The End and the Death Part I, II, III, ...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Guys i got some bad news. 

 

I scrolled to the last page of my Epub, which is part of the Ebook licence add-on, and right at the bottom it says "to be continued in volume IV"

[Malkydel]

7 minutes ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Guys i got some bad news. 

 

I scrolled to the last page of my Epub, which is part of the Ebook licence add-on, and right at the bottom it says "to be continued in volume IV"

Weird. Mine says ABADDON WILL RETURN IN: THE REVENGERS: THE END AND THE DEATHENING

[Scribe]

51 minutes ago, MarineRaiderII said:

one of the best stories I read was Master of Mankind and really liked him and the Blood Angel. Call me crazy but MoM and Wolfsbane were my two favorite books in the HH. Sure the first couple were great but those two were just books I re-read. 

 

I'm quite sure, in my entirely objective and unbiased view as an academic, that Master of Mankind will be seen as the singular best book in the HH by researchers in years time. ;)

[DarkChaplain]

1 hour ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

Guys i got some bad news. 

 

I scrolled to the last page of my Epub, which is part of the Ebook licence add-on, and right at the bottom it says "to be continued in volume IV"

 

Please... it's too early to make jokes like these. I haven't even reset my clocks yet!

 

I took sunday off from reading after getting to the midway point. Oddly, the more I kept thinking about it, the more nitpicks and inconsistencies with previous works and characterizations surfaced (some of which were noted on here in the meantime, too, like Horus' arc redialing, or the way Valdor talks).

 

The whole thing with Azkaellon? I'll say that I genuinely liked Azkaellon when the series' authors gave a damn about him, around 30-ish books ago. Or rather, up until Ruinstorm, since he went missing soon after, and Titandeath didn't spend too much time on him.

Azkaellon had an arc, particularly in Imperium Secundus, or relating to the Sanguinor. We saw him with Curze, we saw him broken and battered, and we saw his role as Sanguinius's guard.

 

It's an issue with the Siege entire that Azkaellon got dumped. Even The Lost and the Damned only had him around for a few lines in the entire book. In some capacity, it felt like Zephon took up page real estate that should've been Azkaellon's. And I don't really want to get into ADB not even acknowledging Azkaellon's existence in the fething BLOOD ANGELS Siege novel. Heck, that book even used Zephon as a counterpart to Amit (something ADB himself deliberately did as per the afterword) - when in previous works, the counterpart had always been Azkaellon, to the point of them having short stories split between them to hammer the contrast home, and finding some appreciation for the other end of the spectrum of blood angelry.

 

Zephon sort of replacing him becomes even clearer here, where Azkaellon supposedly had a real good relationship with Rann.

 

Rann and Azkaellon featured in THREE chapters together before this. In this full work of three volumes.

Meanwhile, Rann and Zephon were bouncing around together for FIVE chapters in volume one alone. THEIR relationship had been established by this point. I could buy Rann's actions if it was Zephon - but Azkaellon? Even the chapters of Rann with Azkaellon partially deal with them talking about Zephon, for feth's sake.

 

You know what would've been a good idea? To put Zephon onto the Anabasis assault instead of coming up with yet another Dan Abnett Original of the name Ikasati. Let Zephon, who had been away from his Primarch's side be with him close to the end (heck, Zephon even got "killed" by Abnett once before in this very series). Let Azkaellon deal with Amit the entire way of TEATD. Build up that relationship properly, or cut down the unnecessary Rann & Zephon chapters to not steal the few Rann & Azkaellon chapters' thunder.

 

Man, after I'm through with volume 3, I expect I'll be feeling little beyond relief to have it over with. With most other series, I feel the desire to go further and read more in that world or with those characters.

I'm seriously excited for the next Riyria prequel novels by Michael J. Sullivan, for instance, and that's after 6+4+6+3 books in that setting already; I'm still disappointed that John Gwynne didn't do a third set of books in his Banished Lands series, even though his viking fantasy, book 3 pending, rocks. Brian McClellan or Mark Lawrence needn't have started new settings just yet, Powder Mage & Broken Empire had plenty of depth left to explore - I could go on like this. And I need not even mention Discworld, which I could've enjoyed another 40 books of, had Pratchett not gone to meet DEATH.

