The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[EverythingIsGreat]

18 hours ago, timmeh1 said:

Spoiler

Ahriman helped explain Tarot cards in the library

 

 

Spoiler

May I ask for a little more: Which cards? Was the Dark King card one of them?

 

Sorry for the bother and thanks for the info

[wecanhaveallthree]

McNeill is a golden god. I will hear no slander against him, chiefly because the slander revolves around DAE THIS ONE MOMENT. Outcast Dead is a great example of this, and genuinely hilarious. The Crusader Host are some of the best representatives of their Legions, it's a literal honour guard: of course they're performing above and beyond what's typical. A premiere World Eater who's been nursing a grudge - and has a literal pain engine in his head that gives him old school FNP - can probably tear a guy's spine out, yeah, and even if not, it's really freakin' cool is what it is.

 

And, for whatever reason, this and the timeline problem are all that's talked about in a book that features great insight into psykers and astropaths, the population of Terra beyond the Palace, and the detritus of the Emperor's former conquests both in the prison itself and the Lightning Bearer squatting in the shadows. We get a wonderful look into the psychology of the Emperor, his ability to order great injustice and his capacity for simple compassion. We find out he just drops in to play regicide sometimes with the head honcho of the Telepathica. He doesn't rip secrets out of someone's head: he guides them through their trauma and gives them insight into the future, honestly and without artifice. We see the 'rot' setting into the Imperium, the lengths that Dorn is now going to when he used to be so straight and steadfast. We see the courage and ferocity of the Traitor Legions - we're reminded of their virtues, even as their Legions fall to Chaos. McNeill paints this vivid picture, this uncomfortable clash of cultures and mythology, where even events of a century or two ago are being rewritten directly to suit the needs of the modern Imperium. Unification is barely over in real terms, but there's been little to no time to actually create a harmonious world or true understanding. Terra is still divided, literally, culturally, physically, and that fear, that lack of belonging, that unease is writ large in the Heresy itself and its roots. 

 

To draw a direct comparison between Abnett and McNeill, consider Arik Taranis. An Abnett Taranis would be a world-changer, a force in the shadows, a gathering power coming back for revenge. McNeill's Taranis is not. He's an old man who can't save the last of his companions: they and he are quite literally falling apart, rotting away, their power the very source of their instability. They weren't built to last. They are a living condemnation of the Imperium and the Emperor's methods. Taranis will never achieve his dreams, he'll only prolong his lingering death, the suffering of the last Thunder Warriors. But that's the nature of the setting: raging against the dying of the light, no matter the cost, no matter what one has to sacrifice. Taranis does not figure large into the metaplot. He does not occupy a deep well of lore. He exists as a prophecy, a last gasp, a warning. He sure as hell doesn't have eighty chapters talking about the secret weapon he's totally gonna make one of these days, pinky swear.

[Nagashsnee]

On 1/21/2024 at 7:56 AM, timmeh1 said:

It was 500 pages.  Volume 1 and 2 felt like one book split up and padded out.  Volume 3 felt like a proper book.  

 

This gives me hope, all I ever wanted for the finale was a good book. So if this actually feels like a book that's already a good start and leg up on the last two. 

[TheArtilleryman]

A word on bloat.

 

Fantasy and sci-fi novels are usually much longer than regular books. If you look at some publisher websites it is clear that this is an industry standard - if you are submitting a manuscript for a typical “supermarket fiction” book you are looking at around 80k words. Sci-fi and fantasy manuscripts can be well upwards of 100k and publishers expect this.
 

I think this is probably because your typical reader wants something they can pick up and get hooked into quickly and easily; something relaxing that doesn’t work the brain too hard, because it is entertainment after all. Sci-fi and fantasy readers tend to be much more heavily invested in a setting and want to hear every little detail. They are prepared to accept much lengthier and more elaborate descriptions than would be seen in a standard mass market paperback. They don’t want a book to end; they want more. This is why we are able to have a HH series that runs into dozens of volumes. 
 

I haven’t read this particular book or any of the Siege novels, but it’s fair to say that most novels in this genre are full of bloat - it’s just one convention of the long-established writing style. I mean, look at The Lord of the Rings as an obvious example.

[DukeLeto69]

58 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

A word on bloat.

 

Fantasy and sci-fi novels are usually much longer than regular books. If you look at some publisher websites it is clear that this is an industry standard - if you are submitting a manuscript for a typical “supermarket fiction” book you are looking at around 80k words. Sci-fi and fantasy manuscripts can be well upwards of 100k and publishers expect this.
 

