The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[Marshal Rohr]

Loken may not have been a psyker but I have been waiting for over a decade to know if he was a giraffe. 

[DukeLeto69]

1 hour ago, Taliesin said:

 

Where has it been all but confirmed? I am interested in even seeing the rumors as I have not seen that idea floated before at all, that books have already been written and that that is why GW has been so silent on upcoming books.

 

I mean, it would certainly explain why they have been so silent on upcoming books. But is there any veracity to this idea? You have a link?

Nah the silence on future books is because GW/BL are crap at marketing

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

The intro to scribes review has me shocked and intrigued I want to read more as I was expecting more of a take down of this novel  but have yet to start reading this volume so I'll have to browse it afterwards

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm on page 39

 

Spoiler

I consciously chose to ignore perts dichotomy of hatred vs. his primarch story and French's depiction. It's annoying, but expected, and I'm trying to push past it.

 

So I'm at lorgars section, and he drove to his planet in exile post ullanor....in the Fidelitas Lex. I finished the section to make sure it wasn't a flashback or something, and it's not. I was hoping it was a weird warp thing that'd get revealed later, but a preemptive search function reveals that was the only time the ship is mentioned, and the only time lorgar appears.

 

To maybe explain my frustration, the Lex died in Betrayer. It was a pretty large event, giving us the Cyrene escape sub-plot, being remarked on by a couple of characters (Lotarra, Argel Tal), and changing the battlefield conditions on nuceria as it flooded the city. It crashed into the ocean, in a planet in ultramar. It's as dead and unrecoverable as you can make a space ship, short of driving it into a black hole or the sun. But here it is, abnetted back in with narry an explanation. This is so stupid to read; it's an amateur mistake and takes me right out of the chapter. Why does this kind of thing keep on happening in his novels eatd novels?

 

[Balthamal]

Finished it, loved it. It stuck what it needed to stick (primarily the duel, the Black Rage, Abaddon, Keeler) and I don't have an issue with things being seeded in forthcoming works. Also pleasantly surprised to find that I got 4 of my 6 predictions correct. 

 

Spoiler

Zephon not succumbing to the Black Rage - correct

Sigismund killing Typhus - wrong

Kat surviving and being revealed as Morianna - correct
Kat/Actae being the source of the story of Oll standing before Horus - correct
Fo using a cloned Xanthus to escape Amon - correct

The Emperor being the one to actually using the Anathame on Horus - wrong (thought it would be Loken)

 

The only thing that I was mildly disappointed with was:

 

Spoiler

We didn't get to see much in the way of how Gulliman's armada and the remains of the Legion fleets/Phalanx went to town on everything, nor the aftermath of Gulliman/The Lion/Russ reaching Terra. While I can see the reasoning behind the omission of those scenes, it would have been a fitting capstone to it all imo, while we did get some excellent stuff around Malcador, Sanguinius funeral procession and the closing shot of Keeler embodying the Imperial Creed that is to come, it would have been nice to get that included without having to wait/hope it'll see the light of day elsewhere later down the line.

 

[EverythingIsGreat]

38 minutes ago, Balthamal said:

Spoiler

Kat/Actae being the source of the story of Oll standing before Horus - correct

 

 

Please explain

 

Spoiler

Others have said that Oll did stand before Horus and died for it. Are you saying the recounting is ambiguous? Or did you mean that Moriana was the one who made that story "public" as it were.

 

I haven't read the book but I read all the spoilers and reviews and am now ready to give an authoritative opinion!  (maybe this should be my signature)

[Scribe]

She tells the story to Guardsmen after, and the legend is born.

[MarineRaiderII]

I finished it last night.

 

I liked it, didn't love it but when I read the afterward DA said GW told him early to keep the " mystery" That is probably why I did not love it. I reflected I was at the Naval Academy when I stumbled on Book 5 Legion. After reading all of them over a career/life that amusingly had me reading about war while I participated in many had me reflect on many, many things.

 

Not sure where I go from here after this but I will be interested in how BL proceeds now that the flagship has reached port.

 

Thanks for all the great posts.

