New units with codex

[Paladin777]

I just ordered 5 jump packs for my assault marines on sprue. 
 

that said, it looks like they're going like hotcakes. Just letting everyone know. 

[Rhavien]

I am a little bit disappointed, that the only special thing is an extra plasma pistol for the squad. And honestly I also don't get it. They are close combat experts. Why no cc weapon if they care to add something? 

[tajj]

19 hours ago, Rhavien said:

I am a little bit disappointed, that the only special thing is an extra plasma pistol for the squad. And honestly I also don't get it. They are close combat experts. Why no cc weapon if they care to add something? 

 

Yeh it doesn't really fit their 'simplified not simple' mantra they were using before the release of 10th, they are just simple with basically one close combat weapon option. 

 

The other issue is most melee weapons have become worse because the toughness of everything has increased, so the simple chainsword struggles to wound so much. It thus makes them very limited against what they can realistically attack and damage unless you stack a load of character buffs on them.  If you want stuff that kills chaff infantry there are so many other options that are probably more effective and less risky to use, most with better rules.  Like 6 Inceptors are about the same cost as a 10 man assault squad with jump packs, they have a great special rule so they can deep strike into 3" of an enemy unit, and will kill chaff infantry with their 3A, S5, AP -1 D2 assault bolters, that also have sustained hits 2 and re-roll all wounds because they are twin linked. They will kill T4 or T5 infantry way more efficiently than 9 guys with S4 D1 chainswords will that have to charge and be exposed to overwatch etc. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 minutes ago, tajj said:

 

Yeh it doesn't really fit their 'simplified not simple' mantra they were using before the release of 10th, they are just simple with basically one close combat weapon option. 

 

The other issue is most melee weapons have become worse because the toughness of everything has increased, so the simple chainsword struggles to wound so much. It thus makes them very limited against what they can realistically attack and damage unless you stack a load of character buffs on them.  If you want stuff that kills chaff infantry there are so many other options that are probably more effective and less risky to use, most with better rules.  Like 6 Inceptors are about the same cost as a 10 man assault squad with jump packs, they have a great special rule so they can deep strike into 3" of an enemy unit, and will kill chaff infantry with their 3A, S5, AP -1 D2 assault bolters, that also have sustained hits 2 and re-roll all wounds because they are twin linked. They will kill T4 or T5 infantry way more efficiently than 9 guys with S4 D1 chainswords will that have to charge and be exposed to overwatch etc. 

toughness of everything has not gone up.

the toughness of things that needed to be tough has gone up.

 

it makes no sense for even a space marine to be popping leman russes open with a chainsword like it’s nothing.

 

the #1 complaint about 9th was that it was too lethal, now people are complaining their stuff isn’t lethal enough, so every unit is no longer a TAC unit in our codex…

[Karhedron]

The inflexible loadout is disappointing but pretty much expected from Primaris units at this point. It looks like Vanguard Veterans are going away with Bladeguard taking their place as melee elites. If tat is the case then regular Assault squads will be the only option for jump melee units outside of Legends.

[Blindhamster]

It’s also still (mildly) possible they get a rule to allow a second melee weapon on 10 man squads maybe. That would help a bit (also meaning 2 5 man squads isn’t always better).

 

I honestly like the new models the more I’ve looked at them, I’m hoping they’re like the old squad with the option to not put at least some of them on the scenic base bits, but even if they’re not, I’ll mix and match a few things I think.

 

We need to see how their rules pan out though, they may well get an interesting special rule that helps make them more appealing.

 

I do prefer the assault intercessor chainsword designs.

[Paladin777]

If I had to guess I'd say their special rule will probably be the DW on the charge that the current assault squad gets...

[Blindhamster]

44 minutes ago, Paladin777 said:

If I had to guess I'd say their special rule will probably be the DW on the charge that the current assault squad gets...

You could be right, or maybe the chainsword doctrines, suppose it will depend on if assault squads remain in the new codex or not maybe ?

[Paladin777]

You might be right about chainsword doctrines, but as per 'no kit no rules,' I'd bet money that there won't be either an assault marines datasheet, nor jump assault marine datasheet.

[MadGreek]

9 hours ago, Karhedron said:

It looks like Vanguard Veterans are going away with Bladeguard taking their place as melee elites. If tat is the case then regular Assault squads will be the only option for jump melee units outside of Legends.

