The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Marshal Rohr]

Are we banning Vol 3 spoilers or can we just go ahead and openly discuss them. Not sure what the point in trying to keep them secret is anymore. 

[System Sound]

6 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Are we banning Vol 3 spoilers or can we just go ahead and openly discuss them. Not sure what the point in trying to keep them secret is anymore. 

Mark it as spoiler and it should be fine?

[Ubiquitous1984]

How are people getting book 3 spoilers?  Has the ebook leaked already??

[Gongsun Zan]

15 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

So the excerpt is available now on BL's website

 

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/ebook-the-end-and-the-death-volume-iii-eng-2024.html

 

Spoilers for that ahead obviously even though it's not very long and doesn't have anything major (IMO)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I thought there were more than 20 Glorianas? Lexicanum has it at 25, even barring one or two from that list it should be at least 23

 

Also where did Thiel come from? Didn't he stay back in Ultramar given that I don't believe we have seen him since Strategum?

 

Spoiler

I hate this.

 

The Ultramarines not being able to arrive on time was all the story needed. Instead now we have Dan intentionally writing away all sense of in-universe logic to set up a completely unneeded and nonsensical battle that has zero stakes since we already know how this ends.

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, Gongsun Zan said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

I hate this.

 

The Ultramarines not being able to arrive on time was all the story needed. Instead now we have Dan intentionally writing away all sense of in-universe logic to set up a completely unneeded and nonsensical battle that has zero stakes since we already know how this ends.

 

 

However, previous lore stated that one reason (perhaps the main one) that Horus dropped the shields on VS is precisely because the Ultras' arrival was imminent. So this may slot in there properly.

[DarkChaplain]

19 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

So the excerpt is available now on BL's website

 

https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/ebook-the-end-and-the-death-volume-iii-eng-2024.html

 

Spoilers for that ahead obviously even though it's not very long and doesn't have anything major (IMO)

 

  Hide contents

I thought there were more than 20 Glorianas? Lexicanum has it at 25, even barring one or two from that list it should be at least 23

 

Also where did Thiel come from? Didn't he stay back in Ultramar given that I don't believe we have seen him since Strategum?

 

 

Spoiler

I did some rechecking and Thiel wasn't even mentioned in Ruinstorm or Spear of Ultramar (y'know, the Siege prequel novella). He also wasn't in Angels of Caliban.

Thiel should not be here. He was ditched for a side content series back in Ultramar, not quite as forgotten as freakin' Alexis Pollux, but forgotten and abandoned nonetheless.

 

IF Thiel had been there, events in Ruinstorm in particular might've played out differently.

 

[lansalt]

13 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

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I did some rechecking and Thiel wasn't even mentioned in Ruinstorm or Spear of Ultramar (y'know, the Siege prequel novella). He also wasn't in Angels of Caliban.

Thiel should not be here. He was ditched for a side content series back in Ultramar, not quite as forgotten as freakin' Alexis Pollux, but forgotten and abandoned nonetheless.

 

IF Thiel had been there, events in Ruinstorm in particular might've played out differently.

 

 

Spoiler

Agreed, this is Abnett disregarding the work of other authors to feature as fanservice the characters he created in Know No Fear.
Thiel was last seen leading his "dirty dozen" Red Marked in protecting Ultramar of traitor incursions, and all pointed to him having been left there with that job.

 

[Scribe]

What a shocking turn of events. /s

[darkhorse0607]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

 

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Agreed, this is Abnett disregarding the work of other authors to feature as fanservice the characters he created in Know No Fear.
Thiel was last seen leading his "dirty dozen" Red Marked in protecting Ultramar of traitor incursions, and all pointed to him having been left there with that job.

 

 

Spoiler

That's what it kind of came off as to me. I, like my fellow salty Frator Scribe, am trying to keep an open mind but this isn't building my confidence. Is it a huge deal? No, but come on man

 

[DukeLeto69]

So am missing something here? I listened to the snippet on BL and it seems clear this is warp shenanigans and the Vengeful Spirit becoming synonymous with the warp and bring omnipresent (not really the right word but VS being all encompassing and everywhere across all time etc)

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, DukeLeto69 said:

 

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So am missing something here? I listened to the snippet on BL and it seems clear this is warp shenanigans and the Vengeful Spirit becoming synonymous with the warp and bring omnipresent (not really the right word but VS being all encompassing and everywhere across all time etc)

 

 

Are you talking Book 2 or 3?

[DukeLeto69]

1 minute ago, Scribe said:

 

Are you talking Book 2 or 3?

Oops sorry book 3. Have I been caught up in warp shenanigans too?  

[Taliesin]

7 hours ago, Ubiquitous1984 said:

How are people getting book 3 spoilers?  Has the ebook leaked already??

 

Seems unlikely.

[EverythingIsGreat]

2 hours ago, USNCenturion said:

Dark Angels and Space Wolves arrival was imminent. 

 

As well, not instead of.

 

Apart from Thiel, there's not much of interest in the extract. We knew since 8/1 (it was discussed in the part 1 thead iirc) that VS's position could not be fixed, so effectively it is everywhere and nowhere. 

 

Per EoE, the Conqueror was blocking a text transmission from Guilliman. So things must have somehow progressed since then.

[Karhedron]

59 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Per EoE, the Conqueror was blocking a text transmission from Guilliman. So things must have somehow progressed since then.