I think this is probably because your typical reader wants something they can pick up and get hooked into quickly and easily; something relaxing that doesn’t work the brain too hard, because it is entertainment after all. Sci-fi and fantasy readers tend to be much more heavily invested in a setting and want to hear every little detail. They are prepared to accept much lengthier and more elaborate descriptions than would be seen in a standard mass market paperback. They don’t want a book to end; they want more. This is why we are able to have a HH series that runs into dozens of volumes. 
 

I haven’t read this particular book or any of the Siege novels, but it’s fair to say that most novels in this genre are full of bloat - it’s just one convention of the long-established writing style. I mean, look at The Lord of the Rings as an obvious example.

To qualify what I am about to say...I believe Abnett is the best writer in the BL stable (actually Fehervari but he is an outlier) and I have always really enjoyed his work and for my taste most of the GG series and all the Inquisitor series are the best books BL have published (I am actually not that interested in Space Marines).

 

tEatD is full of bloat. That is not the same as very large word counts. I agree that large word counts are common place in SFF (often due to world building requirements and precedent set by the known masterpieces.)

 

In this case the bloat is caused, IMO, by including plotlines that are simply not necessary. In fact, never thought I would say this about an Abnett work, some are quite boring and I started skipping or speed reading.

 

I think it is inarguable that there is an amazing novel contained within the three volumes of tEatD but it really needed to be edited down and more focused. Some of the chapters and plotlines are excellent. But...bloat!

 

It is actually a shame but in a meta way this final bit of bloat is symptomatic of the Horus Heresy series as a whole. So probably quite fitting!

 

I am just going to enjoy the bits I enjoy and that is that! 

Edited January 22 by DukeLeto69

[Sabadin]

On the topic of bloat, most of us are likely familiar with the whole "sci-fi bloat" described earlier. But a lot of us have also been around to know the difference between bloat to add details ala Know No Fear, and "Corporate needs to you pad this out to 3 books to sell more Limited Editions to balance their spreadsheets"

 

 

That being said, so far book 3 is reading much closer to form, it does seem like book 2 got the lion's share of padding out.

Edited January 22 by Sabadin

[neOh (AV)]

LE is going back on sale at 16:00 GMT on Wednesday the 24th of January.

Hopefully with no another scalper attack.

[The Imperial Fist]

Anyone who has grabbed an earlier copy able to put pics up of the Dramatis Personae? 

[DukeLeto69]

5 hours ago, Sabadin said:

On the topic of bloat, most of us are likely familiar with the whole "sci-fi bloat" described earlier. But a lot of us have also been around to know the difference between bloat to add details ala Know No Fear, and "Corporate needs to you pad this out to 3 books to sell more Limited Editions to balance their spreadsheets"

 

 

That being said, so far book 3 is reading much closer to form, it does seem like book 2 got the lion's share of padding out.

Just convinces me that Abnett followed a classic three act structure where Act 1 & 3 are almost always shorter than Act 2.

 

Waiting on my Vol 3 copy but one further thought on Vol 2:

 

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?

[EverythingIsGreat]

17 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Spoiler

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?

 

 

Spoiler

Likely not, the way TEATD ends. Oll has to have the chat with DK in order for the broken Athame (and himself + remaining companions) to become whole, so that Horus can be killed.

 

And the DK did not go anywhere. It is still a plot device for 30K and 40K, to be activated as needed.

 

[Scribe]

@DukeLeto69 yes I think so, but will have to see how V3 feels.

 

At that point however, V2 would have literally done nothing but see Sanguinius drop, so who knows.

[cheywood]

42 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Just convinces me that Abnett followed a classic three act structure where Act 1 & 3 are almost always shorter than Act 2.

 

Waiting on my Vol 3 copy but one further thought on Vol 2:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Structurally and dramatically wouldn’t have been better if the whole The Dark King thing had been left on a cliffhanger at the end of Vol2?
 

 

 

Volume 2 is technically shorter than volume 1 though, it just looks longer because it has shorter chapters. I think Abnett wrote it as one book then went back and picked the best places to cut, presumably editing things a bit to make it work.

[DarkChaplain]

3 hours ago, The Imperial Fist said:

Anyone who has grabbed an earlier copy able to put pics up of the Dramatis Personae? 

 

The extract on fnac has the Dramatis Personae included:

https://www.fnac.com/livre-numerique/a19279565/Dan-Abnett-The-End-And-The-Death-Volume-III#FORMAT=ebook (ePub)

(right button below the cover)

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

  Hide contents

Likely not, the way TEATD ends. Oll has to have the chat with DK in order for the broken Athame (and himself + remaining companions) to become whole, so that Horus can be killed.

