GW has hurt marines by going too heavy into themes

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Speaking largely from the tabletop perspective as the authors seem to have kept things balanced.

 

the single best example imho is space wolves…or should I say space WOLVES.

they went from Vikings in space that just so happened to have used wolf totems/heraldry to their entire identity being wolf.

 

Blood angels are next in line for the worst theme focus.

they went from an army that was simply highly mobile utilizing transports, bikes, and jump packs, but otherwise a pretty normal codex compliant chapter with some mental health issues to “hurr durr we’re super angry and fly everywhere!”

 

dark angels I think got off real easy because to me at least their theme is really hard to pin down and make into something palpable.

 

I think the weird hyper focus GW has put on some sections of marine themes is kinda harmful to those chapters overall.

 

a salamander player might really like salamander lore and how they’re the most humane of the chapters, the draconic imagery, but not necessarily want to be pigeon holed into having to run a bunch of flame weapons for their army to be effective.

 

BA as a 1st founding chapter is codex compliant as much as the flaw allows, and the chapter and many of their successors are actively looking to cure the flaw, yet many BA players lament the idea of just becoming red ultramarines (maybe they should switch to flesh tearers. :P)

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also from a play perspective people then try to lock certain chapters/lineages into a single way to build lists, and lock others out of that, meanwhile there’s a lot of overlap often.

 

’beserker melee’? Space wolves and blood angels.

 

jump infantry? Raven guard and blood angels.

 

Bikers? Dark angels, white scars and a lesser degree blood angels.

 

these are just some examples of why I like the new detachment system so much I guess. The big 4 will get their special detachments that will really epitomize the specific themes GW has set forth, but if you want to play to another part of the chapter’s theme you can by choosing a different detachment.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Counter point: The themes are fine. The execution is just poor.

 

Space Wolves having a strong totemic focus on the wolves of their homeworld isn't bad. They are the apex predators, and influence the spiritual beliefs of the people and therefore the Chapter. If you could tame a wolf the size of a SUV that was strong enough to carry a fully armoured space marine and use them as cavalry rather than a bike...why wouldn't you? The weakness is the word "wolf" being used too much. There are so many different ways to go about it. Wolf Claws could be Lupine Blades or something...still referencing wolves but not just saying wolf.

 

As for Blood Angels, their theme isn't anger. It's the classic vampire trope. A beautiful noble, talented with the blade but always fighting to keep the thirst in check. A good way to let out that built up bloodlust is in melee, so they have a preference for it without overly specialising in it. They're artisans with a small habit of swapping the brush for a blade.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Counter point: The themes are fine. The execution is just poor.

 

Space Wolves having a strong totemic focus on the wolves of their homeworld isn't bad. They are the apex predators, and influence the spiritual beliefs of the people and therefore the Chapter. If you could tame a wolf the size of a SUV that was strong enough to carry a fully armoured space marine and use them as cavalry rather than a bike...why wouldn't you? The weakness is the word "wolf" being used too much. There are so many different ways to go about it. Wolf Claws could be Lupine Blades or something...still referencing wolves but not just saying wolf.

 

As for Blood Angels, their theme isn't anger. It's the classic vampire trope. A beautiful noble, talented with the blade but always fighting to keep the thirst in check. A good way to let out that built up bloodlust is in melee, so they have a preference for it without overly specialising in it. They're artisans with a small habit of swapping the brush for a blade.

I’m not upset about the themes, I am upset about the execution.

the execution being they’ve begun leaning way too much on certain parts of the themes  to a nearly comical level.

 

for BA the theme is angel, it’s vampire, it’s Italian renaissance.

but on the table top they basically translate it all to “hurr durr we’re angry a I vant to drink your blood!”

 

they lean into the angel theme with the physical winged models, and by focusing on jump infantry. Which makes sense the gene lineage of a physical literal angel would like to fly, which is exactly what the codexes say, so it makes sense that BA would be skilled at piloting skimmers like the speeders as well as actual aircraft, but the hyper focus ends up on the jump packs.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Cpt_Reaper]

Can you point out the hyper focus on jump packs? Because I can't see it. They once could take Assault Marines as Troops (which didn't need to have jump packs), and had honour guard and death company squads that could take jump packs. Plus the Sanguinary Guard. It's no different to Dark Angels going all in on terminators and/or bikes, with the exception that DA had unique terminators and bikes.

