The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[tgcleric]

On 1/18/2024 at 11:53 PM, Nagashsnee said:

 

Show me dont tell me, BL told me they had meetings and planned it all out, but they did not show me it with the product i got. The team made statements on what they were going to do, they did not, so who cares what they said?  The authors all kept in contact to make sure they did not overlapped? They overlapped...book 8 part I especially. 

 

GW says fans will have a chance to buy the Siege LE at 10 (in print, by email, every single time), but see thats what they are telling me, what they show me is 09:56-57 its already sold out (before they told me anything). Show, dont tell me.  I may 'not know how writing works', but i am pretty sure show don't tell is a key part of it. 

 

The book was written years before they kept lying about how many books there are?   Or was it was a draft and they had no idea on what the final book number was, were they lying on the number of books for years? Or was the split a more last minute affair. So which is it? Honestly who cares! They showed me in print (and told me) that this is a 8 book affair. It isnt. Hell my LE has the 'to be concluded in...' printed in it only for it to not be the case. See I am showing that this 3 parter was at best a wild chaotic rush to printers affair. And something rushed and decided on last minute will always always suffer.   

 

I have been very fortunate in my life to have attended a great many GW/BL/FW events and spoken to enough of them (Abnett and Kyme included) to have a very basic understanding (tho these things do change) on BL workings. Not speculation, but BL telling me how BL works. . I also have a basic understanding on how a large corporation works (tho I wish I did not, and instead had a better understanding on how winning the lottery works).

 

For the past 2 years on this forum you would assume that while unfortunate the III part siege finale has not met with universal acclaim. Indeed many are finding it a let down, with bloat and poor editing being common complaints across both books.  And its fine to not share that view, many people are loving it! And thats fine too, but telling other people they they lack the very very very basic critical thinking skills to draw opinions on the book and what it shows of its creation process is simply insulting. 

 

 

 

Never had any issue with people not liking the book, or any book. They all are more than worthy of any criticism. 

 

As my post said, I find it silly to argue when people make assumptions and speculate about the authors intentions, and his ego, or that they don't care about this or that.  That's what I was saying. And what it seemed like Duke was saying as well.

 

Heck even just saying the characters "feel like" the authors don't talk to each other, would be better. Cause then it's about the work itself and trying to explain what doesn't work for you. 

 

I just find that some people here, their criticism starts from "this guy does this" "this author does that" "these people don't care or talk to eachother". And more often than not that criticism is said with a sort of relish and before even reading the book. 

 

It's the sort of criticism and discussion you really only find in fan forums. And I just don't find it interest, frankly. Or productive. And often toxic. 

 

Crap on the book all you want after you read it. I might too. I had plenty of issues with vol 2 even if I ended up liking it more than I didn't. Abnett still may not be able to land the plane. But I definitely know he's trying to. 

Edited January 20 by tgcleric

[caladancid]

15 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

Never had any issue with people not liking the book, or any book. They all are more than worthy of any criticism. 

 

As my post said, I find it silly to argue when people make assumptions and speculate about the authors intentions, and his ego, or that they don't care about this or that.  That's what I was saying. And what it seemed like Duke was saying as well.

 

Heck even just saying the characters "feel like" the authors don't talk to each other, would be better. Cause then it's about the work itself and trying to explain what doesn't work for you. 

 

I just find that some people here, their criticism starts from "this guy does this" "this author does that" "these people don't care or talk to eachother". And more often than not that criticism is said with a sort of relish and before even reading the book. 

 

It's the sort of criticism and discussion you really only find in fan forums. And I just don't find it interest, frankly. Or productive. And often toxic. 

 

Crap on the book all you want after you read it. I might too. I had plenty of issues with vol 2 even if I ended up liking it more than I didn't. Abnett still may not be able to land the plane. But I definitely know he's trying to. 

 

You are fighting the good fight here, but there is an entrenched group of folks (a clique) who have really caused a downturn in quality conversation here over the past little while. Its particularly bad in this thread, but not isolated to it.

 

Hopefully we can get back to reading before commenting and less factionalism.

[phandaal]

12 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

You are fighting the good fight here, but there is an entrenched group of folks (a clique) who have really caused a downturn in quality conversation here over the past little while. Its particularly bad in this thread, but not isolated to it.

 

Hopefully we can get back to reading before commenting and less factionalism.

