3D Printing the Modern Age Recasting

[Halandaar]

Even if it's not a direct scan of a GW original, people producing their "own" 3d sculpts but which are 1:1 copies of GW's designs is pretty obviously copyright infringement / IP theft.

 

For example I'm pretty sure I saw an STL for a Norn Emissary a matter of days after the model was revealed, and still weeks before the product actually released. And we're not talking about something that looked vaguely like it, or was intended to be a workable proxy for it. It was designed as far as possible to be a 1:1 replica of the GW model down to the smallest detail. The fact that somebody sat and did that digital sculpting themselves doesn't change that they stole the design; is it fundamentally any different from the same person spending the same amount of time to hand-stitch their own replica of a Michael Kors handbag?

 

The only thing that seems to protect this activity is that the people producing the STLs aren't trying to convince you that it's a legit GW product. You're aware the whole time that what you're buying is a replica, not an original. Is that what distinguishes it from counterfeiting legally and why these things can stay up?

 

There are certainly grey areas, morally, and what each of us thinks is acceptable will vary pretty wildly. I personally think the Norn Emissary example above, of taking a brand new design and cloning it based on promotional photos before the product even releases, is outrageous. If you had this happen to you in your line of work, whatever it was, where somebody took what you'd been working on for months and then just completely copied every bit of it and then actively undermined your ability to benefit from your work, you would be beyond furious, but apparently because GW is a "bIg eViL cOrPoRaTiOn" this is deemed to be totally acceptable by some people. 

 

But this is not to say that I think every design based on GW IP is automatically morally indefensible; people recreating Tallarn Mukaali riders or Praetorian Guardsmen or Mordheim warbands or Battlefleet Gothic ships or whatever is a completely different thing. GW abandoned those products many years ago and aren't actively harmed by recreations of those things existing for people to use. Arguably Firstborn Space Marines are in this arena now, with GW having effectively abandoned MK7 in favour of Primaris and the Heresy-specific armour marks.

 

I guess legally there's no distinction, and certainly if GW are planning to release updated versions of any of this in the future they would have something to say about it, but for me there is absolutely a moral distinction between actively undermining their current work, and recreating things they left behind years ago. People knocking out a 1:1 of the new Imotekh should be pilloried. People resurrecting the Carnival of Chaos should be thanked.

 

There are of course other areas that are a bit wooly; I have a few Tortuga Bay MK7 and MK4 armour sets because I wanted classic designs at a Primaris scale, and that's something GW can't give me. I've also just obtained some 3d printed MK3 helmets in the old style for similar reasons; GW is abandoning this design in favour of the new one so I can't just buy from them. In these cases I've still bought the corresponding Firstborn kits for the weapons and heads and stuff, and the MK3 3d printed helmets are to go on GWs new MK3 plastics, so it hasn't cost GW anything although I can see why people would view this as hypocritical.

 

I think my viewpoint boils down to; if GW aren't offering you the official thing and people are prepared to provide a copy of that thing, that's okay. If GW are offering you the official thing and somebody is copying it just so you can have it for way cheaper, that's not okay.

[Bung]

15 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

Well maybe FW changed for the better along with that, because I see a lot to the contrary.
The excuse is always "well, it's cheaper"
And it's a Chinese knockoff.

 

I have seen pictures of print lines from the master for the mould on miniatures going sold to customers. 

Basically you can print better quality yourself with a modern 3d printer.

FW is still a hit or misx with their quality control.

[Dark Legionnare]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:02 AM, Bung said:

 

I have seen pictures of print lines from the master for the mould on miniatures going sold to customers. 

Basically you can print better quality yourself with a modern 3d printer.

FW is still a hit or misx with their quality control.

I've bought a few recast kits over the years for Krieg and Solar aux as repair kits for extra bits, tank parts, infantry, etc... The tanks in particular were night and day quality differences, with the recasts having perfect paneling/hull bits that didn't need heat-gun and c-clamp love.  It was disconcerting to say the least. I also had a Krieg commissar from FW who arrived in basically "puddle" form years back but still had the little inspection approved sticker in his bag. That was my favorite of all time. 