Of their characters, four had jump packs (Dante, Asteroth, Lemartes and the Sanguinor) and four (Tycho, Mephiston, Corbulo and Karlaen) did not.

 

I also dispute the angelic part of the Blood Angels. yes I know...but they aren't angels. They are just Italian renaissance vampires that use angelic imagery to emulate Sanguinius, appearing as angels despite being bloodthirsty monsters trying to keep it together for just a moment longer. He was the Angel, they are the Blood.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Can you point out the hyper focus on jump packs? Because I can't see it. They once could take Assault Marines as Troops (which didn't need to have jump packs), and had honour guard and death company squads that could take jump packs. Plus the Sanguinary Guard. It's no different to Dark Angels going all in on terminators and/or bikes, with the exception that DA had unique terminators and bikes.

Of their characters, four had jump packs (Dante, Asteroth, Lemartes and the Sanguinor) and four (Tycho, Mephiston, Corbulo and Karlaen) did not.

 

I also dispute the angelic part of the Blood Angels. yes I know...but they aren't angels. They are just Italian renaissance vampires that use angelic imagery to emulate Sanguinius, appearing as angels despite being bloodthirsty monsters trying to keep it together for just a moment longer. He was the Angel, they are the Blood.

Jump pack melee focus to be specific.

 

in 3rd edition there was only 1 unit that clearly leaned into melee over shooting with a jump pack, available to BA, and that was DC.

 

Assault squads always gave the best bang when you took the two special weapons available to them, honor guard weren’t a  particularly melee specialist unit either, especially not when compared to SG.

psychic power wings of sanguinius effectively makes a unit jump infantry as well. Then there’s fact they added 2 more special jump characters…

It’s also in how they market the army, which in large part comes from codex art including the cover.

While 9th’s dex had AIs front and center there was still more jump infantry present.

codex before that was a single jump infantry marine.

 

now compare that with older edition codexes where there was at least parity in the number of jump marines featured and non-jump marines on the covers.

 

I bet if I take the time to go through the interior art work of the last codex there will be a lot more jump marines in most of it as well.

[Gamiel]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

they went from Vikings in space that just so happened to have used wolf totems/heraldry to their entire identity being wolf.

I think you are missremembering things, they have been very wolf themed for a very long time with their Great Wolf, Wolf Lords, Wolf Guard, Wolf Priest, Long Fangs, Blood Claws, Wolf Scouts and wolf companions that fight beside them all from at least 2ed. And the same goes with the wolf bling, they were covered with wolf pelts, wolf skulls, wolf fangs/claws, wolf tails, and most of their markings/heraldry (that’s not geometry based*) being wolf based since at least 2nd ed., with the wolf-helmet appearing as early as in 1st ed.

* this could be a deep heraldry joke actually, since the kind of zigzag pattern that the SW uses a lot is known as “wolf's teeth” when it comes to heraldry, at least in parts of Europe.

 

Also, the Viking stuff was just one of many inspirations for the Space Wolves, we also have stuff like: haircuts and facepaint from Sláine; names like Logan, Kyrl and Krom; stuff like dropping moustaches, hair-crests, top-knots, high pony-tails; Sword & Sorcery barbarians’ axes, swoards, broad belts; and similar. Visually there is very little that's really viking about the 'Wolves.

 

I would say that's it's actually in later years they have become more Viking-ish then they were before with them now having jarl as a translation for Wolf Lord, using einherjar, huscarl and similar for names of their troops and ranks, and similar.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Gamiel

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

I think you are missremembering things, they have been very wolf themed for a very long time with their Great Wolf, Wolf Lords, Wolf Guard, Wolf Priest, Long Fangs, Blood Claws, Wolf Scouts and wolf companions that fight beside them all from at least 2ed. And the same goes with the wolf bling, they were covered with wolf pelts, wolf skulls, wolf fangs/claws, wolf tails, and most of their markings/heraldry (that’s not geometry based*) being wolf based since at least 2nd ed., with the wolf-helmet appearing as early as in 1st ed.

