The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[DarkChaplain]

What are the bets on John Grammaticus getting permanently killed in volume 3? It sure looks like he's on the way out, and he is on his last life, too. But we're still missing that Enuncia-Babel-payoff from John seeing Oll's memories and getting "infected" by witnessing the dictionary.

 

Spoiler

Considering Bequin (and the attempts to catalog Enuncia in the series), I could totally see Dan not saying goodbye to John for good. And we've already seen one Perpetual giving up his life to bring another back in the Siege series. And since John was an artificial Perpetual to begin with, eh, no reason why he couldn't get made one again. Eldrad already got a cameo, it wouldn't be absurd to think he might show up when the dust has settled and finds his old acquaintance still miraculously breathing. We do know that Ulthwé is deeply invested in what is going on in Bequin / Ravenor, so the link isn't even far out there anymore.

...and if we were to assume that "Alpharius" is actually Ingo Pech....?

 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I'm just sort of flabbergasted that the Long Companions do an about-face at the end of the book - they have a literal temporal need to not be at the 'final confrontation', as well as accepting that the Emperor is almost certain to fail and that they're being entrusted to essentially keep the flame alive in that event. The Emperor gives them a charge and a burden which they accept. I'm wondering how Oll is going to get back there, but it seems a decent bet that John is going to survive.

[Scribe]

Remember when John had his face removed? And then had it undone within a few pages*? I dont care if he lives, dies, is unmentioned.

 

* Disclaimer, I have no idea how many pages, real or imagined, took place between these events, and I certainly dont care to look.

[EverythingIsGreat]

22 minutes ago, Scribe said:

Remember when John had his face removed? And then had it undone within a few pages*? I dont care if he lives, dies, is unmentioned.

 

* Disclaimer, I have no idea how many pages, real or imagined, took place between these events, and I certainly dont care to look.

 

 

But that was a gift from the Big Man. It would be impolite to refuse. Plus the Emperor "fixed" Oll (and I think LE2) as well.

[Scribe]

22 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

 

But that was a gift from the Big Man. It would be impolite to refuse. Plus the Emperor "fixed" Oll (and I think LE2) as well.

 

Yes, nothing like undoing the logical development of the story just to make sure the pieces are where you want them for the final (please god) book. ;)

[Rob P]

I was utterly convinced that they were just going to waste Oll boosting Malcador for another 5 min in book 2

[Nagashsnee]

26 minutes ago, Rob P said:

I was utterly convinced that they were just going to waste Oll boosting Malcador for another 5 min in book 2

 

You cant waste a character like Oll, only redeem his existence. 

[DarkChaplain]

Since i was re-reading a few chapters to figure out what I forgot, I think I finally pinpointed my issue with the whole "give the power up"-talk in Vol.2.

 

Ironically, it is partially that there is no chapter split.

 

Oll tells the Emperor to use his godly power to "think harder, man" and.... the Emperor thinks between the lines. He does so within what, a single page, a few paragraphs down.

It is brought up and then is swiftly concluded. Yes, they chatted before then, and there were chapter breaks there. But the actual solution is presented and just taken with so little fanfare as to the Emperor's side of things, it's utterly anticlimactic.

 

For once, Abnett chose not to break up the ongoing plot, not to maintain suspense for a couple of chapters of doom and gloom, and not to be overly descriptive of the metaphysical. And it results in a weird case of whiplash and letdown.

 

Imagine that this moment, the plea by Oll for the Emperor to use his divinity to look deeper, is left on a cliffhanger, leaving the reader with momentary uncertainty. Heck, even without switching the scene to elsewhere, even just having that break in flow would build a sort of suspense by itself.

 

But now imagine that instead of one of those redundant doom and gloom chapters, we'd gotten a brief glimpse of the Emperor's vision. Not even his thoughts, really, just something like

Quote

"...and then He sees it: <metaphysical mumbo jumbo>"

 

Imagine Dan Abnett piling it up for real here. Laying out the trap Chaos set for the Emperor. The outcome we know, the outcome we suspect, the outcome to be feared. The doom of the species entire, the fall of empires, the potential birth of a new Eye of Terror, just going to town with his esoteric descriptions of just how f'd humanity might be with the Emperor becoming the Dark King. Even without future sight (because hurr durr there is no future, even though the Emperor is the most powerful being in the galaxy, a literal god, transcending everything, unrestrained, and Terra/Sol is just one location within the cosmos... and apparently just afterwards, we have a silly closed time loop within a space that warps time and space and has no meaning for time any longer), paint the picture, Dan! Show us what it is that turns the Emperor around!

