DG Buffs

[L30n1d4s]

Well, looks like Nurgle is back on the table, boys!

[DemonGSides]

Our iconic battle-line unit still needs some love in the form of either a power boost in weapons, or a resiliency boost from a FNP or something, but I am happy with the points adjustments.  Much easier to bring a fully mechanized force to bear, which is good, but does mean I need to finally secure tht third PBC.  And do I, potentially with reckless abandon, purchase 6 more MBH?  Seems excessive, but they were pretty ok prior to points drop and are now extremely cheap.  Maybe 6 is the right number and not 9?

Mortarion getting a little slimmer is nice as well, tho his damage is still meh.  Maybe with the new contagion stuff it'll bring him up; I do think the contagion changes are nice, but we really need some resiliency to make us feel like we used to.

Also, 60 zombies for 300 points.  Seems like a no brainer, kinda crazy to me that Poxwalkers aren't battleline, but then I think about 120 zombies for 600 points and I think I understand the decision process a little more lol.

[tychobi]

After 1 game I gotta say this may not have been the change we wanted but wow do we get a lot of stuff.  Drones with blight launchers MVP!

[Tokugawa]

Huge boost, maybe won't sent DG to high tier but at least comparable with other power armour factions.

[KingYertle]

My most recent 1500 point list dropped 220 points!!! 

 

Our datasheets still need to be reworked, but the added Contagion Buff is Great.  Will be difficult to choice between -1WS/BS to enhance our toughness or the -1 to enemy Saves.  In my experience, I've struggled to kill things and -1 to saves + Ferric Blight for essentially a net +2 AP/+3 on Crit is a tasty, takes Bubonic Weapons to AP-4!

 

The Nurgle Bong is still too pricy (I cant believe the points didnt move) but might be interesting now to help spread that Contagion Debuff around the table.

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, KingYertle said:

My most recent 1500 point list dropped 220 points!!! 

 

Our datasheets still need to be reworked, but the added Contagion Buff is Great.  Will be difficult to choice between -1WS/BS to enhance our toughness or the -1 to enemy Saves.  In my experience, I've struggled to kill things and -1 to saves + Ferric Blight for essentially a net +2 AP/+3 on Crit is a tasty, takes Bubonic Weapons to AP-4!

 

The Nurgle Bong is still too pricy (I cant believe the points didnt move) but might be interesting now to help spread that Contagion Debuff around the table.

Well, the good news is that since you choose per-game, you can react.  Playing against Deldar?  Best option is almost assuredly the WS and BS since they already have paper armor.

Marines and other hardy lads, especially with their full re-rolls, definitely get more mileage out of worst armor save.

Etc, etc...

I was able to update my first 2K list of 10th (removing a helbrute, defiler, and demon prince + swapping a blightlords squad for a deathshroud squad since they'll have a taxi now) to having an additional 5 man PM squad, 40 total poxwalkers, typhus, three haulers, and a land raider. So, I'll see how it goes.  I would still absolutely  have preferred to get a FNP5+ instead of massive points drops, but we'll all see how we fare now.

I even had 60pts to spare so I threw in a Noxious blightbringer and "The Droning" to see if I could get any fun out of that since I was already full up on units I own that are 60 or under, and not already in the list. (Other than cultists)

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, Dark Legionnare said:

I would still absolutely have preferred to get a FNP5+ instead of massive points drops

 

You and every other DG player frater! Plague Marines are now the same cost as tactical marines and less than intercessors. It's a good band-aid, but not a good faction strategy in the long run.

 

I was hoping for 5+++ as the faction ability and the contagion as the detatchment bonus originally, so I can switch out the contagion later. -1T in a small aura does not bode well for the slowest army in the game in edition of increased toughness and DG getting even slower. I don't think that will happen this edition unfortunately. But who knows.

[Dark Legionnare]

21 minutes ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

You and every other DG player frater! Plague Marines are now the same cost as tactical marines and less than intercessors. It's a good band-aid, but not a good faction strategy in the long run.

 

I was hoping for 5+++ as the faction ability and the contagion as the detatchment bonus originally, so I can switch out the contagion later. -1T in a small aura does not bode well for the slowest army in the game in edition of increased toughness and DG getting even slower. I don't think that will happen this edition unfortunately. But who knows.

Aye.

As for slowness, that's my whole thinking with the haulers. Now that they and bloat drones are not overpriced, using them as "their role" but also getting them up the board with their speed to be those contagion sources. 

