Fat fingers

[Karhedron]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:12 AM, MarineRaiderII said:

Again, sadly I am probably the only one who feels this way but we got this treatment in MoM where the E is just too powerful for us mere readers to understand what he is thinking. We can see what Horus is thinking or RG but not him. I dont like it. 

 

There were choices, perhaps regrets and certainly loss but we cannot see a glimpse into why?

 

The problem with trying to write from the Emperor's PoV is that you are trying to get someone with a normal human brain to convincingly portray a god-like intellect. That is very hard to pull off convincingly and probably why they have not tried earlier.

 

It is frustrating since we as readers want to know what the Emperor is really thinking about all this. The problem is that if we get it and the result is disappointing, it might be worse than never having tried. I think that is the reason ABD opted for the "how the Emperor is seen by those around him" approach and why BL has largely stuck with that ever since.

[Preliminary Bombardment]

So is number 3 up tomorrow morning for pre order then?

[Ubiquitous1984]

14 minutes ago, Preliminary Bombardment said:

So is number 3 up tomorrow morning for pre order then?

Yes, be ready from 954 GMT if you want a shot at the LE.

[Rob P]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

The problem with trying to write from the Emperor's PoV is that you are trying to get someone with a normal human brain to convincingly portray a god-like intellect. That is very hard to pull off convincingly and probably why they have not tried earlier.

 

It is frustrating since we as readers want to know what the Emperor is really thinking about all this. The problem is that if we get it and the result is disappointing, it might be worse than never having tried. I think that is the reason ABD opted for the "how the Emperor is seen by those around him" approach and why BL has largely stuck with that ever since.

Is that right? I've not really cared about the Emperor's intellect and haven't really assumed he's that clever (his actions suggest otherwise!).

 

I've always thought it was about intrigue. What did he really think of the primarchs? Did he plan some of or for the heresy? Are the interpretations in MoM accurate or the result of mischief/a glamour? What really happened on Molech the first and second time? Where these questions have been answered in some manner, i've not been satisfied with the answer and the ambiguity has always felt safe.

 

-------------------

 

One thing I did like in this book that felt like a nod to the Dornian Heresy was:

 

Spoiler

the implication of Nurgle wanting Sanguinius. The obvious impression from a number of works is Khorne wanting the Blood Angels, but a good case could be made for all of the gods having aspects of the Blood Angels to tug at.

 

[Sabadin]

10 hours ago, DukeLeto69 said:

The thing to be anxious of in Vol3 is the last page where it will say...

 

”To be concluded in The End And The Death Volume IV”

I'm more worried it will say "To be continued..."

[TheVoidDragon]

Is the queue system likely to appear on the website tommorow for the pre-orders? I can't remember what happened with part 1 and 2

[OpossumStrong]

Yes it's already up for NZ.