 

Instead, we are left with the impression that Oll's words were the crux, rather than the Emperor doing as begged and deciding based on that. There's a difference between Oll being the deciding factor entire and the Emperor-as-God doing something prompted by Oll that he simply, in his unimaginable divinity and boundless power and wisdom, apparently didn't do or consider before being pointed at it.

 

A scene like this would've fit in this mammoth book easily, would've reinforced the themes and threat emanating from this course of action and improved pacing and drama.

Instead, we have Oll becoming an atheist in a show of emotion and it looks like the Emperor goes "Damn, bro, if you go as far as throwing away your wife's pendant, it must be true". This is unsatisfying as far as resolutions go.

[Nagashsnee]

20 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

the Emperor goes "Damn, bro, if you go as far as throwing away your wife's pendant, it must be true". This is unsatisfying as far as resolutions go.

You know if the Emperor suddenly shifted into talking like a stereotypical bro mates with Oll it would it would have been fantastic. 

 

Oll: Close your eyes bro, and tell me what do you see?

E: Omg nothing brah.

Oll: Thats humanity if you go all weird god powa bro!

E: BRAH!

Oll: I know bro. 

E:I missed you brah.

Oll: Me too bro. 

 

That or have a editor read and edit the drafts. Either would have been great, 

Edited January 13 by Nagashsnee

[lansalt]

7 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

This is unsatisfying as far as resolutions go.

To put it mildly, yeah. I have the feel that Abnett must have decided to discard his original plan for the end of the Perpetuals storyline, there's no way it was always suppossed to end in a whimper like this. Maybe the many complains against it for years or the negativity against Erda (and how Erebus killing her was celebrated) finally got to him or the editors, and they decided to play it safe in the end with just a bit of fanservice ("Here's Erebus killing Oll's friends too! Are you happy now?").
Personally, I think it's a shame and he should have commited to make it meaningful in the end, because this makes the Perpetuals retroactively a giant waste of time with no real payoff and leaves whole chapters of past books as nonsense filler or directly retconned (Oll was a believer in Know No Fear).

It's like the Darth Jar Jar/The Mule theory of the Star Wars Prequels: Fan backslash causes author to change course but leaving everyone dissatisfied anyway.

[Rob P]

The whole Dark King reveal in book 2 was clunky. Might read better as one book of thousands of pages, but it had what I can only call Dr Who vibes.

 

I'll explain what I mean... In the more recent Dr Who (Tennant onwards) the penultimate series episode tends to end on an impossible climax then the first part of the final episode resolves the impossible situation in a handwaving way and the real threat of the finale is revealed and the episode continues.

 

That how I felt from book 1 to book 2 in relation to the Dark King.

 

Book 1 - dark king, what's this? Dark king is this.

Book 2 - nah dark king is this instead (imo out of nowhere) and it's much worse. It's ok, we resolved it in a page.

 

What doesn't help is that I was convinced it would be the Dark Prince Belakor (don't think I was aware it was 3 books at this point) and I was convinced he'd be the midpoint boss

[lansalt]

Given the emphasis on the nature of the God-Emperor in recent 40k/30k books, it was obvious to me that the Dark King was just another name for him.  Just a red herring for the characters while the reader screams at them for not seeing the obvious implication.

All those wannabe 5th chaos god characters like Belakor or Vashtorr do not even compare and they have literally no chance in hell.

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, Rob P said:

What doesn't help is that I was convinced it would be the Dark Prince Belakor (don't think I was aware it was 3 books at this point) and I was convinced he'd be the midpoint boss

 

Man, Be'lakor showing up to try again where he failed in WHFB's End Times already would've been fun. But he got namedropped along all the other named daemons by Horus in book 1 already, so I didn't feel this was a possibility.