I originally had bloat drones because it's been a hot minute since I whipped out the ol' 8th ed starter boys but then I remembered that unless you're playing with good amounts of short(heightwise) but wide wide terrain then fly is ostensibly worthless compared to normal ol' movement with 10th ed movement rules.

Where, coincidentally, haulers and bloat drones are the same price, have the same movement and defensive profile; the change of weapons, abilities, and 1 having fly is their only difference now. So, might as well bring some more AT instead of twin-spitters with fly being as "usually detrimental" as it has for me.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 minute ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Aye.

As for slowness, that's my whole thinking with the haulers. Now that they and bloat drones are not overpriced, using them as "their role" but also getting them up the board with their speed to be those contagion sources. 

I originally had bloat drones because it's been a hot minute since I whipped out the ol' 8th ed starter boys but then I remembered that unless you're playing with good amounts of short(heightwise) but wide wide terrain then fly is ostensibly worthless compared to normal ol' movement with 10th ed movement rules. Where conveniently, haulers and bloat drones have the same movement.

 

Oh I often brought three haulers. Love the models. Decent rules. In 8th edition I ran 3 up the middle and would cast miasma on them and park a character with the 4++ relic by them. They were always hard to shift.

 

I used daemon engines in every list. Love all 3 of the unique DG ones. They might not always have the best rules, but they are sweet looking models.

 

My issues with 10th are unfortunately 3 fold. DG obviously got hosed rules wise, that hurt. The whole set unit sizes and free wargear (power level) also ruins it for me. List building was fun. Now it's not. And lastly my whole group quit again. We all quit in 7th and came back in 8th, and most of them quit at the end of 9th with all the bonker rules and free wargear. 10th was the last straw for the rest and no one plays now. I stay on the forums because I want to stay in the loop and want the game to be good. I still root for GW no matter how many times they shoot themselves in the foot haha.

[Iron Sage]

Silly twats are not even trying to  balance things. First an army rule that is so weak that the faction barely is playable then a retcon where it just becomes probably too strong.

 

Sure, I wanted this, but when this new army rule (two of which are SUPER good) is combined with the very significant (and mostly needed) points decrease, I think this is maybe actually too strong. 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Iron Sage

[Iron Sage]

2 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

Well, the good news is that since you choose per-game, you can react.  Playing against Deldar?  Best option is almost assuredly the WS and BS since they already have paper armor.

Yes, it is a hard counter to some armies, like assault armies (where this rule becomes problematiic and particularly if you also run Typhus etc.), and imo too strong and not well thought through by the balance team imo.

 

But sure, Death Guard is a strong faction again. 

[Dark Legionnare]

6 hours ago, Iron Sage said:

Yes, it is a hard counter to some armies, like assault armies (where this rule becomes problematiic and particularly if you also run Typhus etc.), and imo too strong and not well thought through by the balance team imo.

 

But sure, Death Guard is a strong faction again. 

I'll be playing Deldar this weekend, so I'll report in, but I don't feel this as even remotely "too strong" at least in a vacuum as it is now. DG hitting power is still rather anemic and short range across the vast majority of the army.

 

You still have to be nearly on top of DG units to be affected, and most certainly they aren't chasing the opponent down other than with haulers or drones, maybe, if they move; especially Deldar. Transports and ravagers can just fly 14" away.

 

I'm not sure I see what Typhus brings to the table at all to be referenced regarding this changing to adding a meaningful effect to the plague auras. What are you referencing?

Edited September 8, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Iron Sage]

3 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

I'll be playing Deldar this weekend, so I'll report in, but I don't feel this as even remotely "too strong" at least in a vacuum as it is now. DG hitting power is still rather anemic and short range across the vast majority of the army.

 

You still have to be nearly on top of DG units to be affected, and most certainly they aren't chasing the opponent down other than with haulers or drones, maybe, if they move; especially Deldar. Transports and ravagers can just fly 14" away.

 

I'm not sure I see what Typhus brings to the table at all to be referenced regarding this changing to adding a meaningful effect to the plague auras. What are you referencing?

Maybe it is not too strong, I hope not. We'll see. My reference concerning Typhus is that his Destroyer Hive interacts with the new Plague faction "power" in a very interesting way. It says subrtact 1 to hit from unit hitting typhis unit, which then should stack with the one from the sickness. 

[Plaguecaster]

18 hours ago, Iron Sage said:

Silly twats are not even trying to  balance things. First an army rule that is so weak that the faction barely is playable then a retcon where it just becomes probably too strong.

 

Sure, I wanted this, but when this new army rule (two of which are SUPER good) is combined with the very significant (and mostly needed) points decrease, I think this is maybe actually too strong. 