[DarkChaplain]

2 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

I'm on page 39

 

  Hide contents

I consciously chose to ignore perts dichotomy of hatred vs. his primarch story and French's depiction. It's annoying, but expected, and I'm trying to push past it.

 

So I'm at lorgars section, and he drove to his planet in exile post ullanor....in the Fidelitas Lex. I finished the section to make sure it wasn't a flashback or something, and it's not. I was hoping it was a weird warp thing that'd get revealed later, but a preemptive search function reveals that was the only time the ship is mentioned, and the only time lorgar appears.

 

To maybe explain my frustration, the Lex died in Betrayer. It was a pretty large event, giving us the Cyrene escape sub-plot, being remarked on by a couple of characters (Lotarra, Argel Tal), and changing the battlefield conditions on nuceria as it flooded the city. It crashed into the ocean, in a planet in ultramar. It's as dead and unrecoverable as you can make a space ship, short of driving it into a black hole or the sun. But here it is, abnetted back in with narry an explanation. This is so stupid to read; it's an amateur mistake and takes me right out of the chapter. Why does this kind of thing keep on happening in his novels eatd novels?

 

 

Spoiler

I knew there was something in the back of my head about the Lex. Thanks.

 

And yeah, I also found Perturabo's views on not wasting resources / lives and instead retreating to be out of tune with previous depictions. Perturabo sent his Legion into the grinder over and over, and showed incredible amounts of stubborness when it came to keeping sieges going.

 

And it turns out that, indeed, Barthusa Narek went exactly nowhere. Abnett brought him up in vol.1, and never did anything further with him. And what the hell is wrong with Lorgar trusting Erebus?! Did we forget that Erebus was sort of exiled by Lorgar after he got thrown to Khârn for killing Argel Tal? In Vulkan Lives, Erebus himself even reflects on having been forsaken by Horus and Lorgar. I don't think he was even mentioned by Lorgar in Slaves to Darkness, either.

 

And here we have Lorgar genuinely thinking he knows what Erebus is up to and trusting him? Dan...

 

  

15 minutes ago, Scribe said:

She tells the story to Guardsmen after, and the legend is born.

 

Spoiler

Which funnily enough makes Dan's own prior addition of Ollie Piers vs Horus who was actually a World Eater but then ended on him going up against Angron pretty pointless. The whole Interrogator arc there was trying to subvert something that in the end the same author did as expected anyway.

 

Edited January 28 by DarkChaplain

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, MarineRaiderII said:

I liked it, didn't love it but when I read the afterward DA said GW told him early to keep the " mystery" That is probably why I did not love it.

 

I did find that pretty odd myself. 

 

Spoiler

The only mystery left that I can see really is, the Emperor, and the hard, first person, or Word of God narrative of his interactions with Chaos. Multiple authors, multiple characters, multiple books, have stated that "He stole fire from the Gods", and several mentions exist that he broke a deal with the Gods.

 

I mean, they have the Black Books, the whole HH, the SoT, and it absolutely will all swing into the Abnettverse, and this is the red line that cannot be crossed? I just dont get it.

 

The only actual Emperor insight is the Dark King section in Volume 2. Its bizarre.

 

@DarkChaplain yes, that part around Oll is weird. I can only assume that someone (and I know who advocated for this) got in his ear and Abnett relented and fixed it in V3.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Page 139 now:

 

Spoiler

I really like the framing of the black rage. At first, I was a little dismissive; we've seen legion freakouts on their primarchs deaths before, and even some traitorous bezerking from the world eaters in Echos, so the rage didn't seem all that special. But as soon as the affected angels started hitting combat, they showed why the rage is so catastrophic. And then we basically got rann in an escape sequence from askaellon, like one of those video game corridor moments where you have to run away or instantly die. Very fitting for the imagery we get of him.

 

The horus scenes remain fantastic as well, especially with horus paralleling his reaction to loken to big E seeing him.

 

I really don't like the abaddon/valdor stuff. First, marines spouting off high gothic tactics sounds corny. Second, it sounds worse when it's the first time the character has done it (probably because it sounds corny). Third, valdor got his ass handed to him by jabronis. The last two things are more of those discordant abnett notes; abaddon has never spoken like that (in 30k or 40k), and valdor is primarch-esque in combat and the least likely to fall for a trap. 

