Tyranids dataslate/points changes. Updating for January

[Brother Nathan]

Thought may as well have a nids specific post here on the updates. 

Firstly rules changes. A few are anoying/limiting. Tyrant being limited in whats free hurts it but makes swarmlord better. Limiting autopassing moral helps us. Shadow looks better still not great though. No direct nerfs rules wise. 

Points wise... surprised wasnt more movements. Only one that i think really hurts/undeserved is the tyrannofex as the new rule likely wont help its life length.  Zoans needed a hit now before they get too taken... they were 50 points each in 9th so still look golden. 

 

Any other key thoughts?

Edited January 30 by Brother Nathan

[ZeroWolf]

I'm trying to work out if the Screamer-Killer going down in points is any better for it, and we also got the Ripper Swarm change though oddly worded.

 

I need to recalculate my list again. 

[WAdams2152]

Finding it hard to compare as I can’t remember what the version 10.0 point costs were   Is there a comparison list somewhere? General rules changes don’t appear to affect us that much? Devastating Wounds had to change, even if Geanstealers aren’t quite as good as a result. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by WAdams2152
Typo

[Brother Nathan]

The screamer going from 180 to 170 isnt enough in my book. Compared to the malceptor at 125 its... nope. Think 40 points more need off it really

 

Barbgaunts up 10

Biovores up 10

Broodlord down 10

Carnifex same

Deathleaper down 10

Exocrine same

Gargoyles same

Stealers down 5

Harpy down 15

Hausperax same

hiveguardUp 10

Hive crone same

Hive tyrant up 15

Hormagaunts down 5

Lictor down 15

Malceptor up 5

Mawlock same

Mucoloid up 5

Neurogaunts same

Neurolictor new

Neurotyrant same

Norn both new

Ooe same

Parasite down 10

Psychophage same

Pyrovore same

Raveners same

Rippers... sigh squad size change too but also went from 35 for 3 to 60 for 3... 

Screamer down 10

Sporemines up 5

Sporocyst same

Termagaunts same

Terviagon down 10

Swarmlord up 20 

Toxicrine down 20

Trygon same

Melee warriors down 5

Ranged warriors same

Tyrannocyte same

Tyrannofex up 45

Tyrant guard same

Venomthropes same 

Von ryran leaper same

Winged hive tyrant up 15

Winged prime warrior down15

Zoans up 20

 

Forgeworld

Barbed hyrodule up 35

Harriden down 45

Hyrophant same

Scythed hyrodule up 25

 

Enhancements

Adaptive biology same

Alien cunning same

Perfectly adapted same

Synaptic lynchpin up 10

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by Brother nathan

[ZeroWolf]

Ah! That's what was throwing me! I didn't realise that they buggered up the Ripper swarm points that much as each base is 20pts a pop when really, they could have gotten away with 10pts per base. That would have still given them that divisible by 3 result. There's no way that 3 Ripper Swarms are worth 10 Termagaunts.

 

My old army list (which wasn't 1000pts as u needed to get another Barbagaunt squad) was 910 (giving me 40 to play around with for enhancements after adding the old 50pt barbs)

 

Now its 880 odd, or less. I need more models 

[Brother Nathan]

I do wonder the reasons for some of these changes. Usually its over taken units go up and problem units go way up. Was the tyrannofex a problem unit with its random damage or expensive flamer. Zoans i get. Every response of what to get next is zoans.

At what point will we see toxicrines? Do they realise noone talkes ol swarmy?

[Akerkoke]

Why the hell the tyrannofex which has basically one weapon got nerfed and also up 45! points. Absurd

Also the hive guard going up instead of down, screamer killer a good model but should cost 130 points, not 170

They are pushing the lictor detachment to sell the new models imho

[Xenith]

I think they just nerfed anything with indirect, regardless of how they actually are in-game. I don't know if everything with free strats got nerfed, however Tyrants seem dead to me now, limited strats to use, and a 15% hike? No thanks, mine was already bad enough in game with zero damage output. TFex increase is dumb, in conjunction with the -1D nerf. A lot of this sin't making sense to me. Horms are amazing, and they went down? Especially as they're about to get stronger with the endless horde detachment. 20 hormies for 130pts is a steal. Screamers are still overcosted if you'd consider taking 2 fexes instead - they have better A, W and abilities. They should really be around the 150 mark, though 160 might be ok. 155 is probably spot on, where you'd take one as a sidegrade to a fex, but dont have enough points for 2 fexen. 