 

Yeah, as someone who likes to check these threads out before buying, you are both 100% spot on. So much of the feedback seems to be directed at opinions about authors rather than opinions on books that apparently people are not even reading.

[Scribe]

I dont know what you guys are on about. Pretty much everyone who read these books is in alignment over the issues, or is one of the few who believe Abnett is gods gift to BL.

[neOh (AV)]

The time has come, i guess

[Scribe]

Time for me to start checking book stores.

[timmeh1]

I always lurked this forum but signed up to say watch out for spoilers as it's out in the open now.  There were four copies at my local Chapters (Indigo now I guess..)  so I grabbed one last night and finished it today.  I thought it was better than volume 1 and 2.

[Scribe]

9 minutes ago, timmeh1 said:

I always lurked this forum but signed up to say watch out for spoilers as it's out in the open now.  There were four copies at my local Chapters (Indigo now I guess..)  so I grabbed one last night and finished it today.  I thought it was better than volume 1 and 2.

 

Full spoilers, if you are so inclined would be appreciated.

[timmeh1]

Sure, give me a bit to type some out. 

testing spoiler tag.

[darkhorse0607]

37 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Full spoilers, if you are so inclined would be appreciated.

 

Don't try to get out of this Scribe. You're in until the end like the rest of us

[caladancid]

6 hours ago, Scribe said:

I dont know what you guys are on about. Pretty much everyone who read these books is in alignment over the issues, or is one of the few who believe Abnett is gods gift to BL.

 

46 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Full spoilers, if you are so inclined would be appreciated.

 

This is a great example of what I'm on about. Almost 18 years since this series started, and you can't wait a week.

 

And, once these 'spoilers' are posted from someone who tells you they read (thoroughly I'm sure) a 700 page book in less than 24 hours, the reactions will begin. How do I know- you've done it before. And those reactions will continue from the same group of folks, meanwhile as others actually read the novel an entirely new school of thought will emerge.

 

It is bad for this forum, its bad for actual discussion. 

 

Go look at review sites, and you will see a very different story in terms of what people think of the quality of these books. And of course everyone gets to have their own opinion, but it sure seems like when people read the book for themselves its a totally different look than this thread.

 

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

 

This is a great example of what I'm on about. Almost 18 years since this series started, and you can't wait a week.

 

And, once these 'spoilers' are posted from someone who tells you they read (thoroughly I'm sure) a 700 page book in less than 24 hours, the reactions will begin. How do I know- you've done it before. And those reactions will continue from the same group of folks, meanwhile as others actually read the novel an entirely new school of thought will emerge.

 

It is bad for this forum, its bad for actual discussion. 

 

Go look at review sites, and you will see a very different story in terms of what people think of the quality of these books. And of course everyone gets to have their own opinion, but it sure seems like when people read the book for themselves its a totally different look than this thread.

 

 

I've read each book. Yes, there are some knee jerk reactions and yes, we have some laughs.

 

I cannot think of one take so far, that was wildly wrong when it comes to these overly bloated books.

 

So yeah, I want the spoilers, so I know how annoyed I will be when I fork out my 50 bucks.

 

No new school of thought has formed to date, because these books are a poorly edited dump of text.

[cheywood]

3 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

 

This is a great example of what I'm on about. Almost 18 years since this series started, and you can't wait a week.

 

And, once these 'spoilers' are posted from someone who tells you they read (thoroughly I'm sure) a 700 page book in less than 24 hours, the reactions will begin. How do I know- you've done it before. And those reactions will continue from the same group of folks, meanwhile as others actually read the novel an entirely new school of thought will emerge.

 

It is bad for this forum, its bad for actual discussion. 

 

Go look at review sites, and you will see a very different story in terms of what people think of the quality of these books. And of course everyone gets to have their own opinion, but it sure seems like when people read the book for themselves its a totally different look than this thread.

 

Basing one’s opinion on spoilers is something I loathe, couldn’t agree with you more. And I agree there’s more emotion around the quality of TE&TD than you usually see from this forum. I think that makes sense, it’s perhaps the most significant BL work since Horus Rising began the Heresy, and Abnett wrote something intentionally surreal. 

