GW has hurt marines by going too heavy into themes

[Marshal Reinhard]

Very surface level searching told me in a book called Ravening (Ravenwing?), the dark angels abandon a planet to go hunt for rumors of fallen, while in master of sanctity, suppossedly the Rock eventually showed up and put the (orks?) down, as well as eliminated fallen witnesses. 

 

I cannot ascertain wether any of this is true or not, I don't care to find or read these books. If you have read them and know it to be false I'll take your word for it.

 

I'll take unverified accounts with a lot of grains of salt, but will not dismiss them entirely out of hand, just as I will take your general "stating that they must be false" with a grain of salt and but not dismiss it entirely.

[Orange Knight]

My sentiment is thus:

 

The lore used to say that certain chapters favour certain methods of warfare. To favour something does not mean you apply yourself towards that thing to the exclusion of everything else.

 

GW made rules, models and even aesthetic choices that leaned too heavily into specific themes for various chapters, and it made those chapters more one-dimensional.

 

[Cenobite Terminator]

I’m not excited about the new detachment rules however there are a couple that look competitive. I’ll stick with Gladius for now.

[Gamiel]

On 9/19/2023 at 3:49 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

dark angels I think got off real easy because to me at least their theme is really hard to pin down and make into something palpable.

Gothic-monastic, with some knight and flying hussars stuff here and there. Used to have some Northamerican Indigenous stuff but that have mostly been dropped besdie the feathers on the Deathwings.

 

On 9/19/2023 at 4:06 PM, Cpt_Reaper said:

Space Wolves having a strong totemic focus on the wolves of their homeworld isn't bad. They are the apex predators, and influence the spiritual beliefs of the people and therefore the Chapter. If you could tame a wolf the size of a SUV that was strong enough to carry a fully armoured space marine and use them as cavalry rather than a bike...why wouldn't you? The weakness is the word "wolf" being used too much. There are so many different ways to go about it. Wolf Claws could be Lupine Blades or something...still referencing wolves but not just saying wolf.

But beside the thunderwolves are all those wolf names from 2ed. A bit late to begin to complain about it at 5ed (which is where I see most people saying that the SW turned too wolfy).

 

On 9/19/2023 at 10:07 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

but I do think the upgrade sprues for wolf helmets is again, a bit much.

The wolf-helemt look have been around since 1ed, with how the fanbase seems to like the nods to the old stuff and complain about anything new do I find the hostility toward those helmets strange. and I don't see people complaing about the Iron Warriors upgrade sprue being based on their Legion symbol. 

 

On 9/19/2023 at 10:07 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

wulfen

Been around since at least 2ed, got their first models in 3ed. 

 

On 9/19/2023 at 10:07 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

sleigh pulled by wolves

I think the term that the books uses is chariot, and i'm surpriced that you dislike it since you wanted your SW to be Viking-ish and the design is clearly based around the idea of a viking ship, and it could be seen as a nod toward Thor's goat drawn chariot.

 

On 9/20/2023 at 12:50 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A google image search of fantasy barbarians shows me a lot of images that are clearly reminiscent of Vikings.

And my oogling for "fantasy barbarians" shows me a lot of images that are clearly not reminiscent of Vikings. Maybe we have different algoritms or different ideas about what is reminiscent of Vikings?

 

On 9/20/2023 at 3:10 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

as a kid in the 90s almost every depiction of a barbarian I remember seeing was very Viking like, often down to the horned ‘Viking helmet’

Can you give some examples of this becouse I don't remember any "very Viking like" barbarians from the 90's. Also, you do know that the horned ‘Viking helmet’ is not historicall correct? And even if we go with the old helmeted viking looks don't I racall the Space Wolves of old sporting that look.

 

On 9/21/2023 at 10:59 AM, Marshal Reinhard said:

Pretty much in the vein of, like for years, when authors needed to have a recognisable loyalist chapter lose battles, they somehow always picked Imperial Fists.

 I know of the Ultramarine movie, but what other instances are you thinking off?

 

23 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Space Wolves are Norse-inspired barbarians

Visually they are more fantasy barbarians with notable nods toward Slaién, the only really Norse about them are their runes, and the stuff with young members (blood claws) rushing forward on great groups to win glory feels more pop-cultural celts/gauls and fantasy barbarians then vikings, at least to me. When it comes to their mythology and modern nomenclature there is a clear Norse inspiration.

[Blindhamster]

21 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

My sentiment is thus:

 

The lore used to say that certain chapters favour certain methods of warfare. To favour something does not mean you apply yourself towards that thing to the exclusion of everything else.

 

GW made rules, models and even aesthetic choices that leaned too heavily into specific themes for various chapters, and it made those chapters more one-dimensional.

 

I think this is mostly fair.