 

Instead, I always expected Lorgar Aurelian to show up and usurp Horus' power, especially after his humbling and apparent retreat in Slaves to Darkness. It'd also have made it much more interesting as far as Corax hunting him in the Eye goes. And with Erebus involved, it'd be sweet to have Lorgar actually getting a meaningful role in the Siege...

[System Sound]

While it being Lorgar would be actually interesting, it's gonna be Abandon. Just to :cuss: with the lore and have that surprise twist...

[EverythingIsGreat]

Since the decision was taken not to use the Emperor POV, we are left with the major character not being allowed to internalize for the benefit of readers.

Would hate to be the storyteller in the circumstances. 

[DukeLeto69]

I don’t think we are done with The Dark King...just saying!

[Dornfist]

I'm wondering if we will get a surprise Lorgar reveal in the final volume considering Samus mentioned him in the prologue of Vol. I, and considering he instigated most of the Heresy, why wouldn't he show up for the finale? Maybe he sabotages Lupercal in revenge for his "humbling" at Ullanor?

 

And as for the Emperor POV being hidden, I find that GW are playing it safe that way and are continuing a policy that has been in place since "Master of Mankind".

[Scribe]

Thanks @DarkChaplain for putting a spotlight on exactly why the (pivotal?!) moment of the whole book, the BIG SCENE, fell utterly flat. This will be stored in memory until my final review of the combined book.

[Rob P]

5 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

Man, Be'lakor showing up to try again where he failed in WHFB's End Times already would've been fun. But he got namedropped along all the other named daemons by Horus in book 1 already, so I didn't feel this was a possibility.

 

Instead, I always expected Lorgar Aurelian to show up and usurp Horus' power, especially after his humbling and apparent retreat in Slaves to Darkness. It'd also have made it much more interesting as far as Corax hunting him in the Eye goes. And with Erebus involved, it'd be sweet to have Lorgar actually getting a meaningful role in the Siege...

Lorgar's departure felt less than final and the only saving grace is that it presents an opportunity for another story. I definitely agree that Lorgar's involvement in the Siege would have been welcomed.

 

Putting aside all the memes, I'm still not sure if he's the most intelligent regarding the gods/metaphysical or the most naive and whether his power level is top tier or low.

 

A complete aside, I'd love to see role reversals for some of the primarchs in 40k and specifically Lorgar repentant or absolved and maybe Corax as a spectre of death.

[darkhorse0607]

So the excerpt is available now on BL's website

 

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/ebook-the-end-and-the-death-volume-iii-eng-2024.html

 

Spoilers for that ahead obviously even though it's not very long and doesn't have anything major (IMO)

 

Spoiler

I thought there were more than 20 Glorianas? Lexicanum has it at 25, even barring one or two from that list it should be at least 23

 

Also where did Thiel come from? Didn't he stay back in Ultramar given that I don't believe we have seen him since Strategum?

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Spoiler

Yeah, the Glorianas were initially depicted as each Legion only having one, and no others existing. Later, they started expanding the numbers, but still having most Legions only with 1, but some having 2 or 3. The Forge World write-up definitely implies the DA got multiple. 

 

[DarkChaplain]

For heaven's sake, is he finally doing it?

 

Spoiler

Is Dan FINALLY giving us an outside perspective to show just how messed up time and space actually are at Sol? Far, far too late, honestly. And we'll see how far he's gonna go with it.

 

[neOh (AV)]

New Emp's portrait spotted

[Lord_Caerolion]

Spoiler

This is probably going to be another of those “prologue” sequences like the teaser for Part 2. We’ll get this, a sequence of Eldrad saying he feels the Dark King has passed, maybe Kelbor-Hal saying how the anomaly has reached Mars, then the main book will go right back to the same endless jumping microchapters as before.

 

[Dornfist]

1 hour ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

  Hide contents

This is probably going to be another of those “prologue” sequences like the teaser for Part 2. We’ll get this, a sequence of Eldrad saying he feels the Dark King has passed, maybe Kelbor-Hal saying how the anomaly has reached Mars, then the main book will go right back to the same endless jumping microchapters as before.

 

Aye: the true End and the Death for us readers...