The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[TheArtilleryman]

A word on bloat.

 

Fantasy and sci-fi novels are usually much longer than regular books. If you look at some publisher websites it is clear that this is an industry standard - if you are submitting a manuscript for a typical “supermarket fiction” book you are looking at around 80k words. Sci-fi and fantasy manuscripts can be well upwards of 100k and publishers expect this.
 

I think this is probably because your typical reader wants something they can pick up and get hooked into quickly and easily; something relaxing that doesn’t work the brain too hard, because it is entertainment after all. Sci-fi and fantasy readers tend to be much more heavily invested in a setting and want to hear every little detail. They are prepared to accept much lengthier and more elaborate descriptions than would be seen in a standard mass market paperback. They don’t want a book to end; they want more. This is why we are able to have a HH series that runs into dozens of volumes. 
 

I haven’t read this particular book or any of the Siege novels, but it’s fair to say that most novels in this genre are full of bloat - it’s just one convention of the long-established writing style. I mean, look at The Lord of the Rings as an obvious example.

[DukeLeto69]

58 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

A word on bloat.

 

Fantasy and sci-fi novels are usually much longer than regular books. If you look at some publisher websites it is clear that this is an industry standard - if you are submitting a manuscript for a typical “supermarket fiction” book you are looking at around 80k words. Sci-fi and fantasy manuscripts can be well upwards of 100k and publishers expect this.
 

I think this is probably because your typical reader wants something they can pick up and get hooked into quickly and easily; something relaxing that doesn’t work the brain too hard, because it is entertainment after all. Sci-fi and fantasy readers tend to be much more heavily invested in a setting and want to hear every little detail. They are prepared to accept much lengthier and more elaborate descriptions than would be seen in a standard mass market paperback. They don’t want a book to end; they want more. This is why we are able to have a HH series that runs into dozens of volumes. 
 

I haven’t read this particular book or any of the Siege novels, but it’s fair to say that most novels in this genre are full of bloat - it’s just one convention of the long-established writing style. I mean, look at The Lord of the Rings as an obvious example.

To qualify what I am about to say...I believe Abnett is the best writer in the BL stable (actually Fehervari but he is an outlier) and I have always really enjoyed his work and for my taste most of the GG series and all the Inquisitor series are the best books BL have published (I am actually not that interested in Space Marines).

 

tEatD is full of bloat. That is not the same as very large word counts. I agree that large word counts are common place in SFF (often due to world building requirements and precedent set by the known masterpieces.)

 

In this case the bloat is caused, IMO, by including plotlines that are simply not necessary. In fact, never thought I would say this about an Abnett work, some are quite boring and I started skipping or speed reading.

 

I think it is inarguable that there is an amazing novel contained within the three volumes of tEatD but it really needed to be edited down and more focused. Some of the chapters and plotlines are excellent. But...bloat!

 

It is actually a shame but in a meta way this final bit of bloat is symptomatic of the Horus Heresy series as a whole. So probably quite fitting!

 

I am just going to enjoy the bits I enjoy and that is that! 

Edited January 22, 2024 by DukeLeto69

[Sabadin]

On the topic of bloat, most of us are likely familiar with the whole "sci-fi bloat" described earlier. But a lot of us have also been around to know the difference between bloat to add details ala Know No Fear, and "Corporate needs to you pad this out to 3 books to sell more Limited Editions to balance their spreadsheets"

 

 

That being said, so far book 3 is reading much closer to form, it does seem like book 2 got the lion's share of padding out.

Edited January 22, 2024 by Sabadin

[neOh (AV)]

LE is going back on sale at 16:00 GMT on Wednesday the 24th of January.

Hopefully with no another scalper attack.

[The Imperial Fist]

Anyone who has grabbed an earlier copy able to put pics up of the Dramatis Personae? 