 

It's not if you play DG regularly and know our weaknesses, we struggle as slow army that is not as durable. It provides some extra debuffs but one you need to actually be in contagion range to activate it which can be hard for alot of our units as quite slow and fragile  Also most of your opponents heavy hitters will still have high WS or BS so only goes from 2 to a 3 or 4 yet still will have access to modifiers or rerolls that will lessen the effect quite drastically 

It helps Dg but is by no means game breaking 

 

It's lovely as now its am actual unique army ability instead of only being infected objectives which alot of the other armies generally have in some form. The ap debuff improves alot of our weapons that got nerfed like knives etc losing alot of ap on them even plague bolters get better with actual ap likewise with poxwalkers or even cultists now having some form of ap 

 

It's going to be interesting trying out both options to see how the ap and WS / BS debuff help. Also yes typhus ability does stack with sickness as his is a -1 to hit whilst sickness is directly effecting the WS /BS so will stack for a nasty -2 in contagion range. Will be fun to run him to take advantage to see how more survivable him and his unit are.

 

 

[Iron Sage]

Dreadnoughts seem interesting with their contagion ability to open up for either debuff or Armour "rust".

 

To be honest I am incredibly happy with this, I think it may be a bit of knee jerk for me as it seems suspiciously too good. The WS debuff, that is for instance impossible to avoid even with positioning for all armies, so will truly hurt assault based armies. Perhaps it's not too much. But it surprised me we got this truly good fix and then 16 points plague marines and cheaper poxwalkers top with much else. We had a a truly terrible faction rule and our index is uninspiring and there is much I loath about 10th, but this seems very interesting (and good) now that our contagions are actually really powerful and defining (as they should have been). 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Iron Sage

[Dark Legionnare]

13 hours ago, Iron Sage said:

Maybe it is not too strong, I hope not. We'll see. My reference concerning Typhus is that his Destroyer Hive interacts with the new Plague faction "power" in a very interesting way. It says subrtact 1 to hit from unit hitting typhis unit, which then should stack with the one from the sickness. 

Ah!  True, but only in melee though. So it's not an insurmountable deal. If anything, it just means Typhus and his 20 zombie pals might actually stick around in melee?  Paired with a big ol' squad of termies I could see it getting some value too, but that's a lot of points! 

I generally like Typhus and 20 zombies for a fun synergy of fluff and fun for only 200 points. Good "backfield" squad to deal with deepstrikers.

"Okay, if you come back here, I'm going to mind-bullets you (maybe) & make more zombies, and then I'm going to HOPEFULLY drown you in 20 bodies that slowly regenerate as you attrition.  The most Death Guard feeling "set up" in the dex at this point.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm optimistic about list development and synergies with the new plagueier plague.

 

The question is, do I want to invest in rhinos for PMs or do I want to continue to leave most of our flavor/characters on the shelf since all those cool leaders can only go with 1 unit type, that is unbelievably slow?

 

Haven't played with the new update yet. But I summarize the games aren't going to change much, Leagues and Tau got much much better than DG did in comparison.

[DemonGSides]

DG are the new hotness all over Goonhammer and other websites I've been reading.  They aren't quite Busted level, but they have gone from being the laughing stock to at least being able to swing some punches.

The lists are still trending towards mechanized and Daemon influences, but there's some serious things to consider with our points drops.  MBH are so cheap, a full squadron at 300 points.  Or if you want to just flood the board, 60 poxwalkers for 300 points is nothing to sneeze (ha!) at.  Plague Marines still aren't good, but they aren't quite as bad as they were at 20 ppm.  Their weapons still need some help, but their melee got a HUGE boost, the problem is getting them into combat, and I think Strategic Reserves and cheeky walk-ons are one of the better ways, or like mentioned, a rhino rush.  I still don't know if I would be taking full 10 man blobs, but I'm considering it, especially with a foul blightspawn and either Tallyman or the Surgeon (I lean towards tallyman cuz like, free CP is always a good thing).  I don't think i'm taking more than 1 squad of Plague Marines, but I have the models to do so.

I've got a game planned this weekend while visiting a buddy down on LI, and i'm taking it into the recently nerfed Eldar.  Neither of us are competitive minded, so i'm planning on just bringing whatever I have to fill out 2k points, whereas his army was mostly all bought during this 10th ed Eldar rush, so it's going to be a bit anemic, hopefully, with the nerfs hanging off of it.