 

But for the Horus Heresy? I feel fatigue. I didn't feel this generalized setting fatigue until the Siege. Even with the Siege, I didn't feel it until Mortis, though more accurately I'd even say halfway through Saturnine. I went into the Siege with excitement (even coming off of the atrocious Buried Dagger handling of Mortarion & Typhus and Swallow's failure to tie the book to The Path of Heaven), and while The Solar War had some small issues, it played it up and even made me think that Samus had had his final hour at long last, a box ticked off the checklist. I like what the following books did with the Alpha Legion operatives undermining the defense, with the conscripts, with Katsuhiro, with the Iron Warriors.

 

In the entirety of The End and the Death, Katsuhiro has fewer lines spoken than Rann & Zephon had chapters together in volume one. He has 5 sentences in volume 3, four of which are expanding on the first, to clue in another character. He has no agency in Abnett's finale - he's only ever along for the ride, to shepherd Keeler from A to B. We were given a reasonably strong human point of view character at the start of the Siege, one to relate to, one who was given a great burden of his own a few books back in the form of a baby to bring through the Siege alive.

He is utterly squandered by the end of it. We never see things through his eyes again during the last two books of the series. We don't get an actual payoff for his story, it's lip service namedrops at best.

 

And then you have Abnett speak about making the small things just as important and balancing things out and everything needing to be in this book as-is, when he couldn't even make time for one of the PoV-pillars of the early Siege?

 

This is exactly why I'm fatigued. The pieces were placed on the board, a full chessboard, yet for some reason, we had a book that decided to only play with the red pieces (except the one named Azkaellon, duh) (and that this one big red one that got removed from play in a novella 4 books prior needed to be brought back and rebanished in a different way), followed up by a book that, for nearly as many pages as War and Peace, decided that the pieces it had available weren't good enough, either adding its own to the board or substituting others with its hand-carved versions. And then there was that Garro novella, which.... URGH. I can't even with that one, not least of all because Keeler's part in it FITS NOWHERE, and goes entirely unacknowledged by the books chronologically set afterwards.

 

The fatigue is a direct result of time and space and established rules in this cooperative final endeavor of the series breaking down and many hands not knowing what the others were up to, or deciding to go with their own ideas over preestablished beats anyway. It's the End and the Death of the editorial, of the team effort, of the greater whole of narrative storytelling that fatigues me. Not that these characters overstayed their welcome on principle, or that I read too many pages of a thing, but that the entire final series of eight novels just fell apart in the creative and executive department, giving me whiplash and leaving many, many things that were set up go unconcluded. Abnett himself really outdid himself with making his own invention of Ollie Piers and the origin of the Ollanius myth completely obsolete and irrelevant by the end, but even within TEATD he sets up things that never, ever come to anything.

 

And that's what's destroying my enthusiasm for the Horus Heresy.

 

Edit: By the Dark King, I just wrote a 1200+ word essay when I just wanted to chip in on Azkaellon for a moment. Evidently, I, too, would probably need three volumes to put all my thoughts and feelings on the series to paper.

Edited January 29 by DarkChaplain

[Instar_nine]

The eTdb3 was as noted missing huge amounts of information about other characters and plots

That's what the scouring series is all about 

This book was really just about emp vs horus 

But what's up with John and the thread?  He's back in time 

:cuss: is going on..... 

[Marshal Rohr]

Did the Black Rage always make Blood Angels have super vampire teeth?

[Scribe]

4 minutes ago, Instar_nine said:

Spoiler

But what's up with John and the thread?  He's back in time 

is going on..... 

 

 

Spoiler

When Horus dies, the Warp/Chaos pulls back and reality reasserts itself in the Sol System. All the cool named places, the Spirit, Terra, the Palace? They all go back to where they should be. Meanwhile, the path taken by Oll and friends, still needs to be marked by John, since Oll was turned into a fine mist.

 

This means John, must as discussed earlier with Oll, use the compass, and a sacred Sanguinius Feather, to cut through reality, space, and time, to set the trail, for the rest of his unending life.

 

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Did the Black Rage always make Blood Angels have super vampire teeth?

 

I mean its kind of a meme/trope with Vampires, so sure?

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeh but not like biting through armor!

[tgcleric]

20 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Thats the thing, he didnt write that book, the IP (HH, not 40K) is not 'in progress', and he...flatly did not carry on from what had come before.

 

Volume 3 is a success, because he gets to the point that actually mattered, and it dominates the book.

 

Emperor vs Horus. Nothing else really set the stage here, that he did not control, or create himself within the series, that I can remember.

I'm trying to even understand what you're saying. 