 

And the DK did not go anywhere. It is still a plot device for 30K and 40K, to be activated as needed.

 

But there is no reason why that could not have been held over until Vol3?

[EverythingIsGreat]

52 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

But there is no reason why that could not have been held over until Vol3?

 

I recommend rereading the relevant chapters in part 2, and onwards.

 

Spoiler

Practically everything that happens after the Oll/DK interaction refers back to it. Without the DK "abdicating" the story does not move forward. It (the shock of dropping the DK and the included Last Call of the Emperor) affects all the characters, and every coincident and subsequent action (as also Erebus explains to Abaddon). I guess the last 300 pages or so could have been the first part of TEATD/3. Would it have been better that way? Maybe it will be clearer after you read it all.

 

Edited January 22 by EverythingIsGreat

[DukeLeto69]

8 minutes ago, EverythingIsGreat said:

 

I recommend rereading the relevant chapters in part 2, and onwards.

 

  Hide contents

Practically everything that happens after the Oll/DK interaction refers back to it. Without the DK "abdicating" the story does not move forward. It (the shock of dropping the DK and the included Last Call of the Emperor) affects all the characters, and every coincident and subsequent action (as also Erebus explains to Abaddon). I guess the last 300 pages or so could have been the first part of TEATD/3. Would it have been better that way? Maybe it will be clearer after you read it all.

 

I read it just last week. For dramatic tension purposes I would have held over the post TDK decision scenes that you refer to for Vol3. Leave the resolution and impact as unknown leaving us guessing and just focus on the climax being about Sanguinius.

[DarkChaplain]

Can some spoiler person with the book confirm something for me?

 

Spoiler

Lorgar really sat this one out? He's already on Sicarus in exile twiddling his thumbs? Is that really all there is to it?

 

Did Abnett seriously introduce Barthusa Narek in Vol.I just to do entirely nothing with him and his grudge against Lorgar even by the end of Vol.III? Is Narek even mentioned in Vol.III, or is this yet another thing that Dan axed despite all the potential it held?

 

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

Spoiler

So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

[DukeLeto69]

2 hours ago, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

Mirroring innit!

[theSpirea]

Volume I and Volume II are the same length, each is 147K words.

[Rob P]

Avoid FB if dodging spoilers. Some arse is spamming the big spoilers lolz in various large 40k adjacent groups

[lansalt]

On 1/23/2024 at 5:54 PM, Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla said:

  Hide contents

So in vol.2 Emps gets talked out of godhood by his back-stabbing ex-pal and in vol.3 the same happens with Horus? Sounds a bit repetitive.

 

 

[Fedor]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:33 AM, DarkChaplain said:

Can some spoiler person with the book confirm something for me?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lorgar really sat this one out? He's already on Sicarus in exile twiddling his thumbs? Is that really all there is to it?

 

Did Abnett seriously introduce Barthusa Narek in Vol.I just to do entirely nothing with him and his grudge against Lorgar even by the end of Vol.III? Is Narek even mentioned in Vol.III, or is this yet another thing that Dan axed despite all the potential it held?

 

 

If he's genuinely forgot about it, no doubt we will see things resolved in the first Siege short story collection or a bonus audio drama.

 

I was trying to think about Erebus' appearances in 40k earlier, but couldn't recall any remotely recent ones; there were a few mentions (and maybe a brief appearance) in the Word Bearers Trilogy if i remember correctly. I wonder if they've decided he's not a big enough presence to avoid the continuity issue of killing him off.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Spoiler

Horus has previously shown an inexplicable need to have Loken's approval. I guess Loken is his Oll.

 

EDIT: sorry this is a response to the original comment of Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla, last referred to by lansalt.

Edited January 24 by EverythingIsGreat

[EverythingIsGreat]

4 minutes ago, Fedor said:

I was trying to think about Erebus' appearances in 40k earlier, but couldn't recall any remotely recent ones; there were a few mentions (and maybe a brief appearance) in the Word Bearers Trilogy if i remember correctly. I wonder if they've decided he's not a big enough presence to avoid the continuity issue of killing him off.

 

It is a bit weird that he's around in 40K after his grand plans collapsed, it probably has to do with the way his character was handled by HH/SoT. In the end, I suppose it was decided by GW that he stays in the picture. 

Also, the mythological Erebus is the actual son of Chaos. If there's any common surface between the way he's portrayed in Greek mythology and the way he's portrayed in WH30K/40K, the plot armor is immense. He's practically unkillable by anything except the Anathema.