 

The sigismund section was funny when he killed the leader and nothing happened, and he thinks :

"It cannot be confounded by a single loss, no matter how significant. It cannot be killed by a head wound." Tell that to Warhawk, when a single significant loss discombobulated the entire legion lol. Also, when keeler has her Warhawk arc again by doing mass civilian charges at the traitors to pull them down. 

 

Idk, I'm definitely in the nitpick zone. The good stuff is, as always, really good. But the oversights/retreads stick out so badly as a result, and even more when I know people just 10/10 abnetts siege books to the bitter end (and the death).

 

Edited January 28 by SkimaskMohawk

[Moonreaper666]

Laurie Golding was right when he said the duel was going to be different this time around

 

I'm strangely kinda sorta right with a few things

 

Spoiler

Abaddon gets a taste of Chaos power but instead of using it to curbstomp Dorn in my prediction he uses it to kill 3 Custodes and make Valdor his bitch

 

Spoiler

Abaddon the Despoiler, the next in line for 5th Chaos God

 

Valdor is so repulsed by the relevation he let go of his spear

 

Abaddon wants more Chaos power. So do the other SoH

 

Ironically, his traits are more favorable to become a Chaos God than Horus

 

Spoiler

Chaos Gods wanted to win the Heresy as Plan A

 

They hated it when they had to resort to Plan B, 10k of Imperium carnage and misery, but soon enjoy it

 

At least Dan did the right at showing Chaos's greatest strength and weakness

 

Spoiler

Chaos with an Undivided attention would defeat everyone else as they have unlimited power on their side...

 

...however, should their attention waver then :cuss: hits the fan for them

 

That is why Abaddon being the 5th Chaos God of Chaos Undivided is needed for Ultimate Victory

 

One interesting relevation that has reprecussions post-Heresy

 

Spoiler

Samus was created when Erebus killed Loken

 

Since Abaddon is now next in line to be the 5th Chaos God, Samus is implied to become his servant

 

Guess this means that

 

Spoiler

Samus is going to appear post-Heresy to brutally wipe out Abaddon's enemies

 

[DarkChaplain]

I'm on the final chapter before Part X: This Is Where It Will End (about bloody time!), so almost halfway through, and I'm in a similar boat.

 

The book runs smoothly, for the first time in two and a half volumes. Chapters move along. Excursions to sideshows are few and far between, if not entirely absent. Had volumes 1 and 2 been similarly strong in terms of structure and pacing, the entire thing would not only have fitted in one fewer volume at the minimum, but also been a significantly better total work.

 

Abnett may go into justifications, the scale and scope, in the afterword, but frankly, I don't buy it. We didn't need numerous "Keeler walks from A to B" chapters to know she's on a pilgrimage. All that stuff could've been condensed. It didn't matter how often we saw them, or how much subjective time would've passed on their journey, because as we are being told time and again, even now: Time has stopped, time holds no meaning. I'd hazard the guess that three total chapters across vol.1 & 2 for Keeler would've done it, for instance, and it'd have slotted in just fine with what she's up to here. A lot of fragments in Vol.1&2 were like this, too.

 

I'm still not on board with the status Loken has with Horus, as the-one-who-got-away, and it's felt awkward since Vengeful Spirit made it a thing. But it works. The Horus chapters hit, the Emperor's reactions on their encounter, framed through Horus' lens, is strong. The Emperor versus Horus scenes are exciting and about as impactful as I was hoping.

 

Seriously, Dan, why didn't you manage to put a harder focus on the relevant events up until now? I'd even be fine with letting you have those fragmentary scenes from the previous two volumes, just make them a novella or various short stories. Vol.3, so far, really is what the whole thing ought to have been: A tightly plotted, focused narrative that actually plays the hits, even when it goes to some lengths to subvert expectations here and there, and lets you have your cake at the Siege and eat it in M41 too.

 

That I've spent around 7 hours listening to the audiobook today, in two 3.5 hour shifts, when I had to force myself to keep reading the previous to volumes more times than I can count, should speak volumes. Not three volumes, though. And certainly not three volumes a 700 pages. I leave that to the professionals.