I hope this isn't the case. I REALLY want more jump packs, and was looking forward to Primaris VangVets to fill that niche. I LIKE Bladeguard, and if they gave them a Jump Pack option I'd be good with that instead.

[Majkhel]

 

 

1 hour ago, MadGreek said:

I hope this isn't the case. I REALLY want more jump packs, and was looking forward to Primaris VangVets to fill that niche. I LIKE Bladeguard, and if they gave them a Jump Pack option I'd be good with that instead.

BUT if Karhedron is right in that Bladeguard are supposed to fill the VanVets niche (in that they are non-Terminator armored 1st Company assault elements), this might actually mean we would be getting jump packs for for them as well at one point 

I sooo wish it !
 

[Paladin777]

I don't think that VV's are going anywhere. All the rest of the veteran units are getting embiggened, and I kinda feel like this is going to be the same. 
 

I could certainly be wrong though. 
 

if I had to guess, I'd say that BGV will be the on-foot variety and VV will become the jump pack style of CC vets. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Paladin777

[tajj]

On 9/4/2023 at 3:34 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

toughness of everything has not gone up.

the toughness of things that needed to be tough has gone up.

 

it makes no sense for even a space marine to be popping leman russes open with a chainsword like it’s nothing.

 

the #1 complaint about 9th was that it was too lethal, now people are complaining their stuff isn’t lethal enough, so every unit is no longer a TAC unit in our codex…

 

Whether it needed to go up or not is a different debate, but it has definitely gone up too far as shown by the armour meta we now have, melee is suffering wholesale and elite melee infantry units who SHOULD be a big threat to armour units simply are not.

 

You get that BAs have a sub 40% win rate in tournaments when using SOS and that is with Gladiator Lancers and Desolation marines propping up most lists, most SM lists that are doing anything are basically different coloured Ultramarine lists with lots and lots of shooting. Other melee armies are also struggling, aside Custodes.  Guard and Marine lists people are playing are like more than 50% armour, people are lining up with like 7-8 tanks and barely any infantry on the board. 

 

You don't need a Leman Russ to be toughness 11 to protect it from chainswords, they are S4, T9 is fine, it is still more than double that so you would be only wounding on 6s and it has a 2+ save, so it would still save the vast majority of wounds that got through anyway and then would have 13 wounds to fall back on.

 

Power fists, Thunder Hammers, Meltas etc. only wounding a Leman Russ on 5s, that is just plainly bad balance.  A bunch of melee infantry with power fists should be popping open a tank like its nothing, because that is your risk reward, armour should be vulnerable to close combat melee because they have the range power and because the melee unit is high risk, high reward, it can get blown off the board before it ever gets into charge range. 

 

Also 10th isn't any less lethal, 10th melee in the main is massively massively less lethal but shooting is even more lethal. Hence Aeldari dominating with wraith knights, D-Cannons, fire prisms etc. 

 

Toughness has gone up way too far, it should have been capped at max 10, with most stuff 8 and 9, you can still make tanks tougher with armour saves and decent amount of wounds rather than making like 80-90% of the weapons in the game obsolete against them. 

[Blindhamster]

I don’t actually mind the super high toughness of vehicles. But I do think some melee weapons should have gone up in strength a little more than they did, I think fists are fine, they’re already considered much better than swords etc anyway. I’d have upped the strength on fists (not hammers), but reduced their attacks.

 

and melta should have been anti armour at short range.

 

it’s overall a good thing that vehicles are tougher, they have been incredibly flimsy for many editions. 
 

and I also think most melee should bounce off tanks. Bring back melta bombs and have a single melee weapon type be dedicated to anti tank (technically there is one - chainfists, but they’re too rare)

[Thoridon]

It's nice to finally get jump pack assault intercessors, but they're unit #1472 equipped with some mix of bolters and/or chainswords. Great if you're up against an infantry swarm, not so much if you need to destroy tanks and monsters.

 

When the Codex arrives I can now see them dropping the old Death Company units to Legends and just allowing us to use any of the 3 Intercessor builds (Intercessor, Assault and Jump Pack) as Death Company by painting them black and putting some red crosses on in return for a 6+ FnP and Black Rage. Again, fantastic for anti-infantry but they'd lack any punch against tough stuff. There's no reason for them to keep the old models in the codex/supplement now they have a jump pack squad available, and they've been moving away from all the weapon options to the old DC units are prime targets for Legends.