 

But it’s not like the reception of TE&TD has been entirely positive, especially part 2. Goodreads has Volume 1 as the third most highly rated Siege novel, just below Saturnine and Echoes, but Volume 2 is all the way down at number 6, below Warhawk and The Lost and The Damned (I think the fan base at large is too enamored of Haley’s work, but that’s a separate discussion). Michael at Track of Words, among the more relentlessly positive voices in the community when it comes to the writing itself, isn’t a huge fan of the novels either. He gave Volume 2 a 3.5.
 

Personally I love the books, flaws and all, but Abnett decided to mix his brilliantly inventive mil-sci with some experimental literature and it’s inevitable that people will have feeings about that. 

[DarkChaplain]

....I'm honestly more amused of TEATD Vol.3 sitting next to a League of Legends novel by Anthony Reynolds. You know, Word Bearers Anthony? The other Reynolds?

 

Because Riot have been getting a bunch of former BL writers to work for them, some of them full time, like Laurie Goulding and Graham McNeill, last I checked. It's painfully fitting that the finale of the big series is sitting right next to another tie-in work by an ex-author, by a company that obviously offers better conditions to their authors than BL does.

[System Sound]

30 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

....I'm honestly more amused of TEATD Vol.3 sitting next to a League of Legends novel by Anthony Reynolds. You know, Word Bearers Anthony? The other Reynolds?

 

Because Riot have been getting a bunch of former BL writers to work for them, some of them full time, like Laurie Goulding and Graham McNeill, last I checked. It's painfully fitting that the finale of the big series is sitting right next to another tie-in work by an ex-author, by a company that obviously offers better conditions to their authors than BL does.

TIL LoL has novels now.

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I've read each book. Yes, there are some knee jerk reactions and yes, we have some laughs.

 

I cannot think of one take so far, that was wildly wrong when it comes to these overly bloated books.

 

So yeah, I want the spoilers, so I know how annoyed I will be when I fork out my 50 bucks.

 

No new school of thought has formed to date, because these books are a poorly edited dump of text.

 

Personally, I simply want to know whether it's worth rushing through my current reading pile to be ready for Vol.III on release day, or if I'm just fine putting it off until some other time. Again, this book has already taken around 40 hours of my time. Volume 3 will bump it up to War and Peace or Stormlight Archive levels of runtimes. I could get through at least two other novels at my own pace instead, and chances are, I'd probably have a more enjoyable time with those at this point.

 

So far, TEATD has proven to be the most frustrating novel I've read in years - because the sparks of brilliance are constantly getting drowned by irrelevancies better served by being in an anthology or novella, if at all written. Every scene that draws me in is seemingly balanced out by one that turns me off and makes me want to put the thing away. I want to know if Vol.III will continue on like that, or if it actually gets to the point, and where it ends, and if there even IS an actual resolution to the Abnett-plotlines in here or if I'll have to wait for Pandaemonium first, if even then.

I want to know if there's a point to the drudgery Dan has been putting my attention through, and if it manages to stick the landing - which, frankly, I'm even more unsure now than I have been with just Vol.I.

 

If the book doesn't look like something I'll end up enjoying enough to warrant another 15 hour investment, I'd rather get the advance notice out of the way and spend my time reading something else. Heck, I got 6 High Republic Phase II novels to plough through and Ed McDonald's second Redwinter novel apparently dropped recently - and I've not even read the first yet. I'm not lacking for stuff I want to read - what I will lack til my dying day will ever be time to actually get through all the things I want to.

[timmeh1]

It was 500 pages.  Volume 1 and 2 felt like one book split up and padded out.  Volume 3 felt like a proper book.  

 

The Emperor and Horus meet about 100 pages in, and the deathblow isn't delivered until 400 pages in.  The Emperor takes so much damage....  There's way more to their fight than what I'm describing here, but it'll take a while to write out.

 

Main spoilers:

 

We get a chapter with Perturabo seething in his room about the siege, justifying his retreat, and I think it was hinting at him taking the path to daemonhood.

 

We get a chapter with Lorgar in exile on the other side of the galaxy, living on a low-tech world obsessed with divination.  You might need a dictionary for this one.  Lorgar is mostly

trying to divine what's happening in the siege.  Chapter is pretty wholesome until it ends on a nice subtle dark note that you expect with Word Bearers.

 

RG's fleet is desperately trying to locate Terra or make contact with any loyalists.