* this could be a deep heraldry joke actually, since the kind of zigzag pattern that the SW uses a lot is known as “wolf's teeth” when it comes to heraldry, at least in parts of Europe.

 

Also, the Viking stuff was just one of many inspirations for the Space Wolves, we also have stuff like: haircuts and facepaint from Sláine; names like Logan, Kyrl and Krom; stuff like dropping moustaches, hair-crests, top-knots, high pony-tails; Sword & Sorcery barbarians’ axes, swoards, broad belts; and similar. Visually there is very little that's really viking about the 'Wolves.

 

I would say that's it's actually in later years they have become more Viking-ish then they were before with them now having jarl as a translation for Wolf Lord, using einherjar, huscarl and similar for names of their troops and ranks, and similar.

 

 

I don’t care about things being named wolf, makes sense for a tribe that uses wolves as their totem, same for the pelts and what not, but I do think the upgrade sprues for wolf helmets is again, a bit much.

what I’m talking about is the wulfen, thunder wolves, sleigh pulled by wolves, on top of all of the original stuff, just turns them into a meme of what they were.

 

im also pretty sure the fantasy barbarian as we know it today was heavily inspired by old Viking cliches(that may have since been proven wrong/inaccurate lol)

Edited September 19, 2023 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheNicronomicon]

Personally I picked space wolves because I like the wolf theme. Gimme more wolves and werewolves! Looking to GW for taste, elegance, and refined understatement seems like a fool’s errand to me. 
 

the “fantasy barbarian” is mostly based on RE Howard’s Conan, which is certainly *not* Viking-themed though Howard used them for other cultures in Hyboria. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, TheNicronomicon said:

Personally I picked space wolves because I like the wolf theme. Gimme more wolves and werewolves! Looking to GW for taste, elegance, and refined understatement seems like a fool’s errand to me. 
 

the “fantasy barbarian” is mostly based on RE Howard’s Conan, which is certainly *not* Viking-themed though Howard used them for other cultures in Hyboria. 

A google image search of fantasy barbarians shows me a lot of images that are clearly reminiscent of Vikings.

[TheNicronomicon]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A google image search of fantasy barbarians shows me a lot of images that are clearly reminiscent of Vikings.

A quick google image search also shows me there are plenty of space marine sized Viking bits out there. What’s your point?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

32 minutes ago, TheNicronomicon said:

A quick google image search also shows me there are plenty of space marine sized Viking bits out there. What’s your point?

My point is it does seem the general ‘barbarian’ idea in fantasy is very much inspired by Viking cliches regardless of it Conan was the origin of the trope.

[TheNicronomicon]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

My point is it does seem the general ‘barbarian’ idea in fantasy is very much inspired by Viking cliches regardless of it Conan was the origin of the trope.

Sorry, initially you were talking about the origin of it. Now you’re talking about what people do with the concept several decades after its origination. Of course you can find that stuff, but it doesn’t mean anything. Are you a Wolves player?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, TheNicronomicon said:

Sorry, initially you were talking about the origin of it. Now you’re talking about what people do with the concept several decades after its origination. Of course you can find that stuff, but it doesn’t mean anything. Are you a Wolves player?

I am not a wolves player. Yet over the years I’ve read or heard many SW players lament their chapter being turned into furries.

maybe I wasn’t clear with what I meant.

 

what I meant was not necessarily the origin from square one but the origins as it was known in the late 80s /early 90s

 

as a kid in the 90s almost every depiction of a barbarian I remember seeing was very Viking like, often down to the horned ‘Viking helmet’

[ThePenitentOne]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Also from a play perspective people then try to lock certain chapters/lineages into a single way to build lists, and lock others out of that, meanwhile there’s a lot of overlap often.

 

’beserker melee’? Space wolves and blood angels.

 

jump infantry? Raven guard and blood angels.

 

Bikers? Dark angels, white scars and a lesser degree blood angels.

 

these are just some examples of why I like the new detachment system so much I guess. The big 4 will get their special detachments that will really epitomize the specific themes GW has set forth, but if you want to play to another part of the chapter’s theme you can by choosing a different detachment.

 

I was a huge fan of rule differentiation for subfactions, and it's one of the reasons why 9th is still my favourite edition- 8th and 9th were the only editions where every single faction in the game received the benefit of subfaction distinction that marines have enjoyed since 2nd. It was great to have

 

It isn't that Space Wolves don't have bikes. Of course they do.