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

That I've spent around 7 hours listening to the audiobook today, in two 3.5 hour shifts, when I had to force myself to keep reading the previous to volumes more times than I can count, should speak volumes. Not three volumes, though. And certainly not three volumes a 700 pages. I leave that to the professionals.

 

I read this one in a night and a half, in contrast to the others that took me days and days.

 

Its just that much better a book.

[tgcleric]

41 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

I'm on the final chapter before Part X: This Is Where It Will End (about bloody time!), so almost halfway through, and I'm in a similar boat.

 

The book runs smoothly, for the first time in two and a half volumes. Chapters move along. Excursions to sideshows are few and far between, if not entirely absent. Had volumes 1 and 2 been similarly strong in terms of structure and pacing, the entire thing would not only have fitted in one fewer volume at the minimum, but also been a significantly better total work.

 

Abnett may go into justifications, the scale and scope, in the afterword, but frankly, I don't buy it. We didn't need numerous "Keeler walks from A to B" chapters to know she's on a pilgrimage. All that stuff could've been condensed. It didn't matter how often we saw them, or how much subjective time would've passed on their journey, because as we are being told time and again, even now: Time has stopped, time holds no meaning. I'd hazard the guess that three total chapters across vol.1 & 2 for Keeler would've done it, for instance, and it'd have slotted in just fine with what she's up to here. A lot of fragments in Vol.1&2 were like this, too.

 

I'm still not on board with the status Loken has with Horus, as the-one-who-got-away, and it's felt awkward since Vengeful Spirit made it a thing. But it works. The Horus chapters hit, the Emperor's reactions on their encounter, framed through Horus' lens, is strong. The Emperor versus Horus scenes are exciting and about as impactful as I was hoping.

 

Seriously, Dan, why didn't you manage to put a harder focus on the relevant events up until now? I'd even be fine with letting you have those fragmentary scenes from the previous two volumes, just make them a novella or various short stories. Vol.3, so far, really is what the whole thing ought to have been: A tightly plotted, focused narrative that actually plays the hits, even when it goes to some lengths to subvert expectations here and there, and lets you have your cake at the Siege and eat it in M41 too.

 

That I've spent around 7 hours listening to the audiobook today, in two 3.5 hour shifts, when I had to force myself to keep reading the previous to volumes more times than I can count, should speak volumes. Not three volumes, though. And certainly not three volumes a 700 pages. I leave that to the professionals.

Writing is hard. Period.

 

It's not a science. Good authors write bad books. 

 

Also, as far as I know, no author in history has had to end a 70+ book series written by other authors that is also tied to a in progress IP with multiple stakeholders.

 

I can't even imagine trying to tackle this. Also, the process is part of writing. Considering it took him two years I wouldn't be surprised if the microchapters and tackling all the side stories is how he arrived at the focus of volume 3. Who knows. 

 

But writing is not simply one outlines it, its perfect, and then you write it. Everyone has different processes and even the same author will have different approaches to different materials. 

 

Vol 2 is bloated. But, god, I can't imagine how many people could even begin to tackle this project. Again. It's wild to think. But I really don't think anyone has. I'm just happy with what we got. Only 1/4th of the way through so far. But loving it. Even stronger than Vol 1, and I already thought that was a great book.

 

Just weird to say "I don't buy it."

 

Like is he lying? Is there some template for exactly how to write this sort of thing. 

 

Honestly. I'm astonished as that about half of the SoT books are good. Cause it's not a task I would wish on my worst (writer) enemies. 

Edited January 28 by tgcleric

[Scribe]

26 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

Also, as far as I know, no author in history has had to end a 70+ book series written by other authors that is also tied to a in progress IP with multiple stakeholders.

 

Thats the thing, he didnt write that book, the IP (HH, not 40K) is not 'in progress', and he...flatly did not carry on from what had come before.

 

Volume 3 is a success, because he gets to the point that actually mattered, and it dominates the book.

 

Emperor vs Horus. Nothing else really set the stage here, that he did not control, or create himself within the series, that I can remember.

[FarvegNugan]

Lorgar going in to exile in fidelitas rex is easily explainable. He simply renamed another gloriana class ship fidelitas rex. Its very common practice in real life.