 

I think long term it's probably a good call that Bladeguard Vets will be the elite foot melee unit and there might be a new Vanguard Vet unit as the elite jump pack melee unit when the main SM codex lands. Even if that's the case I'd only expect them to get generic "power weapons" across the board, or maybe relic blades the same as our Sanguinary Guard. A nice boost to take on elite infantry but still not enough to go after tanks.

 

It feels like our infantry squads are relegated to anti-infantry roles in 10th (with some elite units being better for killing enemy elite infantry) and anti-vehicle/monster duties need to be performed by long range anti-tank weaponry (or the occasional special character strong enough to make a dent).

[Thoridon]

22 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I don’t actually mind the super high toughness of vehicles. But I do think some melee weapons should have gone up in strength a little more than they did, I think fists are fine, they’re already considered much better than swords etc anyway. I’d have upped the strength on fists (not hammers), but reduced their attacks.

 

and melta should have been anti armour at short range.

 

it’s overall a good thing that vehicles are tougher, they have been incredibly flimsy for many editions. 
 

and I also think most melee should bounce off tanks. Bring back melta bombs and have a single melee weapon type be dedicated to anti tank (technically there is one - chainfists, but they’re too rare)

That's the key thing for me. Before it was probably too easy for multiple melee weapons to damage tanks but at least there was an option. Now with even fists and hammers wounding on 5s it feels like there is no option to build a melee unit to hunt tanks/monsters, it's mostly masses of S4 and then a few things that get a bit more strength and extra point of damage to be effective against tougher elite infantry.

 

As you say, chainfists exist but we can only get those on Terminators and they're not exactly fast. It would be nice if they were an option to give to Vanguard Vets or Death Company (and not just 1 per 5).

 

I feel there should be an option to equip a melee unit with anti-vehicle weapons, accepting the tradeoff that they'd be less effective against infantry as a result - the same way you can build a tank with loads of lascannons or loads of heavy bolters and assault cannons depending on the role you want it to fill. If we can build our tanks as anti-vehicle or anti-infantry specialists why can't we do the same with the elite melee marines in the chapter?

 

Edit: And I should add that I really like how tougher tanks and monsters are now, it just feels like we're missing a melee option to counter them.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Thoridon

[Karhedron]

Infantry can carry lascannons for anti-tank work which get 1 S12 attack doing D6+1 damage from 48" away.

 

Jump melee units get power fists which can do 3 S8 attacks for 2 Damage but you need to get up close to punch stuff. Melee is less effective against vehicles than it was in 9th but I think this was a deliberate change as no one was taking tanks at all. Is it an overcorrection? Yes a power fist is significantly less effective than a lascannon now but it gets 3 times more attacks. Risk, reward and points all play their part.

[Khorneeq]

Chainfists should be an answer to tanks but we get them only on terminators. If Sargeants or Characters could get them it might be good direction. But I think that we would still need some dedicated anti-monster weapons (Sternguard from Kill team type of combi-weapons maybe?)

[Paladin777]

A big problem is that even if fists get 3 attacks a S8, it's still does, on average, a little over half the damage as 1 lascannon shot to a 'light' T9 3+sv vehicle. 
 

not only that, but the number of units that can take more than a single fist on a sergeant are not only incredibly few and far between, but aside from DC they're also very slow. 
 

I agree with the statement that Melee being more powerful than shooting was always balanced out by it being harder to achieve. Now it's harder to achieve, and  les effective. This is a huge problem.

[CCE1981]

T9 vehicles are pretty bad, remember Heavy bolters only need 5’s to wound them, you can get a lot of punch into them.  
 

I think the only fix Melta needs is one you can do with its Universal Rule, add when in half range double this weapons strength.  As I have said before this reflects back several editions where in half range melta rolled 2x armor penetration dice and added both to the strength for armor penetration, while the extra damage reflects the old ap 1 which gave a plus to the damage chart.

 

Melee is a monster to solve, and I don’t like increasing multiples for melee strength.  Though adding a d6 to strength on Critical Hits might help, especially with corresponding damage increases.  Overall, I don’t know.

[Majkhel]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

Infantry can carry lascannons for anti-tank work which get 1 S12 attack doing D6+1 damage from 48" away.