 

Do we think these are placeholders and will be corrected now the codex is released, or are these the same as the codex? My local GW didn't get their delivery yesterday so I coudn't get my book. 

[Zoatibix]

I believe the points costs in the dataslate supersede those in the codex as they are the most recent ‘balance changes’.

 

(However, given GW’s policy that the most recent points are the one to use, it would technically be the codex printed points that take effect. Which is why they shouldn’t have released the dataslate just before the codex dropped.)

 

I think the increase in Ripper base points is to discourage us from taking dozens of them and carpeting the table with them.

 

(I don’t know if that would be in any way use useful but that’s the kind of silliness that whatever Force Organisations is called now free-for-all invites.)

 

Orher than that, I’m really not sure there is a pattern to these points costs. The change to HVC makes Harpies far less deadly than they were but they are still 215pts. Rupture ‘fex suffers from both a nerf to survivability and a gun that can be kind of inconsistent.

 

The Haruspex is a not old model but…an established one compared to the SK or Norn Emissary. Yet it’s incredibly cheap. Worse, as others have noted the SK doesn’t seem worth the extra over a regular Carnifex. So them just trying to push new kits through points costs…seems inconsistent.

 

Bluntly, as with the different indexes, it feels as if different people did separate bits of this and didn’t try cross checking it.

 

Unfortunately, my codex hasn’t been dispatched, either. 

[Irate Khornate]

They supersede codex costs. Yes, the points values for several units in the codex were invalidated before the book even released. 

 

While I don't think it's going to be like that again, I can't quite express my loathing for this occurrence. I'm holding off from playing 40k until the next codex releases that isn't space marines to see if the pattern tracks.

 

The price gouging I'm used to and invested into equipment for lowering costs. This feels like they invalidated the codex mere days before release to push app usage numbers for shareholders. That tweaks my nerves harder than any price gouges I've ever seen.

 

Anyway I do apologize for the rant.

[Akerkoke]

Looks like 1 biovore + rippers for secondaries, then go with vanguard or endless swarm

[ZeroWolf]

I wonder what value they perceive the Screamer Killer to have that they won't reduce it further compared to the Carnifex. I love the Screamer Killer as a model and it performed well for me (but I have no Carnifex models).

 

Of course GW'S solution will be to just price two Carnifex for 500 pts 

 

How well are nids doing at hitting that 50% victory point?

[Brother Nathan]

I had my first game yesterday of 10th using the new points etc against custodians and was a grind. Id say its pretty level tbh but i was using my all commer list against a kill nids list. 

Exocrine earned his points easily. Tyrannofex not so much but weaked a few units and made a critical kill.  Stealers did do a fair ammount and fnp stacked on their new stats does soak alot more than expected... 

I dont think nids are in a bad spot. My list dropped one squad of termagaunts compared to pre points change. 

 

The bigest things for my opponent limited free strats meant he brought back much fewer models. When shadow of the warp battleshocked 3 of his units including 2 on objectives and he couldnt autopass due to new process threw his plans and cost vital points. 

 

And i didnt use janky spores nor rippers... 

[Xenith]

15 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

I wonder what value they perceive the Screamer Killer to have that they won't reduce it further compared to the Carnifex.

 

Melee was very deadly last edition, so melee monsters should be high points?

Battleshock is the new big thing this edition, so anything that causes BS tests should be higher points.

 

I have no idea, as both of these apply to the haruspex also, and that is priced to sell! 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Xenith

[ZeroWolf]

18 hours ago, Brother nathan said:

I had my first game yesterday of 10th using the new points etc against custodians and was a grind. Id say its pretty level tbh but i was using my all commer list against a kill nids list. 

Exocrine earned his points easily. Tyrannofex not so much but weaked a few units and made a critical kill.  Stealers did do a fair ammount and fnp stacked on their new stats does soak alot more than expected... 

I dont think nids are in a bad spot. My list dropped one squad of termagaunts compared to pre points change. 

 

The bigest things for my opponent limited free strats meant he brought back much fewer models. When shadow of the warp battleshocked 3 of his units including 2 on objectives and he couldnt autopass due to new process threw his plans and cost vital points. 