 

Oll realizes the broken athame in his pocket was fixed when the Emperor mended Grammaticus and him.  He realizes he has to go back to the Emperor as he'll need the Athame.

 

The Emperor wipes out an entire company of Word Bearers with one psychic blast on the route to Horus.  Really shows his power level. Also Horus' power level, given how he treats the Emperor in their fight.

 

The Emperor has cast off all emotion, and shows none when he sees Sanguinius' body nailed to the wall.  He just says +Take him Down+.  Enter Horus.

 

When Horus and the Emperor face off, the Emperor only says +You have Killed My Son+ and +Why?+.  Horus tries to respond, saying he offered Sanguinius a place at his side, but realizes the Emperor isn't talking to him.  He's talking about Horus to the chaos gods watching the conflict from the shadows behind him.  The Chaos gods are there watching the fight the entire time, but the don't have any lines.  They're just enjoying the show (until they aren't)

 

SIgismund, Keeler, and her refugees make their way to the hollow mountain where the Dark Angels are working on the astronomicon.  She leads her followers in prayer, which helps the DA librarians with their work.  The Emperor must live.  The Emperor is mankind, and mankind is the emperor.  They end up restarting the astronomicon, and Battlefleet Solar, and RGs battlefleet fire up and make for Terra.  The fight off Typhus here too.

 

Oll and John cut open a portal back to the Emperor, who is badly wounded and unconscious on the ground at this point after Horus' onslaught. They show up right in front of Horus.  Terrified, John speaks a word of enuncia that blasts Horus back, and then Oll send John away to complete the red ribbon tying task.  Oll puts the Athame in the Emperor's hand and pleads for him to wake up.  Horus starts making his way over, so Oll puts his lasrifle on full-auto, and fires on Horus until he's obliterated by a talon swipe.  

 

Loken convinces Horus he's won, and that he doens't need the power of chaos anymore, and should show that he can give it up and isn't enslaved to it.  He does so, and this is the Emperor's chance.  The Emperor is empowered by prayers, and Horus is tormented by whispers of "the Emperor must live".  He frantically tries to gather back the chaos power he gave up, and they begin the final phase of their battle.  Still somewhat clear of mind, Horus realizes he's just an instrument of chaos, and silently pleads with his father for mercy, to end him now if possible, before chaos fully powers him up again and he's lost.  The emperor says +I wait for you and I forgive you+.  He stabs Horus in the heart with the athame, killing him.

 

The Emperor drops at this point, all his energy spent, and Valdor and Dorn finally arrive to find Loken kneeling over him.  Blood Angels show up too, and they call for a teleport to bring everyone back to Terra.  Dorn also recovers Ferrus Manus' skull from the VS.  LE-2 finds a tarot card of "The throne" beside the Emperor, so that's where they'll take him.  Just as the teleport is about to start, Loken says he's staying behind to hold vigil over his father's corpse.

 

Later, Abaddon and two other SoHs arrive.  The others want to kill Loken, but Abaddon stops them.  Loken pleads for him to surrender and ask for mercy, and says he'll speak to Dorn on their behalf, but Abaddon is taking the VS and going his own way to be his own boss.  It seems like Loken and Abaddon will part peacefully, when we possibly the worst Erebus moment ever, as he shows up out of nowhere and stabs Loken in the back, killing him.  Abaddon is not pleased, but refrains from killing Erebus, who then goes on to explain that Daemons aren't born, they are created by horrible things like this, and Loken's murder is what creates Samus, completing the cycle.

 

From Malcador's persepective, we see Dorn and the Custodes bring the Emperor to the throne.  Malcador says  it will sustain the Emperor, and he will sustain it, but he'll be stuck between life and death forever, in agony, and it's probably better Dorn and the others don't know that.  

 

We get a scene of Grammaticus far in humanities past, tying a red ribbon, and using one of Sanguinius' feathers in place of an athame to open his portals.



It ends with Keeler holding up her arms in praise of her Emperor.

Fo built his bio-weapon, and it's stored away for future plot points.

Ahriman helped explain Tarot cards in the library

 

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Look, so long as this doesn’t have microchapters of “and then these characters you’ve never heard of see a door, one tells the other that there indeed should not be a door there, the second replies that that’s because this is the end and the death you see, and the first replies with ‘ah, yes, for the clock’s run out’. The end.” Then I’m happy. 
When Dan wasn’t padding the book with that, it was pretty awesome.