[DukeLeto69]

5 hours ago, Sabadin said:

On the topic of bloat, most of us are likely familiar with the whole "sci-fi bloat" described earlier. But a lot of us have also been around to know the difference between bloat to add details ala Know No Fear, and "Corporate needs to you pad this out to 3 books to sell more Limited Editions to balance their spreadsheets"

 

 

That being said, so far book 3 is reading much closer to form, it does seem like book 2 got the lion's share of padding out.

Just convinces me that Abnett followed a classic three act structure where Act 1 & 3 are almost always shorter than Act 2.

 

Waiting on my Vol 3 copy but one further thought on Vol 2:

 

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?

[EverythingIsGreat]

17 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Spoiler

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?

 

 

Spoiler

Likely not, the way TEATD ends. Oll has to have the chat with DK in order for the broken Athame (and himself + remaining companions) to become whole, so that Horus can be killed.

 

And the DK did not go anywhere. It is still a plot device for 30K and 40K, to be activated as needed.

 

[Scribe]

@DukeLeto69 yes I think so, but will have to see how V3 feels.

 

At that point however, V2 would have literally done nothing but see Sanguinius drop, so who knows.

[cheywood]

42 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Just convinces me that Abnett followed a classic three act structure where Act 1 & 3 are almost always shorter than Act 2.

 

Waiting on my Vol 3 copy but one further thought on Vol 2:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?
 

 

 

Volume 2 is technically shorter than volume 1 though, it just looks longer because it has shorter chapters. I think Abnett wrote it as one book then went back and picked the best places to cut, presumably editing things a bit to make it work.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, The Imperial Fist said:

Anyone who has grabbed an earlier copy able to put pics up of the Dramatis Personae? 

 

The extract on fnac has the Dramatis Personae included:

https://www.fnac.com/livre-numerique/a19279565/Dan-Abnett-The-End-And-The-Death-Volume-III#FORMAT=ebook (ePub)

(right button below the cover)

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

  Hide contents

Likely not, the way TEATD ends. Oll has to have the chat with DK in order for the broken Athame (and himself + remaining companions) to become whole, so that Horus can be killed.

 

And the DK did not go anywhere. It is still a plot device for 30K and 40K, to be activated as needed.

 

But there is no reason why that could not have been held over until Vol3?

[EverythingIsGreat]

52 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

But there is no reason why that could not have been held over until Vol3?

 

I recommend rereading the relevant chapters in part 2, and onwards.

 

Spoiler

Practically everything that happens after the Oll/DK interaction refers back to it. Without the DK "abdicating" the story does not move forward. It (the shock of dropping the DK and the included Last Call of the Emperor) affects all the characters, and every coincident and subsequent action (as also Erebus explains to Abaddon). I guess the last 300 pages or so could have been the first part of TEATD/3. Would it have been better that way? Maybe it will be clearer after you read it all.

 

Edited January 22, 2024 by EverythingIsGreat

[DukeLeto69]

8 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

I recommend rereading the relevant chapters in part 2, and onwards.

 

  Hide contents

Practically everything that happens after the Oll/DK interaction refers back to it. Without the DK "abdicating" the story does not move forward. It (the shock of dropping the DK and the included Last Call of the Emperor) affects all the characters, and every coincident and subsequent action (as also Erebus explains to Abaddon). I guess the last 300 pages or so could have been the first part of TEATD/3. Would it have been better that way? Maybe it will be clearer after you read it all.

 

I read it just last week. For dramatic tension purposes I would have held over the post TDK decision scenes that you refer to for Vol3. Leave the resolution and impact as unknown leaving us guessing and just focus on the climax being about Sanguinius.

[DarkChaplain]

Can some spoiler person with the book confirm something for me?

 

Spoiler

Lorgar really sat this one out? He's already on Sicarus in exile twiddling his thumbs? Is that really all there is to it?

 

Did Abnett seriously introduce Barthusa Narek in Vol.I just to do entirely nothing with him and his grudge against Lorgar even by the end of Vol.III? Is Narek even mentioned in Vol.III, or is this yet another thing that Dan axed despite all the potential it held?