 

where it falls over is the deviations that are straight up genetic, notably the wolves canis helix and the blood angels red thirst. IMO for those chapters they really ought to replace OoM instead of having distinct detachments.

 

honestly for blood angels, if they used codex detachments, but used red thirst (in its current, weaker than 9th state) instead of OoM, it would actually be a pretty good representation of the chapter - they fight in the codex manner, but always lean a little more toward close combat because of the curse, with the other curse (black rage) represented by death company

 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Blindhamster

[jaxom]

I think it comes down to where lore aesthetics meet rules utility. One of the challenges of game design is recognizing when your learning too much into the former at one level so it is a detriment to other levels. I think @Inquisitor_Lensoven is correct with the idea that all Chapters can do all the things we expect Space Marines to do and they shouldn't be pigeonholed. I agree with @Blindhamster that each Chapter's nature should impact how they do so. My litmus test is "Does the sub-faction rule(s) apply to Battleline Companies, the Tactical Reserve Companies, the Close Support Reserve Company, and the Heavy Support Reserve Company?" If no, then it pigeonholes the sub-faction. I don't think all the 8th/9th sub-faction rules were where they needed to be, but the Chapter supplements did amazing work by describing how each Chapter strictly following the codex put their own spin on things.

 

Then you have the Space Wolves who actually don't follow the Codex 

[Gamiel]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:46 AM, Marshal Reinhard said:

Seems you have me "got", as I'll freely admit I do not particularly follow DA stories. The only incident i can name by name is the Ophidium Gulf incident, which was even referenced in the 4th Edition BT codex, so it's not exactly hot off the presses. It's quite possibly the only incident where they attack other loyalist astartes. But I've heard mentions of IG (its always IG huh) and Inquisitors.

I have the 4ed BT codex where the Ophidium Gulf incident is mentioned and unless the WD version is different did the DA not attack the BT there. Yes they were willing to fight the BT over the prisoner, that likley was a Fallen, unless the BT handed the prisoner handed him over, which they did. This is not really anything special, many chapters have been know to actually fight each other over perceived slights of honour or similar so that in its self is not really anything that’s special. Now the ‘Ophidium Gulf’ cruiser did disappear after messaging what they had gone through, and for us that know the lore about the DA that really points to that they were behind it, but it’s never stated, and we do know that ships have been known to just disappear when travelling the Warp. So we can’t say that the DA were behind it.

[Dracos]

Even if you “lean” into a particular style that’s going to be an advantage in the instance it comes into play. Anytime you lean into something you have to lean away from something else.

 

GW historically doesn’t care about our desire for competitive balance. They did try at times to nod toward it by limiting certain units from these divergent Chapters (ie no Librarians) but honestly anyone playing those armies knowingly and deciding it was worth the “sacrifice”. Vanilla Chapters like Imperial Fist or  Salamanders never had that choice. 
 

+1 creates a feel bad of unfairness without a -1 to balance the equation …. unless you’re the +1 of course 

[LSM]

17 hours ago, Dracos said:

...Vanilla Chapters like Imperial Fist or  Salamanders never had that choice...

 

Fair point, but Salamanders are a bit of a bad example, considering they were in Codex: Armageddon alongside Black Templars.

 

(Their Librarian had a unique Psychic Power, they had unique wargear, they only had access to a unique Terminator Squad with SB&PF or TH&SS + HFs, unique Tactical, Assault, and Bike Squads with lower Initiative and different weapon options, and a restriction on Fast Attack choices - everything being 0-1, and only one Land Speeder unit deployable. Oh, and Predator Destructors could take HF sponsons.)

[Orange Knight]

Salamanders used to have great rule and model support.

 

Let's not forget about their unique Dreadnought, Apothecary and various characters that are no longer available. 

 

You could make an argument that a chapter focused on flame and melta, that hails from a lava planet, deserves to be just as distinctive as any of the more divergent chapters.

[Dracos]

2 hours ago, LSM said:

 

Fair point, but Salamanders are a bit of a bad example, considering they were in Codex: Armageddon alongside Black Templars.

 

(Their Librarian had a unique Psychic Power, they had unique wargear, they only had access to a unique Terminator Squad with SB&PF or TH&SS + HFs, unique Tactical, Assault, and Bike Squads with lower Initiative and different weapon options, and a restriction on Fast Attack choices - everything being 0-1, and only one Land Speeder unit deployable. Oh, and Predator Destructors could take HF sponsons.)

Nice catch. I was wondering if anyone would remember Sallies in Codex: Armageddon. But that was a millennia ago and Sallies definitely had the second best space marine set of supplements in that book. It did get hem a following. I find it a shame they didn’t get as equal set of rules as the BT. Who are the poster boys of what you can make happen when you put the effort into creating a unique chapter rule set.