 

But their bike fighters aren't going to be as good as Whitescars Bikers and they shouldn't expect to be, because they aren't... And that IS the lore. A system that allows a Space Wolf biker to be as good as a Whitescars biker is a disservice to the lore. I understand the Flanderization argument... I really do. But for me personally, I believe that subfactions being strong at some things and weaker at others is an integral piece of identity and world building.

 

Put another way, when every subfaction can be as good at anything as any other subfaction, then no one is special, and subfaction identity really is nothing but a paint job and a story on a page that has no real impact on the actual game.

 

Space Marines are lucky enough to have bespoke units for some of their subfactions, but for most other factions, those subfaction rules were the only identity we had. I'd care less about the rules differences between Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud if each of those factions included a bespoke unit or two... But they don't. So one's better in close combat and the other is better at mobility? Great. Better than them just being different colours and having a different story.

 

I don't expect to change your mind- I understand your point of view, and it's every bit as valid as mine; we've just got different preferences.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by ThePenitentOne

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

53 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

I was a huge fan of rule differentiation for subfactions, and it's one of the reasons why 9th is still my favourite edition- 8th and 9th were the only editions where every single faction in the game received the benefit of subfaction distinction that marines have enjoyed since 2nd. It was great to have

 

It isn't that Space Wolves don't have bikes. Of course they do.

 

But their bike fighters aren't going to be as good as Whitescars Bikers and they shouldn't expect to be, because they aren't... And that IS the lore. A system that allows a Space Wolf biker to be as good as a Whitescars biker is a disservice to the lore. I understand the Flanderization argument... I really do. But for me personally, I believe that subfactions being strong at some things and weaker at others is an integral piece of identity and world building.

 

Put another way, when every subfaction can be as good at anything as any other subfaction, then no one is special, and subfaction identity really is nothing but a paint job and a story on a page that has no real impact on the actual game.

 

Space Marines are lucky enough to have bespoke units for some of their subfactions, but for most other factions, those subfaction rules were the only identity we had. I'd care less about the rules differences between Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud if each of those factions included a bespoke unit or two... But they don't. So one's better in close combat and the other is better at mobility? Great. Better than them just being different colours and having a different story.

 

I don't expect to change your mind- I understand your point of view, and it's every bit as valid as mine; we've just got different preferences.

 

 

I mean no one said SW bikers should be as good as WS bikers, but I’m sure there’s a lot more to SW than ‘wolf’ 

 

just like there’s more to WS than bikes, and more to DA than whiny emos who are ashamed of their family tree.

 

I have no problems with bespoke rules for chapters, but in 9th BA codex had 3 non-jump pack special characters.(counting both tychos as one, and Gabriel Seth) compared to 5 with jump packs (counting Mephiston because of wings of sanguinius.)

the last two characters they added both were jump infantry.

 

meanwhile there is a perfectly good terminator captain character that I’ve never seen in a codex.

[MegaVolt87]

30k does a better job with every loyalist OG legion. In 40k, they get reduced to caricatures. 

[Marshal Reinhard]

There'd be less ammo for the whole DA = traitors meme if not every two bit author who touched them included a "lol DA backstabs other loyalist forces because there was a whiff of unforgiven aftershave in a system".

[Gamiel]

7 hours ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

There'd be less ammo for the whole DA = traitors meme if not every two bit author who touched them included a "lol DA backstabs other loyalist forces because there was a whiff of unforgiven aftershave in a system".

Can you given examples of this? I know of DA forces leaving allies to fulfil their duty as Unforgiven appearing in Campaign books and Codexes, but what stories have them backstabbing allies? 

[MegaVolt87]

49 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

Can you given examples of this? I know of DA forces leaving allies to fulfil their duty as Unforgiven appearing in Campaign books and Codexes, but what stories have them backstabbing allies? 

 

Older lore, an entire BT crusade went "missing" when investigating cultist activity, which ended up being fallen related. 

[Gamiel]

8 hours ago, MegaVolt87 said:

Older lore, an entire BT crusade went "missing" when investigating cultist activity, which ended up being fallen related. 