I now print all my repair parts instead of buy backup replacement kits from FW or recasters.

As a side note, I would hope FW customer service has gotten better. I had a big order back in 2018 that was missing a fair deal of bits and I had to jump through a lot of hoops with proof of purchase, receipts, etc... for about a week back and forth.  Meanwhile, the one time I've had a missing part from a recaster they sent a second full kit no questions asked. (And he offered store credit on the OG and the replacement).  In printing land, I don't have to worry about any of those. If I have a misprint, oh no, I'm down 10 cents of resin, let's go again and add another support or two.

[Orion]

I have a lot of experience with Krieg over the past few years and either FW have leveled up dramatically or people are trying to find a justification.

There's just obvious stuff like shrunken casts and slips where FW don't have splits in the mould that make it so recasts just seem kinda scuffed.
Like heads sliding in half scuffed.

 

That all said, even if there was some perfect recaster situation, it's still a nonstarter for me. Buy legit or don't buy.

 

[phandaal]

12 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

That all said, even if there was some perfect recaster situation, it's still a nonstarter for me. Buy legit or don't buy.

 

I think most people who do Krieg stuff without buying from GW are going for almost-not-quite Krieg 3rd party proxies. Much easier and faster to get your gas mask trench coat scifi troopers that way.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:33 PM, phandaal said:

 

Reminds me of the old "you wouldn't download a car, would you?" commercials back in the day.

The great irony with those ads was how cool they made crime look. Completely undermining their own message.

 

22 hours ago, Dark Legionnare said:

As a side note, I would hope FW customer service has gotten better. I had a big order back in 2018 that was missing a fair deal of bits and I had to jump through a lot of hoops with proof of purchase, receipts, etc... for about a week back and forth.  Meanwhile, the one time I've had a missing part from a recaster they sent a second full kit no questions asked. (And he offered store credit on the OG and the replacement).  In printing land, I don't have to worry about any of those. If I have a misprint, oh no, I'm down 10 cents of resin, let's go again and add another support or two.

My recent experiences with customer service have been great, they've replaced breakages no problem. WHat's annoying is that if they shipped blisters with some foam inside, like blisters used to have, they'd have less breakages in the first place to replace.
I ordered three sets of the White Scars Mk6 heads, and every single time they arrive with the top knot on the bare head snapped off. Same with AT conversion beamer nozzles. Every time FW replace them, but it's such an easy fix.

On the topic, I find the dichotomy between discussing recasts and near exact 3d prints bizarre. As soon as someone mentions the 'R' word in some places, (Certain discords and Facebook groups come to mind) the conversations are snuffed out, but the very next post will have some perfect 3d prints of yet to be released LI models, and noone bats an eyelid. They're both the same thing done by different methods, either they should both be verboten, or not.

[Evil Eye]

13 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Guess what. You're not a customer. Your opinion doesn't matter at all.

These people invariably WERE customers before GW's practices turned them away. That's the crux of the issue- if GW weren't as toxic an influence as they were, this conversation would like not even be happening.

 

Also "You're not spending money so your opinion doesn't matter" is a fallacy. I know I'd be spending more on GW and less on printer resin if they hadn't taken progressive steps to erode the things about 40K I like and replaced them with things I don't. I don't have to have spent money on a Lada to tell people it's a terrible, horrible, no good car they should avoid at all costs* and I don't have to be actively spending money on GW to tell people that the company is not a good influence on the wargaming hobby. I know GW seems to think "You Will Not Be Missed" is a good company motto to have rather than a statement on the callousness and cruelty of the universe, but come on.

 

 

 

*My poor mother had to drive one of those abominations when she first started learning to drive...

[Dark Legionnare]

1 hour ago, JayJapanB said:

I have a lot of experience with Krieg over the past few years and either FW have leveled up dramatically or people are trying to find a justification.

There's just obvious stuff like shrunken casts and slips where FW don't have splits in the mould that make it so recasts just seem kinda scuffed.
Like heads sliding in half scuffed.

