New Codex Astartes Detachments

[Dracos]

On 9/5/2023 at 12:40 PM, jaxom said:

 

@Karhedron,  However, I expect that's not the issue. We're kind of looking at force org charts again: one doesn't have enough slots to take a quantity of models that seem right for army one wants to play (e.g. 24 or more Space Marines on bikes). If I'm being generous, I'd say it's a balance issue, or maybe a game size issue. A 1000 point army of all Marines of Bikes is still doable.

 

I miss Force Organizational Charts. It was an attempt to push toward a more varied army style. 
 

Today I’m looking at an army that has 3 units of Interceptors, 3 units of Jump Pack Intercessors 3 units of Outriders … well you see where this is going.
 

 

[jaxom]

23 hours ago, Dracos said:

I miss Force Organizational Charts. It was an attempt to push toward a more varied army style. 
 

Today I’m looking at an army that has 3 units of Interceptors, 3 units of Jump Pack Intercessors 3 units of Outriders … well you see where this is going.
 

 

I don't think I'm one who normally lays blame for some design features being the result of a particular group of players, but regardless, I have to look at tournaments for this.

 

Force Org elegantly solved a problem in a game where certain units couldn't interact with each other. A unit of Guardsmen with no upgrades can't hurt a Land Raider in pre-8th editions. Force Org meant every army (usually) had to have an array of units; guaranteeing interactions on the board. Special org charts existed and they were either things which still allowed interactions (all bikers, for example) or required opponent permission (all tanks, for example). 8th edition tried to keep force org charts relevant in a world where all units can interact, to subjective degrees of success.   

 

Okay, so it turns out I don't quite have the words to describe what's in my head in a pretty way. I tried. I left the evidence, but it's not quite right so y'all get stream of thought.

 

Like, if I were a game designer, I wouldn't be too stressed out about a unit being too efficient if I knew any army with it would have to include other units and those might be less efficient. Like Rule of 3 stops spamming the most statistically efficient units in the game (kind of, maybe, depends on game size). But if a unit isn't stupidly efficient, then it should be okay to take more than three. Battleline units should be some of the most well-balanced units in the game because they're supposed to be the bread and butter units of that that faction. So if I knew that a unit wasn't stupid in large numbers then yeah, let someone take Outriders as battleline. I dunno, like, I want people to be able to play what they want, but it can be hard when doing so may radically alter how a faction operates.

[Paladin777]

But then they stretched the toughness chart to where attacking the toughest targets with almost all infantry-carried weapons is so inefficient that we're kind of back to where we were before, if a little less severe.

[Karhedron]

8 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

But then they stretched the toughness chart to where attacking the toughest targets with almost all infantry-carried weapons is so inefficient that we're kind of back to where we were before, if a little less severe.

 

Lascannons and equivalents are still decent at tank hunting and can do so from long range. If you want to fight tanks, you need to either specialise your infantry or bring tank destroyers of your own. This means that the only armies with infantry-portable anti-tank weapons can run without vehicle support. Marines, Eldar, Tau, and CSM can get by but I am not sure about armies.

[Sea Creature]

GSC has mining lasers.

[Paladin777]

17 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Lascannons and equivalents are still decent at tank hunting and can do so from long range. If you want to fight tanks, you need to either specialise your infantry or bring tank destroyers of your own. This means that the only armies with infantry-portable anti-tank weapons can run without vehicle support. Marines, Eldar, Tau, and CSM can get by but I am not sure about armies.

It wasn't a complaint, more of an observation. 

[Tacitus]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:13 AM, Karhedron said:

 

Lascannons and equivalents are still decent at tank hunting and can do so from long range. If you want to fight tanks, you need to either specialise your infantry or bring tank destroyers of your own. This means that the only armies with infantry-portable anti-tank weapons can run without vehicle support. Marines, Eldar, Tau, and CSM can get by but I am not sure about armies.

Yeah they kinda boned themselves on this change.  But its just round 1 so we'll see how they improve.  Melta probably should have swapped to Anti Tank, Plasma should be Anti-Monster (and Moster Characters should have a different keyword that gives them the benefit of Monsters without the Anit-Monster weakness).  Grav should have had a totally different Anti-Keyword that you would see on Vehicles and other large/tough/"dense" models - Tanks, Carnifex, Terminators, Gravis, etc.  The keyword system has SO much potential they're just not tapping into. 

[CCE1981]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/09/21/codex-space-marines-the-new-detachments-arent-just-for-the-first-founding-chapters/

 

Two more Detachments just dropped.

 

Stormlance Task Force

   Detachment Rule - Lightning Assault looks ok, though not sure how good it is considering that melee isn't that good right now. 

   Stratagem - Wind-Swift Evasion - better version of Squad Tactics

 

Vanguard Spearhead

   Detachment Rule - Shadow Masters - Stealth and Cover - ok I guess

   Stratagem - Strike From the Shadows - This is pretty nice improved Ballistic Skill and AP if your target is  >12" away AND it is a Battle Tactic so getting 2x of these a turn will be very nice, there isn't much that won't appreciate this buff.

[redmapa]

Stormlance sounds great for a Black Tide list, just 120 Crusader Squads all Scout moving, then advancing and charging with a reroll, then supported by whatever and some FNPs thrown in for good measure. 

 

These two look way more fun than the ones they showed last. 

[Sir Clausel]

1 hour ago, redmapa said:

Stormlance sounds great for a Black Tide list, just 120 Crusader Squads all Scout moving, then advancing and charging with a reroll, then supported by whatever and some FNPs thrown in for good measure. 

 

These two look way more fun than the ones they showed last. 

Absolutely terrifying and hilarious at the same time!

[Paladin777]

I'll probably run this with my Blood Angels until their codex comes out. Advance/fallback and charge Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, and Vanguard Vets? Yes please!

 

Gives squads led by Dante a hilariously long threat range!

Edited September 21, 2023 by Paladin777