 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Spoiler

So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

Mirroring innit!

[theSpirea]

Volume I and Volume II are the same length, each is 147K words.

[Rob P]

Avoid FB if dodging spoilers. Some arse is spamming the big spoilers lolz in various large 40k adjacent groups

[lansalt]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:54 PM, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

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So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

 

[Fedor]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:33 AM, DarkChaplain said:

Can some spoiler person with the book confirm something for me?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lorgar really sat this one out? He's already on Sicarus in exile twiddling his thumbs? Is that really all there is to it?

 

Did Abnett seriously introduce Barthusa Narek in Vol.I just to do entirely nothing with him and his grudge against Lorgar even by the end of Vol.III? Is Narek even mentioned in Vol.III, or is this yet another thing that Dan axed despite all the potential it held?

 

 

If he's genuinely forgot about it, no doubt we will see things resolved in the first Siege short story collection or a bonus audio drama.

 

I was trying to think about Erebus' appearances in 40k earlier, but couldn't recall any remotely recent ones; there were a few mentions (and maybe a brief appearance) in the Word Bearers Trilogy if i remember correctly. I wonder if they've decided he's not a big enough presence to avoid the continuity issue of killing him off.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Spoiler

Horus has previously shown an inexplicable need to have Loken's approval. I guess Loken is his Oll.

 

EDIT: sorry this is a response to the original comment of Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla, last referred to by lansalt.

Edited January 24, 2024 by EverythingIsGreat

[EverythingIsGreat]

4 minutes ago, Fedor said:

I was trying to think about Erebus' appearances in 40k earlier, but couldn't recall any remotely recent ones; there were a few mentions (and maybe a brief appearance) in the Word Bearers Trilogy if i remember correctly. I wonder if they've decided he's not a big enough presence to avoid the continuity issue of killing him off.

 

It is a bit weird that he's around in 40K after his grand plans collapsed, it probably has to do with the way his character was handled by HH/SoT. In the end, I suppose it was decided by GW that he stays in the picture. 

Also, the mythological Erebus is the actual son of Chaos. If there's any common surface between the way he's portrayed in Greek mythology and the way he's portrayed in WH30K/40K, the plot armor is immense. He's practically unkillable by anything except the Anathema.

[Scribe]

10 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

It is a bit weird that he's around in 40K after his grand plans collapsed, it probably has to do with the way his character was handled by HH/SoT. In the end, I suppose it was decided by GW that he stays in the picture. 

 

What grand plans collapsed?

 

Chaos won. Its a state of ruin and eternal war.

[EverythingIsGreat]

6 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

What grand plans collapsed?

 

Chaos won. Its a state of ruin and eternal war.

 

Well, this may be a PR "adjustment" because it seems to me the plan was

 

Spoiler

fifth chaos god or humanity consumed (also probably equals fifth chaos god). Game set and match. Instead we have pretty much what was happening for tens of thousands of years before the HH, only now with an Imperium.

 

[SpecialIssue]

1 hour ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

Well, this may be a PR "adjustment" because it seems to me the plan was

 

  Hide contents

fifth chaos god or humanity consumed (also probably equals fifth chaos god). Game set and match. Instead we have pretty much what was happening for tens of thousands of years before the HH, only now with an Imperium.

 

 

Spoiler

I think it's obvious that the Imperium and mankind is a terrible society and dominant species that only perpetuates and amplifies the misery and emotion that feeds the gods (why do you think they went after us as their client species after we demonstrated 200 years of galaxy-wide conquest and xenocide). If anything this was the best option for them; which is why they let go of Horus just a bit so that he could plead for death and egg the Emperor into killing him. They wanted an Imperium in stasis as a rotting carcass from which to gleefully feast from its decay and angst for the next 10,000 years. Their pawns are just pawns in the game - Horus, Abaddon, the legions - they don't care or really want anyone to 'rule' or ascend. They simply crave more emotion to fuel their very substance, nothing more.