 

I’ll remain somewhat hopeful. 

[Scribe]

Appreciate the spoilers, my blood pressure thanks you.

[StrangerOrders]

The spoilers are appreciated.

 

They also make me feel somewhat dead inside.

 

Its odd, not angry or even really disappointed. Its fine even.

 

Just... huh.

[lansalt]

4 hours ago, timmeh1 said:

*Snip*

Thanks for the spoilers! It sounds like a mixed bag, though. I'm specifically annoyed by...

Spoiler

...Sanguinius' body nailed to the wall when the Emperor faces Horus. Abnett carelessly invalidates 4 decades of classic dioramas and illustrations with Sanguinius dramatically laying on the floor for cheap shock value >:(

The classic fluff about Imperial Fist huscarls in Indomitus terminator armour being part of the fight, and that becoming the origin of the stone crux terminatus they all wear in 40k is also a false myth, then. I guess Abnett couldn't find the time for them even with all the filler in this.

 

[Rob P]

Intentionally avoiding spoilers now ...

 

Lots of chat hear about pessimism and Warhammer novels.

 

I'm so invested in Warhammer as a setting that I can appreciate what is good for a Warhammer novel and what is bad for a Warhammer novel. Of course, this is largely subjective. I've mentioned before about attending a BLL (which must have been before Scars was released - to position it at some point in time) where Nick Kyme called Warhammer novels 'pulp'. Back then I was a bit offended because I felt it was a flippant description of something I really enjoyed and it felt like it described throwaway low effort fiction. It's not like I thought it was literature but I thought it was solid genre fiction.

 

Now I'm an Abnett fan who thinks TEATD aren't great. He's by a mile the best writer they've had and perhaps that is because of a highly successful background and all the things he's learnt along the way. Everyone has their favourite authors and their least favourite. Usually with the latter being not liked because of either their writing style or their grasp of the setting. I've no doubt that the vast majority of the authors love the setting. I do doubt that the editors seek what makes a good book and that they instead seek things that fit into their framework of what a Warhammer book must have (e.g. must have battles and must be PG - stuff said at many BLL events). It's high speculation but I can see how Abnett has the gravitas and trust to be given loose reigns and this has paid off in many books (e.g. Know No Fear's framing and Legion's plot points).

 

The more I read the more I'm convinced that the novels are pulp. This isn't without evidence, Josh Reynolds spoke about being give a premise then told yo go write. The first handful of HH novels were another level compared to what 40k had. They felt deeper and more nuanced but 50 books later, it's a mixed bag. I suspect in the tie in fiction arena that Black Library are ranked high but in any other area of genre fiction they just aren't top tier. Personally, I think it's editorial constraint.

 

We then have the SoT which conceptually was set up to fail. It was supposed to be an entry point and a sprint to the finish line. It couldn't achieve either and became bloated with new storylines and side characters to try and justify an arc.

 

That being said, I've not not enjoyed it. Other than Saturnine, which was excellent, I've enjoyed bits out of all of the SoT series. Of TEATD, I don't know what's the true answer for the trilogy. Cash grab, no editorial control, or the story they wanted to tell?

 

Anyway, here we are at the end (trying to avoid spoilers). My general thought is I've enjoyed more than I haven't and there have only been a few stinkers. The frustration with the final trilogy arises from anticipation of a climax that keeps edging away. Stop doing 'end and the death' meta stuff and do the final killy bit please. And now, presumably, we have it.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Thank you for spoiling us 

 

Two things are a bit unclear?

Spoiler

1. Is Oll really dead?

 

2. Does the novel go into what happens in the field after Horus' death?

 

Thanks again.

Edited January 21 by EverythingIsGreat
following frater's remarks

[Rob P]

Thanks for the untagged unspoilers, really considerate

43 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

Thank you for spoiling us 

 

Two things are a bit unclear?

 

...

 

Thanks again.

 

Edited January 21 by Rob P

[EverythingIsGreat]

1 hour ago, Rob P said:

Thanks for the untagged unspoilers, really considerate

 

 

Apologies, I did not think they warranted a tag.

 

Spoiler

Oll is a perpetual and asking whether he really died this time is a bit anticlimactic. As for Horus, was the fact that he died a revelation? I will hide my questions anyway.

 

Edited January 21 by EverythingIsGreat
well, duh