 

That all said, even if there was some perfect recaster situation, it's still a nonstarter for me. Buy legit or don't buy.

 

I've talked with another guy on here, Jud Cortel or such I believe his name was; he was doing Krieg as well.  When I bought all my stuff FROM FW in 2018 (which is also the order I was missing lots of command squad bits from and many other things) he was doing his only a year or two later, 2019-2020 I think. His quality was MUCH better than the batches I got all my stock from.  Especially his basilisk batteries, tanks, etc...

How bad mine were was what made me buy recasters for repair parts. I was not about to pay an arm and a leg again for may-never-use-repair-bits stuff to be as messed up as the batch I got.  I'm glad you've had much better luck than me apparently.
  

1 hour ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

My recent experiences with customer service have been great, they've replaced breakages no problem. WHat's annoying is that if they shipped blisters with some foam inside, like blisters used to have, they'd have less breakages in the first place to replace.
I ordered three sets of the White Scars Mk6 heads, and every single time they arrive with the top knot on the bare head snapped off. Same with AT conversion beamer nozzles. Every time FW replace them, but it's such an easy fix.

On the topic, I find the dichotomy between discussing recasts and near exact 3d prints bizarre. As soon as someone mentions the 'R' word in some places, (Certain discords and Facebook groups come to mind) the conversations are snuffed out, but the very next post will have some perfect 3d prints of yet to be released LI models, and noone bats an eyelid. They're both the same thing done by different methods, either they should both be verboten, or not.

That's good to hear.  I was hunting down receipts, PoP's, etc... for, like, every other kit from my order.  I have no idea why they were so anal. I would've thought I was the only recent order that bought exactly 100+ infantry, 7 tanks, macharius, etc, etc... and proving I was that order once would've been enough.

In subsequent orders for my Luna Wolves I had no issues whatsoever and never had to contact customer service, so I do have a limited time-frame of engaging with them for sure.

  

22 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

These people invariably WERE customers before GW's practices turned them away. That's the crux of the issue- if GW weren't as toxic an influence as they were, this conversation would like not even be happening.

 

Also "You're not spending money so your opinion doesn't matter" is a fallacy. I know I'd be spending more on GW and less on printer resin if they hadn't taken progressive steps to erode the things about 40K I like and replaced them with things I don't. I don't have to have spent money on a Lada to tell people it's a terrible, horrible, no good car they should avoid at all costs* and I don't have to be actively spending money on GW to tell people that the company is not a good influence on the wargaming hobby. I know GW seems to think "You Will Not Be Missed" is a good company motto to have rather than a statement on the callousness and cruelty of the universe, but come on.

 

 

 

*My poor mother had to drive one of those abominations when she first started learning to drive...

What made me originally buy a printer was when I was doing my Luna wolves projects FW was sold out, or straight up didn't have, any of the 30K special weapons kits for sale. Meltaguns, plasma, etc... They were out of stock (or completely MIA from the store) for months, so I finally said F- it and bought a printer to do all my meltas, plasma, volkite, etc... They literally didn't have the ability to facilitate my want to give them my money.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Dark Legionnare

[GreenScorpion]

To be honest whether it is designing direct copies by hand, scanning existing stuff or casting a copy in a more traditional way is wrong when done for commercial reasons, whether it is a model from GW or someone else (what you do in the confines of your own home with models is fine, as long as you are not selling that stuff afterwards).

 

Ultimately the reason why there are a lot of direct copies or extremely similar designs in third party sellers or stl designers is because that is what a significant portion of the market desires. I recall seeing many discussions on Imperial Guard equivalents from 3rd party manufacturers (including kickstarters from different companies or announcements of kits) which revolved mostly around the fact that x, y or z feature/weapon needed to be closer to 40k since the particular customer wanted to use them for IG proxies.

While obviously many of the 3rd party manufacturers are doing kits in resin or HIPS to be used as proxies, that doesn't mean they need to look the same and a plasma gun is still a plasma gun even if it looks slightly different from a GW one (as long as they are different from a flamer, you could use both in proxy models without complaints in my opinion).