 

Jump melee units get power fists which can do 3 S8 attacks for 2 Damage but you need to get up close to punch stuff. Melee is less effective against vehicles than it was in 9th but I think this was a deliberate change as no one was taking tanks at all. Is it an overcorrection? Yes a power fist is significantly less effective than a lascannon now but it gets 3 times more attacks. Risk, reward and points all play their part.

In a vacuum that's true. But note that jump melee units can take only a single fist in a squad (apart from DC) when shooty infantry can take 4-6 lascanons (Devasators, Centurions)

Edited September 6, 2023 by Majkhel

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, Majkhel said:

In a vacuum that's true. But note that jump melee units can take only a single fist in a squad (apart from DC) when shooty infantry can take 4-6 lascanons (Devasators, Centurions)

 

Agreed, although that is a recent development as VanVets and SangGuard both had that capability in 8th/9th. As usual, GW seems to have over-compensated by boosting toughness while simultaneously restricting access to high Strength melee weapons. This has definitely hit melee harder than shooting.

[Thoridon]

Devastators can also put themselves up to 48" away in cover and potentially attack from turn 1. Melee infantry have to cross the board over multiple turns and avoid being tarpitted/intercepted en route. If you get to charge in turn 3 and then hit like a wet noodle, failing all your attacks needing 5s on the single power fist the squad is allowed to equip on the sergeant, it's all risk and no reward.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Thoridon

[jaxom]

On 9/3/2023 at 2:50 PM, Rhavien said:

I am a little bit disappointed, that the only special thing is an extra plasma pistol for the squad. And honestly I also don't get it. They are close combat experts. Why no cc weapon if they care to add something? 

 

It's probably nostalgia, but I get the warm fuzzies in seeing what I think is an homage to the first plastic assault marine kit. Also, see next comment.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 8:35 PM, Paladin777 said:

You might be right about chainsword doctrines, but as per 'no kit no rules,' I'd bet money that there won't be either an assault marines datasheet, nor jump assault marine datasheet.

 

I'm hoping it's Chainsword Doctrines; it would make sense if the unit is truly restricted to chainswords (other than the Sergeant), and doesn't have any other close combat weapon options.

 

On 9/5/2023 at 2:55 AM, MadGreek said:

I hope this isn't the case. I REALLY want more jump packs, and was looking forward to Primaris VangVets to fill that niche. I LIKE Bladeguard, and if they gave them a Jump Pack option I'd be good with that instead.

 

If they do that, I expect they'd look more like Sword Brethren with Jump Packs rather than their current incarnation. Being able to choose Lance, Sustained, or Lethal Hits for models with 4 attacks would go a long way in replacing having 1 or 2 special weapons. I'm okay with the lack of very high AP because it's something across the entire edition. Plus starting at -1AP with strats to improve it are good enough when really tough targets are going to have a 2+/4++ save, where anything more than -2AP is a waste.

 

4 hours ago, tajj said:

Power fists, Thunder Hammers, Meltas etc. only wounding a Leman Russ on 5s, that is just plainly bad balance.  A bunch of melee infantry with power fists should be popping open a tank like its nothing, because that is your risk reward, armour should be vulnerable to close combat melee because they have the range power and because the melee unit is high risk, high reward, it can get blown off the board before it ever gets into charge range. 

 

Also 10th isn't any less lethal, 10th melee in the main is massively massively less lethal but shooting is even more lethal. Hence Aeldari dominating with wraith knights, D-Cannons, fire prisms etc. 

 

I'm just going to stick to talking about melee, as shooting is a very skewed distribution at the moment. I think you are correct about anti-tank melee (man, I miss meltabombs). Anti-infantry melee is doing fine; and can accomplish a lot through sheer volume and characters providing special rules like Lethal Hits. *Shrug* Not sure if it will get fixed by GW or if we'll just see points go down for units armed with powerfists and thunderhammers.

 

49 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Agreed, although that is a recent development as VanVets and SangGuard both had that capability in 8th/9th. As usual, GW seems to have over-compensated by boosting toughness while simultaneously restricting access to high Strength melee weapons. This has definitely hit melee harder than shooting.

I think it was partly because of tournament play. Top players were able to leverage the mobility of such units in ways that are not always apparently possible to peons like me who don't get in 20 games a week. They would hit like bricks, be hard to kill, and were highly mobile. VanVets are still hard(ish) to kill, and quite mobile, but not brick-hitting. SangGuard... yeah, they could use something like a points drop.