 

And i didnt use janky spores nor rippers... 

Seems like a good fight then. At least give him hell!

 

6 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Melee was very deadly last edition, so melee monsters should be high points?

Battleshock is the new big thing this edition, so anything that causes BS tests should be higher points.

 

I have no idea, as both of these apply to the haruspex also, and that is priced to sell! 

Reckon GW just pull unit names out of a hat as to which ones get cheaper 

[Brother Nathan]

Its a shame genestealers didnt come out of the hat...

[Brother Nathan]

bumping for another thread but also interested in hearing how people have faired since the slate? anything doing well/ poor. what adjustments do we recon we need/want. 

[Blindhamster]

So genestealers and warriors aren't viewed as good? That's a shame as those are the most recent units my son got :(

[Brother Nathan]

stealers are expensive and prior to this ed were like ..16? ppm.... they were viewed as expensive and not hard to kill. this ed they went up in points because they got a second wound.... they are still glass cannony though imho they are  far tougher than most people expect especially if you can stick fnp on them. but glass cannons for their cost.  warriors suffer from other units being better at specialisation than they are. there are also a few new units that just do it more usefully. want shooty... barbgaunts, want choppy- leapers...  and warriors dont do much fantastically but thay are a generalist unit that also is synapse so not impossible to use. 

[Brother Nathan]

New  slate . Quoting myself to update... 

On 9/9/2023 at 9:04 AM, Brother Nathan said:

 

 

Barbgaunts  same

Biovores same

Broodlord down 10

Carnifex same

Deathleaper up 10

Exocrine same

Gargoyles up 5

Stealers down  10

Harpy same

Hausperax same

hiveguard same

Hive crone same

Hive tyrant same

Hormagaunts same

Lictor down same

Malceptor same

Mawlock same

Mucoloid same

Neurogaunts same

Neurolictor up 15

Neurotyrant same

Norn assimilator down 20

Norn emmisary down 15

Ooe same

Parasite same

Psychophage same

Pyrovore up 5

Raveners same

Rippers same

Screamer down 25

Sporemines same

Sporocyst same

Termagaunts same

Terviagon same

Swarmlord same

Toxicrine down 30

Trygon down 10

Melee warriors same

Ranged warriors same

Tyrannocyte same

Tyrannofex down 55

Tyrant guard same

Venomthropes same 

Von ryran leaper same

Winged hive tyrant same

Winged prime warrior same

Zoans same

 

Forgeworld

Barbed hyrodule same

Harriden down same

Hyrophant same

Scythed hyrodule same

 

Enhancements

No change

 

 

 

So my thoughts on it. Tyrannofex and screamer killer much needed. Prob not quite enough for screamer but right direction.

Not enough for toxicrine as it needs something to allow it to get around terrain rules wise.

Everything else fairly expected slight ups and downs... probably makes little differance in many lists but hits a few tight on points builds such as all lictors.. 

 

Disapointments... could have used points off more unused things. The phycophage needs more off. Tyrants are barely worth it. Parasite does what when lictors exist etc. But it has brought a bit more internal balance to nids to be fair. 

Edited February 2 by Brother Nathan

[Xenith]

New Tyranids points, pleasantly surprised by some, weirdly surprised by others. Nowhere near what was rumour for screamers, but lose. No drop fit the exocrine, which is surprising.

[Brother Nathan]

Colours updated etc now overall decent for nids. didn't get the feared oc0 change which i both want for nids but fear as i know we need a fair bit to help balance that when it gets fixed. i suspect that may come in when the new season game packs come into play rather than manufactorium updates. 

[The Pounder]

I reckon it could have been a lot worse!

 

As it stands do you think Screamer Killers are a viable choice now (I have 2 I’d like to use)

 

It’s a shame the Psychophage didn’t get a boost but with the changes I managed to rejig my list to include some Zoanthropes!

 

All in happy with the changes.

[Brother Nathan]

i do think screamers ar now usable though competitive? not so sure. it all comes down to comparisons with the malceptor and how those battleshock tests truely interact for balance alongside neurolictors and the like...

[Hoffa]

What confuses me is: No points drop on Harpy and Hive crone. I have never seen them played due to them being massivly overpointed. (Aircraft seem just bad in 10:th)