[DarkChaplain]

13 minutes ago, FarvegNugan said:

Lorgar going in to exile in fidelitas rex is easily explainable. He simply renamed another gloriana class ship fidelitas rex. Its very common practice in real life.

 

Except just two chapters before it, Guilliman and co point out how there've only been 20 Gloriana ships ever made - which isn't accurate , because we know of more than that (at least 25), but the point stands. You don't just pop out another Gloriana into being.

 

Lorgar used the Trisagion after the Fidelitas Lex got destroyed. There's no good reason whatsoever to go back from that.

 

Can we explain it with a renamed ship, it being not the Fidelitas Lex but another Fidelitas Lex? Sure. But let's be real, this is another grating oversight

[DukeLeto69]

20 minutes ago, DarkChaplain said:

 

Except just two chapters before it, Guilliman and co point out how there've only been 20 Gloriana ships ever made - which isn't accurate , because we know of more than that (at least 25), but the point stands. You don't just pop out another Gloriana into being.

 

Lorgar used the Trisagion after the Fidelitas Lex got destroyed. There's no good reason whatsoever to go back from that.

 

Can we explain it with a renamed ship, it being not the Fidelitas Lex but another Fidelitas Lex? Sure. But let's be real, this is another grating oversight

Is it the authors fault to name the ship wrongly or the editorial team and IP guardian(s)?  I say the latter not the former as those sort of mistakes are part of why you have editors!

 

Anyway...vol3 is sounding very positive. Can’t wait to read it (and I will forget the spoilers within a week let alone the name of a ship from x books/years ago!)

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, DukeLeto69 said:

Is it the authors fault to name the ship wrongly or the editorial team and IP guardian(s)?

 

Yes.

 

Someone put the words to paper. Its their fault first.

Someone should have reviewed it. We have been saying editorial screwed up since Volume 1. Its their fault second.

 

I dont even care about those sections, I didnt even mention it, because I dont care how many types of *mancy Abnett makes up, or looks up. The Heresy, the Emperor. The fight with Horus.

 

Thats what matters here.

[FarvegNugan]

Unless he was very fond of the ship name. From what we now know of Lorgar and his loyalists in Pariah, the name means a great deal. Fidelitas rex takes on a whole new meaning in that context. Considering lorgar believes his vision to be his ascension as the golden one alongside the one eyed wiseman in blue robes with dusky skin, even still means he believes he us meant to ascend as humanities saviour with the emperor.

 

      As we know in the warp the emperor was seen as a dusky skinned tired old man in a tattered blue shawl.  The emperor gave his eye to the well of eternity. Much like james T kirk, who was very attached to his ship its more then likely he simply renamed Trisogon after being cast out by horus and abandoned by the chaos gods, as Fidelitas rex means loyalty to the king. Its clear hes had a change of heart. His title Minister of chaos absolute he took after he was cast out is telling as well. 

 

    Lorgar considers the warp itself chaos, all warp powers and mysteries. The gods are just a small part of it.  Renaming his ship Fidelitas Rex matches up with what we see lorgars group, which is the smallest portion of the legion, in Pariah. Its unlikely the chaos gods made him a daemon Prince, he likely used Enuncia. 

Edited January 28 by FarvegNugan

[ninja6fett]

Doesn't bother me. It was a mistake. It happens. Should it have been caught? For sure. Oh well. Just mentally change it to the Trisaigon.

 

2 hours ago, DarkChaplain said:

I'm still not on board with the status Loken has with Horus, as the-one-who-got-away, and it's felt awkward since Vengeful Spirit made it a thing. But it works. The Horus chapters hit, the Emperor's reactions on their encounter, framed through Horus' lens, is strong. The Emperor versus Horus scenes are exciting and about as impactful as I was hoping.

 

 

 

The Loken/Horus stuff doesn't bother me either. Almost every Primarch has a favored son. One who they hold just a bit higher than the rest. I don't mind that at all. For Horus it was Loken.

[ArielRSA]

I really enjoyed this and felt it stuck the landing. Much better than the first two and if it was one release I felt would have raised up the first two.