Where is it from? And @Marshal Reinhard's statement made it sound like it has happened lots of times and in stories, so do we have any more examples? 

[Marshal Reinhard]

11 hours ago, Gamiel said:

Can you given examples of this? I know of DA forces leaving allies to fulfil their duty as Unforgiven appearing in Campaign books and Codexes, but what stories have them backstabbing allies? 

Seems you have me "got", as I'll freely admit I do not particularly follow DA stories. The only incident i can name by name is the Ophidium Gulf incident, which was even referenced in the 4th Edition BT codex, so it's not exactly hot off the presses. It's quite possibly the only incident where they attack other loyalist astartes. But I've heard mentions of IG (its always IG huh) and Inquisitors.

 

I do remember an event from a book being discussed on this very forum of an incident where the DA purged their IG allies after a successful campaign together because there had been an alert of Fallen activity, but I couldn't name said book if my life depended on it.

 

"Backstab" can also mean just ditching your allies and going somewhere else, which I believe is the more common action, DA pulling all of their forces and leaving allies fending forthemselves as they'll put said forces on a chase halfway across the galaxy instead.

 

 

But really I'm just regurgitating what I've heard many times over the years, here and elsewhere. But I do not have any of the receipts. If you wish to make the point I'm just following incorrect fan perceptions with nothing to back it up, I admit, I have no retort. I'll only say I've heard it enough times that I don't think its a controversial take, and most of the voices I heard it from expressed it in way of "I wish these authors would do something else with my favourite legion rather than more Fallen"

Edited September 21, 2023 by Marshal Reinhard

[Cpt_Reaper]

That there is my point, Reinhard. How much of the online discourse around themes of Chapters is actually based on what is presented and not just regurgitated 1d4chan memes?

[Marshal Reinhard]

I dont recall replying specifically to you? 

 

Regardless, I don't feel the need to change my outlook much. Just because I can't produce receipts doesn't mean noone else can. Unless some DA lore authority comes in and says "No, Ophidium gulf and that one other book incident, are in fact the only 2 incidents that ever were", I'll continue to believe it is an actual unfortunate thing. Lazy writing. 

 

Pretty much in the vein of, like for years, when authors needed to have a recognisable loyalist chapter lose battles, they somehow always picked Imperial Fists.

 

Meme's don't appear out of thin air of themselves. And 40k has enough bad writing to feed them all.

[Cpt_Reaper]

I was replying to you with the assumption it was part of a larger conversation. Seems a few posts may have been removed, so my earlier issues about insinuations about the Dark Angels have vanished.

 

The Ophidium Gulf incident did indeed occur. It involved the Black Templars not just hearing of the Fallen, they had Cypher himself on their strike cruiser. Any other Fallen would be bad enough, and it has been shown that the Inquisition (or at least certain Inquisitors) will declare the Dark Angel line as heretics because the Fallen exist, not because of what they do to cover up that fact. See the Comic "Fallen" for reference. https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Fallen_(Comic_Series). And the Templars called the Inquisition on them (the Inquisitor vanished too)

 

In Warzone: Fenris, Azrael states that if they don't keep the Fallen a secret they'll be branded traitors, but also knows what they do is grounds for being called traitors. They have to clean up the mess from Caliban before someone gets wise. he will order the Unforgiven to lay down arms if they are declared traitors.

 

I too cannot find any mention of the Dark Angels killing Imperial Guard in any novel. In the Siege of Vraks they blew up a start port and left after being defeated by the Alpha Legion, and in their codex it mentions a few times they turned up late or abandoned allies to go hunt Fallen, but I cannot find any mention of them actively slaughtering witnesses. So therefore I must state that the claim that the Dark Angels turned on Imperial Guard in a novel is in fact false, as I cannot find any proof such a novel exists.

 

Memes don't appear out of thin air, but they can be built on a throwaway line and then run from there. Krieg and their fondness for shovels comes to mind. Blood Angels are vampires from the renaissance, but they don't run around drinking blood all day every day with bad accents. Space Wolves are Norse-inspired barbarians with a religion based on wolves, but they aren't trying to turn everything into wolf of the wolf wolf (likely just weird translation from Fenrisian to Gothic. Wolf could be analogous to the world Holy or Blessed)