 

For stuff that are exact GW copies I understand when the company tries to shutdown the designers, but for things that GW borrowed from historical soldiers/vehicles there is not really something that GW should complain about. If I make an entire force of 18th-19th century british soldiers in a futuristic setting with plasma gun equivalents and other advanced weapons I don't think GW has the right to come and say I am copying their praetorian IG regiments for example.

 

For derivative stuff there is a bit of a grey area, making something inspired by x is not necessarily an issue and what is considered illegal in that regard will vary greatly from country to country, so as long as the designs is inspired by x and can be used as a proxy of x but it is not designed to be a copy of x than it should mostly be fine. If I make my own version of insectoid aliens to be used as tyranids, I might need to make some of them serpentine to make them clear proxies for a serpentine tyranid, but as long as the rest of the design is based on the theme and not GW's interpretation then it should be fine in my opinion.

[sarabando]

GW steals IP from all over scifi, has gone to court and been told multiple times that the shape of their minis isnt protected only the copywritten names.

 

3d printers take inspiration from GW styles and make their own minis. 

 

GW shills "tHaTS ThEfTs!" 

 

GW made this bed they can lie in it. 

[phandaal]

32 minutes ago, sarabando said:

GW steals IP from all over scifi, has gone to court and been told multiple times that the shape of their minis isnt protected only the copywritten names.

 

3d printers take inspiration from GW styles and make their own minis. 

 

GW shills "tHaTS ThEfTs!" 

 

GW made this bed they can lie in it. 

 

You know what is funny, nobody really cared that GW stuff was so derivative until GW started claiming they owned all of the concepts.

 

People liked their Dune, Starship Troopers, Elric, LotR, D&D, etc mashup game. Everyone knew what the references were and just enjoyed it for what it was, and GW made a :cuss:load of money giving people what they wanted.

[Noserenda]

Yeah sci-fi is essentially an IP theft orobouros, my main problem with recasters are their methods, something that's not an issue with 3d printing unless my buddies are hiding a sweatshop somewhere lol

[Evil Eye]

27 minutes ago, phandaal said:

 

You know what is funny, nobody really cared that GW stuff was so derivative until GW started claiming they owned all of the concepts.

 

People liked their Dune, Starship Troopers, Elric, LotR, D&D, etc mashup game. Everyone knew what the references were and just enjoyed it for what it was, and GW made a :cuss:load of money giving people what they wanted.

This is exactly it. GW made a great setting by mashing up their favourite things in an era when that was allowed, then helped usher in the advent of laws to prevent people doing the same thing so they could be king forever. It's hypocritical and frankly dickish. But then almost all the old guard of GW are long gone, so...

[Guest]

I am going to summon up how I feel these days...

 

It is my hobby I will do what I want, if that means printing 50 Conkys I will, if it means buying lots of HH stuff from GW I will. 

[Domhnall]

There is a difference between "taking inspiration" and IP theft. GW has created the setting by taking inspiration from other settings, which is a pretty common thing for everything from Miniatures to books to films. Without inspiration very few good new ideas come about. 

I'm sure the old Star Craft game was heavily inspired by 40k (legend has it it was a licenced tie in that fell through), and came full circle when the suiting up video was launched. 

Copying something straight or passing your 'thing' as something else and making money off it is not OK. 

I could sculpt up a full chapter of marines, print them off, paint, and play away to my hearts content, which isn't too different from the days of kit bashing etc. Selling those sculpt files is when things start to get legally iffy. 

 

I'm personally OK if you sculpt your own stuff for printing, I'm OK with 3rd party producers selling unique models inspired by GW or other game systems (I in fact have some).

I'm not OK with straight up copies or 'recasts' being sold. 

But that is just my personal opinion, and others can have their personal choices. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

9 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

These people invariably WERE customers before GW's practices turned them away. That's the crux of the issue- if GW weren't as toxic an influence as they were, this conversation would like not even be happening.