 

You may not like how he did it. But Abnett did write the conclusion to a 70+ novel series written by multiple authors over the course of nearly 2 decades. A series with established lore, and part of an IP that is in progress (HH is still printing new models, merchandise and evolving) with multiple creative shareholders.

 

Like he did it. Even just from a pure curiosity stand point, it's fascinating cause no author has ever had to do it before. It's a daunting task. 

 

I feel bad for folks here who don't like it cause obviously you're here cause you love the world and ip.

 

I came to this 4 years ago. Read everything in that time. I like it. I would say about 15 books in the HH were worth my time. Of those, probably 3 or 4 I think are legitimately solid books. And even of those, none are like gonna match my favorite fantasy/Sci fi series or whatever.

 

But when warhammer is written well it does provide some of the coolest around, and it's unique. So I haven't regretted it. And without exception, if it's been wraight, abd, or abnett it's been at least a airport novel quality fun read. 

 

Half way through Vol 3 now. Abnett still writes some of the best action I've ever read. Probably Pierce Brown with Red Rising only really competes on this front. 

 

I'm finding Vol 3 to be a fun and intense read and far better than what I would have imagined when I started the series begrudgingly expecting it to be a waste of my time with the quality being at best as good as other tie in fiction like Star Wars. Which to me (just to me) dreadful. 

 

And well. It mostly was. But then there are these bright spots. And So far EotD vol 1 and so far vol 3 are two of them.

 

Also. Just adored the first 2nd POV of Horus. They have all been far and away my favorite characterization of horus. 

 

I think I'm of a similar mind though. I can't imagine really reading anymore of this. If I'm being honest, most of the BL stuff I've read outside of HH for fun has been middling. I'll check out what Wraight, ABD and Abnett write. I'm a fan of them as authors. I would read something they wrote outside of the IP.

 

Otherwise. I'll keep my ear to the ground if see if any new bl author is really something special. Otherwise I gotta just clean my palette a bit. 

 

I mean, I've been reading Dahl to my 5 year old and rereading Earthsea cause the new nice editions and yeah... it's nice to just read good prose. 

 

Edited January 29 by tgcleric

[Scribe]

3 minutes ago, tgcleric said:

I'm trying to even understand what you're saying. 

 

The specific part I responded to, is the claim that hes wrapping up a 70+ book series. He didnt do that. There are multiple posts already pointing out the mistakes, the changes, the lost plot lines, the orphaned threads of the "70+ book series".

 

So while I suppose your statement was fair, no author has had to do it, we are still in that world, since he didnt wrap up everything either.

[tgcleric]

42 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

The specific part I responded to, is the claim that hes wrapping up a 70+ book series. He didnt do that. There are multiple posts already pointing out the mistakes, the changes, the lost plot lines, the orphaned threads of the "70+ book series".

 

So while I suppose your statement was fair, no author has had to do it, we are still in that world, since he didnt wrap up everything either.

Making mistakes is not the same as not doing it. He did it. The series is, as far as we know done. He provided an ending. 

 

You ever read a book with loose ends? The book was still finished. 

 

Now, you can argue that still no author has successfully wrapped up a 70+ book series. Sure. I doubt we'll ever see another one try. 

[Scribe]

He did indeed conclude the series.

[wecanhaveallthree]

He concluded a series. As Roomsky correctly and intelligently wrote, it wasn't the Horus Heresy.

[tgcleric]

25 minutes ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

He concluded a series. As Roomsky correctly and intelligently wrote, it wasn't the Horus Heresy.

 

Sure. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

=][=

 

Just a friendly reminder about spoilers...

 

Most here are doing a first-rate job in their restraint and use of the spoiler edit in their posts so this is just to remind our more excitable fraters that not everyone has read this far or even knows how this all ends....

 

Hard to believe I know, but it's true

 

=][=

[TheArtilleryman]

7 hours ago, Malkydel said:

Weird. Mine says ABADDON WILL RETURN IN: THE REVENGERS: THE END AND THE DEATHENING

Really? I heard it said: “To be continued with 50 plus ironic pages of fans complaining about unnecessary bloat”

 

:p

[DukeLeto69]

I think in the End (and the Death) when the (City of) Dust settles we will see that everything to do with the Horus Heresy has been rather masochistically meta. Overlong, overwrought, chaotic, inconsistent, painful (especially for those poor souls trying to get hold of Limited Editions), disorganised, huge, unwieldily, inconsistent (did I already say that)! The in-universe experience of the HH is all that and more. The real world experience of the HH is all that and more. It has been a sometimes fun, sometimes frustrating, sometimes annoying, sometimes exciting, altogether endurance testing experience. But here we are! We are all still here. We are the survivors (anyone experiencing survivors guilt or just relief?)