 

i did enjoy how

Spoiler

The Emperors supposedly weak final hand in the tarot fight depicts his ultimate victory

 

also Oll going out like a champ

 

[Marshal Rohr]

57 minutes ago, ninja6fett said:

Doesn't bother me. It was a mistake. It happens. Should it have been caught? For sure. Oh well. Just mentally change it to the Trisaigon.

 

 

The Loken/Horus stuff doesn't bother me either. Almost every Primarch has a favored son. One who they hold just a bit higher than the rest. I don't mind that at all. For Horus it was Loken.

Horus’ favorite son was Sejanus. Really, it’s Abaddon, but it was mentioned multiple times it was Sejanus. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

I think, having finished it now, my greatest annoyance is that this is possibly the least interesting or engaging version of Horus in the series.

 

It's not 'slipping into darkness' Horus pre-Spirit who still saw Chaos as allies of (sometimes) convenience and would still strangle them when they started stroking their evil Van Dykes too hard. It's not 'my ego has totally overcome my good sense' Horus post-Spirit who was now neck-deep in the Kool Aid and sure both of his path and heedless of the corruption required to get there. It's not - in my opinion, the absolute best of them all - Wolfsbane Horus, now aware of how badly he's screwed up but now actively dying from an unhealing wound and unable to stop what he began, having realised that he's unleashed something worse than his perception of the Emperor on the galaxy. It's not Slaves to Darkness Horus (well, it is a little bit) who has effectively made his peace with death: he won't be a slave or a puppet, and prefers death to serving Chaos a moment longer.

 

Hey, remember this bit? Some of my favourite writing in the series, actually.

 

Quote

‘It was the wound, I think,’ said Horus. ‘Russ’ bite. I felt it sink deep. I saw his face as the blow landed. In that moment, just for a moment, everything fell away. I could see, Mal. I could see… everything. I could see so much that blindness is all that it has left me. There is no future for our Legion but shame – no honour to be given, because I burned it in this war. No matter what my father did, no matter what lies He told us, I am the hand of my own fate, and I always have been.’

 

...

 

Quote

‘I have thrown it to the flames, Mal.’ Horus’ face was a mask of pain over a pit of rage. His image blurred as he spoke. ‘There is nothing but ruin left of the dream, and nothing but ashes left of hope. And I have done this. I have wielded the storm and sown the future with corpses. And I can hear them…’ He raised his hand from the wound at his side. It was red. ‘And they are laughing.’

 

It's not Slaves Horus, who is wholly cut away from being 'Lupercal' (a nice symmetry to the Emperor casting off his own compassion, if it had been remembered) - it's not Solar War Horus, who is wholly ignored by the Emperor as he's effectively a clown car for Chaos at that point. It's not ranting, ruined Horus of the later Siege who doesn't look like he'll even make it to the finish line.

 

It's the Abnettian Horus, who was just pretending to be a vessel flooded with the power of Chaos, on the verge of shattering before it could carry the malice of the Pantheon to the Emperor. It's Horus from Rising with a bit of grandeur bolted on. My greatest frustration is the relitigation of developments Horus and the Emperor have both experienced well before this. Horus already gave up the power offered by the Pantheon - he made a choice to stand and defy it (before getting athame'd again). The Emperor already conceded there was no victory, just a stalemate for the possibility of a better choice down the line. This is not the culmination or conclusion of character arcs. It's not an embrace of their themes and personalities. It's Abnett doing things his way, and in doing so, the whole damn thing is cheapened enormously because this has all happened before, better, elsewhere. 

 

I'm just down, man. I think it's a technically better book than the previous two volumes, but the substance isn't markedly improved. It doesn't even really end. It sputters out, with the obvious promise of More To Come - the Scouring, Abnett's other series, and so on.

 

Now, of course, if McNeill slams down a giant tome that effectively twists the whole thing into an absolute pretzel with Horus' Primarch book, I will cry actual tears of joy. Just give us two completely different versions of the final confrontation and tell the fanbase to collectively choose their own adventure, as Echoes did to Fury of Magnus. Let's enter a new age of duelling authors immediately retconning the previous novels. I'M HERE FOR IT. DO IT, MCNEILL. MAKE HORUS GREAT AGAIN.