 

Yes, there was a bit TEATD Part 1 (I think) where it mentioned that Horus let Guilliman's tranmission through as soon as the Emperor teleported. Once Anabasis was aboard the Vengeful Spirit, the trap was closed and letting the remaining defenders know that Guilliman was coming was rubbing salt in the wound.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Hey, listen. A lot of you seem to forget this axiom:

 

Any character abnett introduces should have had been the focus of their legions. Any character other authors introduce for those legions are free real estate.

 

It's obvious that thiel was supposed to have been carried along as a close confidant of RGs, and every author who failed to develop that plot point is to blame for this course correction. Ignore the fact that thiel didn't show up in abnetts last Ultramarines book Unremembered Empire and was possibly killed.

[1ncarnadine]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Any character other authors introduce for those legions are free real estate..

 

*weeps for Endryd Haar*

I'm still not over some of the bad choices in Saturnine, let alone the un-edited mess this "book" has turned out to be

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

Predictions:

 

1) Loken lives.  "I was there..." is survivor talk, so says Keeler.  I was doubting this a bit until he passed Mourn-it-all, on to LE2.

 

2) LE2 dies because he had the misfortune to wield Mourn-it-all against Horus.  I think the sword will reveal its demonic nature.

 

3) The loss is really Abaddon's fault.  His presence at the final fight is not apart of Horus's plan.  He is rouge an it will be on him when it all goes south.

 

 

[Scribe]

6 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

3) The loss is really Abaddon's fault.  His presence at the final fight is not apart of Horus's plan.  He is rouge an it will be on him when it all goes south.

 

Considering we have no mention of anything like that in either of the Black Legion books?

 

Yeah, probably.

[DukeLeto69]

Oh yee Fraters of little Faith. Brother Abnett will make it all come good in the last 25 pages

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(and the extra Novella not yet announced).

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

4 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Considering we have no mention of anything like that in either of the Black Legion books?

 

Yeah, probably.

 

 

What good is predicting something that has been mentioned before?

[darkhorse0607]

7 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Considering we have no mention of anything like that in either of the Black Legion books?

 

Yeah, probably.

 

 

Speaking of which, what do we think the odds are that Abnett undoes his oopsie and unkills Kibre in part 3 considering the next time we see him is in Talon of Horus, a little more demony but alive

[Scribe]

5 hours ago, Lord Lorne Walkier said:

What good is predicting something that has been mentioned before?

 

Using past behavior as a predictor of the future is fairly common.

 

3 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

Speaking of which, what do we think the odds are that Abnett undoes his oopsie and unkills Kibre in part 3 considering the next time we see him is in Talon of Horus, a little more demony but alive

 

I dont have much expectation there. It was such a weird move on his part in Saturnine, just seemed like a mistake.

[DarkChaplain]

He just couldn't stop himself from killing off another relevant Sons of Horus characters with actual development from other authors so he wouldn't need to bother with them in the final 3-tome-book :^)

 

That mention of Endryd last page really ruffled my feathers again. Saturnine ended so many interesting characters and their arcs.

People were upset back in the day when the Alpha Legion got their major plotline ended in a brutal way without seeing it to an actual conclusion in Praetorian of Dorn (even though not reaching a proper conclusion to their convoluted plans, with them spiting their own face out of hubris, was the point), but Saturnine just axed many characters unceremoniously, and thus also narrowed the range of available characters for the remaining books. Seeing all the newly invented characters in The End and the Death, and the lip service paid to and strange turns taken by established characters, it's pretty clear that Abnett just doesn't really know what to do with these figures.

 

So he either brings in his old creations or resets them back in development to where he wants them, or makes up new ones without a legacy at the finish line.

 

And I tell ya, if he manages to bring in Guilliman and actually mentions Euten without acknowledging her death en route to Terra, I'll flip a table.

[EverythingIsGreat]

22 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

He just couldn't stop himself from killing off another relevant Sons of Horus characters with actual development from other authors so he wouldn't need to bother with them in the final 3-tome-book :^)

 

That mention of Endryd last page really ruffled my feathers again. Saturnine ended so many interesting characters and their arcs.

People were upset back in the day when the Alpha Legion got their major plotline ended in a brutal way without seeing it to an actual conclusion in Praetorian of Dorn (even though not reaching a proper conclusion to their convoluted plans, with them spiting their own face out of hubris, was the point), but Saturnine just axed many characters unceremoniously, and thus also narrowed the range of available characters for the remaining books. Seeing all the newly invented characters in The End and the Death, and the lip service paid to and strange turns taken by established characters, it's pretty clear that Abnett just doesn't really know what to do with these figures.

 

So he either brings in his old creations or resets them back in development to where he wants them, or makes up new ones without a legacy at the finish line.

 

And I tell ya, if he manages to bring in Guilliman and actually mentions Euten without acknowledging her death en route to Terra, I'll flip a table.

 

I am one of those ambivalent about Praetorian of Dorn for the Alpha reasons you mentioned, even though, as you say perhaps the point was to teach these smug "artist" (of a fashion) types a lesson, even inadvertently.

 

Abnett likes conceits, so who knows. By the end of 8/3 Guilliman may still be stuck at the Sol System's edge playing Battleship (the game) with the VS. And here comes the novella of the Ultras finally arriving post-Emperor Ascension (to the Golden Throne) and having to deal with the debris. Of both Imperium Primus and Secundus.

 

This extract achieved its aims, publicity-wise. 

Edited January 15 by EverythingIsGreat
clarity