[TheArtilleryman]

If we view the Horus Heresy series as a history, then inconsistent accounts are somewhat consistent with how real history is recorded.

[Nagashsnee]

3ish Weeks ago I started re reading Gotrek and Felix (audiobook while painting my new old world Dwarf army, old world hypeeeee!), on the day Vol III of the final siege of terra book came out to read I was just starting Dragon Slayer (book 4), I got the end of the death, loaded it up on my e-reader, remembered vol I and ii and the reading experience I had and closed the reader.

 

I buy and read ALLOT of bl, much more then I should. I was even one of the lucky few who got a LE of part III on the first day. But treating this as one big book (as the author wants me to) I am at the put aside to finish 'one day' stage i get to when a book becomes more of a chore then a joy to read. It has sapped any enthusiasm, energy or joy  I had to read the end of the heresy.  

 

All i remember from the first 1400 pages is that time has stopped, the editor had a stroke and continuity doesn't matter much anymore. Also it may be the end and the death i am not sure i don't think it was stated quite enough times for me to be 100% on that.

 

Nothing I have heard/read on here, reddit or IRL from friends who have read the book make me want to pick it up back up with vol iii. In fact the fact that the book is again changing or more likely not caring about minor but important things that are established like logars flagship or how many gloriannas exist, etc and are very very public knowledge in universe makes reading feel like an ever greater chore then joy. Cause I know it will irk me, it will irk me a great deal.  And until it doesn't feel like a obligation to 'just get it over with' rather then a joy I don't think I will read it. 

 

Gotrek and Felix audiobook 1-3 tho, 9/10. 

 

Edited January 29 by Nagashsnee

[EverythingIsGreat]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

Spoiler

This means John, must as discussed earlier with Oll, use the compass, and a sacred Sanguinius Feather, to cut through reality, space, and time, to set the trail, for the rest of his unending life.

 

 

Confused.

 

Spoiler

Is Grammaticus a perpetual again?

 

Also, to repeat a previous question, where's the athame?

 

[Scribe]

@EverythingIsGreat I think the implication is...yes he is, but I dont know when/how/if that was actually mentioned. Maybe via the Dark King 'refresh'?

 

I dont think the blade is mentioned either. I would have to go back and confirm.

[lightinfa]

Finished it last night - I really enjoyed it, far better than two, although I think the first volume has my favorite parts (mainly because you of all the Malcador POV). Admittedly this is a silly sentence to write because novels are not written to be assessed as individual thirds - but that's the inescapable fact of how we've all experienced these books. (and interestingly Abnett admits in the afterword that he delivered the volumes individually to the editors, rather than as one whole manuscript). At some point I think I'm going to have to sit down and read all three in close proximity to get all the themes and continuity into focus. Right now, Saturnine feels like such a stronger effort because it's thematic focus and intellectual ambitions were much sharper.

 

That being said - as Abnett said in the afterword, I really like what he was doing with the importance of emotion:

 

Spoiler

The theme of the importance of necessity of emotion is paid off very nicely in that Horus's emotional core, and his feelings of love, affection, duty, and guilt are ultimately what prevent him from killing the Emperor - providing a nice final answer to the question that was put to the Emperor in the first volume (why give his creations emotions?).

 

[Marshal Rohr]

The Horus POV sections are so painfully repetitive I thought my audio book was broken. 
 

“he tries to fight me. He cannot fight me. He uses power. I am power. He is too weak and I am too strong. I have dark power. Power. Unlimited dark power.”

Edited January 29 by Marshal Rohr

[EverythingIsGreat]

Spoiler

The least attractive parts of WH30K/40K literature for me, are the ones where power-hungry, self-righteous, self-justifying egotists have to be shown as having "pathos" or even "bathos" (I am using a dictionary, ask Dan for one). Because history is full of such examples: Xerxes, Tsenghis Khan, HItler, Stalin, Mao etc. etc. Just like Horus they also had inner doubts, unresolved fraternal issues towards their mortal enemies, and also pulled their punches at the last moment, somehow extracting defeat from victory. Because they were "emotional".

 

Good grief.