My current list;

 

2k (2000 points)
Death Guard
Strike Force (2000 points)
Plague Company

CHARACTER

Foul Blightspawn (50 points)
  • 1x Close combat weapon
    1x Plague sprayer

Lord of Virulence (100 points)
  • 1x Heavy plague fist
    1x Twin plague spewer

Mortarion (325 points)
  • Warlord
  • 1x Rotwind
    1x Silence
    1x The Lantern

Tallyman (45 points)
  • 1x Close combat weapon
    1x Infected plasma pistol

Typhus (100 points)
  • 1x Master-crafted manreaper

BATTLELINE

Plague Marines (160 points)
  • 1x Plague Champion
    • 1x Heavy plague weapon
      1x Plasma gun
  • 9x Plague Marine
    • 4x Heavy plague weapon
      3x Plague boltgun
      9x Plague knives
      2x Plague spewer

OTHER DATASHEETS

Blightlord Terminators (165 points)
  • 1x Blightlord Champion
    • 1x Bubotic blade
      1x Plague combi-bolter
  • 4x Blightlord Terminator
    • 4x Bubotic blade
      4x Plague combi-bolter

Deathshroud Terminators (125 points)
  • 1x Deathshroud Champion
    • 1x Manreaper
      1x Plaguespurt gauntlet
  • 2x Deathshroud Terminator
    • 2x Manreaper
      2x Plaguespurt gauntlet

Foetid Bloat-Drone (100 points)
  • 1x Plague probe
    2x Plaguespitter

Foetid Bloat-Drone (100 points)
  • 1x Plague probe
    2x Plaguespitter

Myphitic Blight-Haulers (100 points)
  • 1x Bile spurt
    1x Gnashing maw
    1x Missile launcher
    1x Multi-melta

Myphitic Blight-Haulers (100 points)
  • 1x Bile spurt
    1x Gnashing maw
    1x Missile launcher
    1x Multi-melta

Myphitic Blight-Haulers (100 points)
  • 1x Bile spurt
    1x Gnashing maw
    1x Missile launcher
    1x Multi-melta

Plagueburst Crawler (165 points)
  • 1x Armoured tracks
    2x Entropy cannon
    1x Heavy slugger
    1x Plagueburst mortar

Plagueburst Crawler (165 points)
  • 1x Armoured tracks
    2x Entropy cannon
    1x Heavy slugger
    1x Plagueburst mortar

Poxwalkers (100 points)
  • 20x Poxwalker
    • 20x Improvised weapon

Edited September 11, 2023 by DemonGSides

[Dark Legionnare]

On 9/8/2023 at 10:45 PM, Iron Sage said:

Maybe it is not too strong, I hope not. We'll see. My reference concerning Typhus is that his Destroyer Hive interacts with the new Plague faction "power" in a very interesting way. It says subrtact 1 to hit from unit hitting typhis unit, which then should stack with the one from the sickness. 

I had a lot more things than first game of 10th, primarily because of poxwalkers being cheap and OM reductions.

 

The new auras are fun, but, as expected, Deldar don't give a single damn. Lances drop in everywhere turn 2, annihilate fast movers (on top of haywire on many talos), and stay outside the 6" or something that could get within 6" in my movement phase.

 

I won the game, but that was only because of lucky card draws. Lack of FnP and being so slow was absolutely keenly felt still, as Deldar (and Tau/Eldar/Nids would too I suspect) basically just completely ignore the entire contagions mechanic.  It was not nearly as one-sided as the first game of 10th, but it's still very, very, very easy to take DG's kneecaps out as any of the "We have less rerolls this edition" (except these factions that get rull rerolls easy; like Deldar with two kronos giving ostensibly free full hit rerolls often enough, IE, no pain tolen deficit) factions.

 

I don't see how even with these changes DG can compete with mobile firepower armies without spamming drones, haulers, PBC's. Being pigeonholed into certain things is always bad design, and so far this is still bad design. 

 

In an edition where everyone and their mother got toughness boosts (not just the vehicles) the DG toughness boost but movement loss without any kind of damage reduction is still absolutely brutal. I won the game, but only because of dumb luck on card draws. This is better than it was, but the army flavor/feel is still missing. As well, the slowness without any sort of "meaningful" durability increase is still just a huge handicap.  The difference between DG termies moving 4" compared to everyone else's ahould absolutely bot be written off. That 4" is a huge damn hindrance.

 

We'll be sticking to 7th without formations, decurions, etc... for quite some time with how poor everyone in our group feels about 10th.

 

It really is a shame DG don't feel anywhere near like playing some doggedly resistant war of attrition force like they should. Even with 1 wound in 8th vs primaris having 2W, they felt more "true to form."

