Question about successor chapters founded by the High Lords

[jaxom]

We know the High Lords can declare a new Founding. The gene-seed is cultured on Mars in vat-bodies and used. Has there ever been anything official on where the initiates come from or who trains them or if the officer corps all comes out of those initiates? How much would such Chapters know about their Primarchs? Just Imperial propoganda or what the Ecclesiarchy says?

[Brother Tyler]

Games Workshop has never nailed down a single method for the creation of a new Chapter, though there is evidence to support various theories. Indeed, it's likely that a variety of methods have been employed over the millennia.

 

One common theory is that a cadre of experienced members of the predecessor Chapter (i.e., the Chapter from whose gene-seed the new Chapter is created) train the new Chapter. In this way, the traditions and knowledge of the older Chapter might be passed down to the new Chapter. Whether or not any members of this cadre remain with the new Chapter or return to the original Chapter is unknown (and it might vary).

 

A variation on the above is that the training cadre might come from a Chapter other than the predecessor. It might be logical to assume that this would be a Chapter descended from the same Legion/Primarch as the predecessor, but there are probably occasions where an entirely different Chapter provided the training cadre. It's still possible for the training cadre to remain with the new Chapter, especially in a situation where the training cadre is from a related Chapter.

 

Another method is that there is no Adeptus Astartes training cadre, with the new Chapter being indoctrinated into the Codex Astartes (or some other doctrine) via some other method such as servitors. After all, a significant portion of Adeptus Astartes training involves hypnoinduction, and the special organs of the Adeptus Astartes might allow for even more interesting forms of "training" (e.g., the omophagea). The Ultima Founding provides a foundation for this method (unless some Chapter(s) somewhere knew about the Primaris Space Marines before they were formally introduced).

 

Here is what I said in an old discussion on this topic:

 

Quote

 

The simple answer is that we don't know. Aside from the fact that the High Lords of Terra decide that there will be a new founding and sufficient gene-seed and equipment is assembled (the gene-seed being pulled from stocks of selected Chapters and the equipment being either built or pulled out of mothballs), there is evidence that a number of methods have been used.

 

The Second Founding, which was exceptional, is the primary example of Chapters being created by being taken wholesale from the existing Legions. The Sons of Medusa were similar in that they were created by taken those members of various Iron Hands Legion Successors who believed in the teachings of the Moirae Schism, which appears to have been a schismatic belief that grew within those that followed the Cult Mechanicus. Unlike the Second Founding where each Chapter was derived from a single Legion (so far as we know ), the Sons of Medusa drew from all of the Iron Hands Legion Successors (except the Red Talons, who executed all of their battle-brothers who followed the beliefs). Granted, they all shared the gene-seed of Ferrus Manus. Up until recently, these were often recommended as the only examples of Chapters being born by being broken off of existing Chapters [or Legions], but recent official lore has shown us at least one other Chapter created in this way (AD-B's wife's Chapter, whose name I can't recall at the moment).

 

Whether or not an existing Chapter provides a core of battle-brothers and officers to lead a new Chapter is a matter for debate. The pure-Primaris Chapters of the Ultima Founding demonstrate that this doesn't have to happen, and if it happened for those new Chapters, it's entirely possible that it happened for [some] Chapters created in the past.

 

Similarly, whether or not an existing Chapter provides a cadre to train a new Chapter (and then return to their parent Chapter) is also a matter for debate. As the Ultima Founding Chapters demonstrate, this doesn't have to happen. Either that or there is at least one Chapter somewhere that knew about the Primaris Adeptus Astartes and didn't reveal the secret until Roboute Guilliman and Cawl formally introduced them. It could be that the Adeptus Mechanicus has methods to indoctrinate the members of the new Chapter with all of the necessary skill sets without the need for an established Chapter - especially if the Adeptus Mechanicus has their own copy (or copies) of the Codex Astartes. Hypnoindoctrination, necro-cognition, programmed servitors, etc. could go a long way towards providing a baseline skill set to a nascent Chapter.

 

Something to consider is all of those Chapters whose lineage is unknown. There are a few, such as the Exorcists, whose unknown lineage makes sense (and we don't need to get into the debate about whether or not the Exorcists were created using the gene-seed of the Grey Knights). If a predecessor (parent) Chapter sent a team of battle-brothers/officers to form the core of a new Chapter, both Chapters should know the lineage of the new Chapter. This assumes, of course, that the cadre and the new Chapter have compatible gene-seed. For an established Chapter to send a cadre to form the core of a new Chapter with incompatible gene-seed, I imagine that all of the battle-brothers and officers sent to the new Chapter would have both of their progenoids removed first so that this invaluable resource wouldn't go to waste.

 

A new Chapter will undergo a period of training before they are considered ready. It's entirely possible that a new Chapter might be created from scratch, its initial officer leadership simply being the most suitable and potent of the new batch of Adeptus Astartes.

 

Ultimately, there is room for multiple processes to have been used over the millennia.

 

 

Various members made very good points in that discussion, so it might be worth a read.

[Wormwoods]

2 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

Indeed, it's likely that a variety of methods have been employed over the millennia.