 

Not ranting or raving here, just putting in some more two cents as someone who faced exactly the foil I expected the contagions would still have.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Special Officer Doofy]

11 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

It really is a shame DG don't feel anywhere near like playing some doggedly resistant war of attrition force like they should. Even with 1 wound in 8th vs primaris having 2W, they felt more "true to form."

 

While points drops are a good short term bandaid, I'm not a fan. Plague marines are now cheaper than intercessors and the same as tacticals and Mortarion is the cheapest primarch by 55 points. He's twice the size of Guilliman and The lion. Dude lost movement, wounds, strength, attacks, armor pen, damage, swapped his grenade for a spell, lost the ability to cast and deny(3!), lost -1D and swapped other abilities. I have to wonder what Mortarion did to the poor soul who pooped all over the DG index while writing it haha.

 

I mean from the sounds of it they are playable now, but I still don't want to play an army that got hosed so bad. Also, if this makes DG creep into the 45-55% window, I doubt the codex will be the drastic change we all want/desire and give us our FnP/DR back.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Special Officer Doofy

[Dark Legionnare]

7 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

While points drops are a good short term bandaid, I'm not a fan. Plague marines are now cheaper than intercessors and the same as tacticals and Mortarion is the cheapest primarch by 55tps. He's twice the size of Guilliman and The lion. Dude lost movement, wounds, strength, attacks, armor pen, damage, swapped his grenade for a spell, lost the ability to cast and deny(3!), lost -1D and swapped other abilities. I have to wonder what Mortarion did to the poor soul who pooped all over the DG index while writing it haha.

 

I mean from the sounds of it they are playable now, but I still don't want to play an army that got hosed so bad. Also, if this makes DG creep into the 45-55% window, I doubt the codex will be the drastic change we all want/desire and give us our FnP/DR back.

Yeah. That's absolutely my point. I was at least able to survive and do things now, rather than get absolutely swept aside like a hotdog cart in the path of a tsunami like the first two attempts at DG in 10th were.

 

I really like the ideas of the new contagion abilities, and I could see how against less mobile foes like IG, crons, marines, etc... it could be far, far more useful.

 

But in a game against mobile factions, that just sit outside the range and don't have any issue doing so while still hosing you with firepower it's clear how band-aid it is.

 

It's exactly how like in 9th the DR change was neat in theory, but just became: "Oh, alright. Well, I won't shoot my D2 at your troops and other DR anymore, I'll just shoot all my 1D weapons at them, and my 2D at rhinos and such." (And that DR meant basically nothing against the influx of D3+3 damage everywhere)

 

FNP works against everyone, at every time. Even the new devastating wounds.  It's really the only solution, and DG have never felt doggedly hard to put down since the removal of it.

 

Meanwhile, though, squads of racks with 4+ FNP's and 6 talos + 2 Kronos with 5+ FNP's DO feel hardy as hell and it's very, very often the difference that means good rolling on anti-tank doesn't actually put even one of the hovering buggers down once your opponent starts rolling in reaction to the four lascannon wounds.

 

I digress. The want to play DG, for me, is still in the same place it was when 9th came out, and the whole way through. The psychic awakening stuff was fun as hell, but they've felt rather "meh" ever since that got invalidated by 9th.

Edited September 12, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Point for point what do DG have to compare to a Wraith construct, a respulsor executioner, GSC cultists, Grey Knights of any kind, you see where I'm going either this?

 

Other armies have much more versatility to max points. 

[DemonGSides]

I played the list I mentioned above against an eldar list running Yncarne, some vipers and some war walkers with a night spinner and assorted troops. I killed a unit of dire avengers and a unit of warp spiders and got tabled by the end of round 3.

 

Contagions are nice, but either they don't care (yncarne) or they stay away (every other unit) and there's no way to match their speed OR their firepower.

 

Poor Death Guard are in truly rough shape against certain armies. 

[WrathOfTheLion]

On top of the obvious problems with lack of survivability, Death Guard, like all Chaos Marine factions, have a fundamental problem with lack of options. Some like Thousand Sons and to a lesser extent normal CSM have some tools that are letting them get by with that, but it'll always be a problem until they add a bit more to the ranges.

 

It's rather unfortunate possessed are gone out of the book for instance, they would have provided access to a role that isn't easy to come by in the army.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I stand by the 4 princes build. It's really the only way to win.

 

Rhino rush and spawn rush are "okay" but against good shooting armies (all top meta armies) rhinos just get deleted.