 

Fully agree, and actually take it a step further: The method for creating a new chapter is whatever will best support the vibe and lore of your successor. With the understanding that 10,000 years is a long time for methods to change and experiments to be spun out you can make just about anything line up with the feel of 40K, and your own successor. The Cursed Founding is a canonical event, so we KNOW they like to mess around with this stuff from time to time. 

 

As with everything in the hobby, the true answer is 'whatever helps you tell a better story, so long as it meshes with the stories of the people you're playing with'. Maybe that means the direct guidance of the progenitor chapter, maybe that means a fresh, entirely sterile generation that produces blank slate marines, ready to be affected by their circumstances. Maybe it means survivors of a purged chapter being secretly pardoned and given a new name and heraldry so as not to waste their institutional knowledge! If it's weird and a little horrible it's probably going to work. 

[Galron]

Canonically the only method I have read of in official GW writings was the parent chapter sends over a cadre to train and lead the new chapter. They typically stick around to form the new command staff, especially since training and recruitment takes decades if not a century as equipment and new recruits are brought online. Its entirely possible and probable that they would be sent on low intensity conflicts ramping up before being fully operational just to gain live fire experience.

 

But as stated, a lot of this is left completely blank intentionally. 

[Forté]

And if you don't want to explain and just want some fun...

 

13th Founding!

 

All records and documents destroyed/missing/locked/whatever you want.

[Closet Skeleton]

On 9/23/2023 at 7:29 PM, jaxom said:

How much would such Chapters know about their Primarchs? Just Imperial propoganda or what the Ecclesiarchy says?

 

How much does any chapter know about Primarchs? Even most first founding chapters don't have accurate information about 10,000 years ago.

 

Space marines are literally brainwashed as part of their training, they don't have more accurate information than anyone else in the Imperium.

[CCE1981]

It is a lot of fun to figure out how to found a Chapter and what goes into it, including finding the holes in the lore.  Nestling your Chapter in those spaces is a lot of fun.  In mine I asked the question, “when is a Chapter considered founded? When they first sign the document to found a new one, or when it is operating at full strength, or able to conduct operations on its own?”
 

Just be careful about “being the only Chapter” or “ the Best Chapter at X”, you don’t want to step on any toes. “Renowned for X”, or “Specialize in X” leaves a lot of wiggle room.  Also, try mot to be cliche, unless you can find a unique way of hamstringing your new Chapter when it was founded.  “Catastrophe struck two standard years after my Chapter was founded reducing their numbers to a mere 100, since then they have been clawing their way back” is boring.

 

 For mine, I asked what happens if my Chapter is still in its infancy and their parent Chapter went rogue? “ Here comes Inquisition scrutiny, now how do I get my Chapter the gear they need? A small exploratory faction of the Adeptus Mechanicus could use some help in their search for archeotech, and maybe a base to call home.  Assuming of course if the Inquisition will allow us to share our Fortress Monastery, maybe if they Inquisition is allowed an enclave to make sure we are indeed upholding Imperial Mandate.  What about all the Chapter members that were part of Deathwatch, maybe they would come to my Chapter to help bolster some numbers and hunt down their former brethren.

 

When you start going down the rabbit hole of questions, and coming up with answers you Chapter just starts forming. It’s a blast!

[Dracos]

59 minutes ago, Closet Skeleton said:

 

How much does any chapter know about Primarchs? Even most first founding chapters don't have accurate information about 10,000 years ago.

 

Space marines are literally brainwashed as part of their training, they don't have more accurate information than anyone else in the Imperium.

A few years ago that would all have been assumed as true but with the Lion and Bobby G back with other Primarchs on the way that’s changing rapidly. 
 

Cawl and even some of the Primaris had a life before the Heresy. A thousand thousand scraps of of what was lost will  eventually paint a picture. 
 

But I’ve never been one to buy into almost total Dark Age of lost technology tropes of a civilization that spans the galaxy. 

[Galron]

20 hours ago, Dracos said:

A few years ago that would all have been assumed as true but with the Lion and Bobby G back with other Primarchs on the way that’s changing rapidly. 
 

Cawl and even some of the Primaris had a life before the Heresy. A thousand thousand scraps of of what was lost will  eventually paint a picture. 
 

But I’ve never been one to buy into almost total Dark Age of lost technology tropes of a civilization that spans the galaxy. 

"Uncle Bobby G?" The raven guard sergeant asks as he sits on the primarch's lap in full armor, "Can you tell me a story about my daddy?" Sorry, its the first thing that came to mind when I read that.

[jaxom]

Reminds me how in Dawn of Fire the Imperial Fists eat up any praise that Guilliman gives when he says things like Dorn would have been proud of them. Meanwhile the Space Wolves are calling Guilliman a liar to his face and don't believe anything he says about Russ, assuming anything positive is Guilliman trying to finesse his way onto the Space Wolves good side. 

[Paladin777]

Haven't read the book, but considering how much of a... rude fellow Russ was I imagine that Bobby G was being entirely truthful!

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Haven't read the book, but considering how much of a... rude fellow Russ was I imagine that Bobby G was being entirely truthful!

It's actually kind of sad, because Guilliman is well aware of how the Wolves see him, but he feels bad about how he left things with Russ and wants to do right by his kids.

[CCE1981]

I loved the part in the book where Guilliman enters the Great Wolf Hall and commits the most egregious sin of kneeling.  The Wolves were so upset Guilliman showed them reverence.