 

Also "You're not spending money so your opinion doesn't matter" is a fallacy. I know I'd be spending more on GW and less on printer resin if they hadn't taken progressive steps to erode the things about 40K I like and replaced them with things I don't. I don't have to have spent money on a Lada to tell people it's a terrible, horrible, no good car they should avoid at all costs* and I don't have to be actively spending money on GW to tell people that the company is not a good influence on the wargaming hobby. I know GW seems to think "You Will Not Be Missed" is a good company motto to have rather than a statement on the callousness and cruelty of the universe, but come on.

 

 

 

*My poor mother had to drive one of those abominations when she first started learning to drive...

I'll say to you what I said to people who think pirating video games is okay because "stick it to the big bad corporation"

 

You either pay for the product, or you go without. If you want the product, pay for it. If you don't, you say a fond farewell and move on with your life. If you use pirated material, you don't have the moral high ground just because the victim is a company. You are wrong, and your opinion on GW's business practices is invalid.

[ThePenitentOne]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I'll say to you what I said to people who think pirating video games is okay because "stick it to the big bad corporation"

 

You either pay for the product, or you go without. If you want the product, pay for it. If you don't, you say a fond farewell and move on with your life. If you use pirated material, you don't have the moral high ground just because the victim is a company. You are wrong, and your opinion on GW's business practices is invalid.

Just curious Cpt , how do you feel about Halandaar's take that it's okay to print it if GW no longer sells it?

 

I know that Kroot are gonna get some goodness when the Tau dex drops, but I think we'll just get a Shaper, Hounds and Krootox.

 

If so, I'd be down for printed Knarloc Riders and Greater Knarlocs... But only because I couldn't get them from GW.  

[MegaVolt87]

1 hour ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I'll say to you what I said to people who think pirating video games is okay because "stick it to the big bad corporation"

 

You either pay for the product, or you go without. If you want the product, pay for it. If you don't, you say a fond farewell and move on with your life. If you use pirated material, you don't have the moral high ground just because the victim is a company. You are wrong, and your opinion on GW's business practices is invalid.

 

The piracy angle of 3D printing in the hobby is an interesting one. In the videogame/ media spheres, it's common to have pirates transition to buying the actual content. For our hobby it's the reverse, participants start with official product and move to piracy becoming very militant with understandable reasons.

 

A good example is SoH in HH. 1:1 copies of upscaled reavers and justarian. If there is a gap in the range or existing product is no longer keeping up with the times, the community will fix it themselves. Ditto for OOP kits people still wish to use via legends/ expanded units. GW was never going to make any loss on OOP models, though lost sales of existing kits with re-scaled ones, the people printing those were never going to buy the official ones due to the outdated scale. GW offering an answer to a gap like the laughable recent resin melee FW upgrades is of course going to prompt piracy. GW is not blameless in the rise of 3D printed piracy of its miniatures. I don't believe they have done enough or move fast enough to mitigate the problem via range updates + releases. Hard to support GW when product is OOP or the answer is a poor product release/ lack of a refresh on existing product. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

I recognise the OOP issue. If it's not available through official channels, then that's GW saying they don't want your money. It is also a way of preserving the past of the hobby. My hard and fast stance on what is hobby piracy is thus:

• 3d printing/downloading an officially available model kit or book (out of stock is not an excuse)

Slow releases are the fault of GW/FW. I cannot dispute that because I wholeheartedly agree that it is. Part of me wants to say 3d printing upgrades for official models is okay, but I also feel that would weaken my anti-piracy stance so I must champion buying official products where they are available.

[Bung]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

You either pay for the product, or you go without. If you want the product, pay for it. If you don't, you say a fond farewell and move on with your life. If you use pirated material, you don't have the moral high ground just because the victim is a company. You are wrong, and your opinion on GW's business practices is invalid.

 

If i pay the premium prices of GW products i expect flawless Models and a premium customer service / support which GW doesnt deliver.

Especially FW which quality control is Not even mediocore.

 

Another point following your logic, if you condemn printing 3d printed upgrades you should also condemn third party bits from companies like Kromlech, its no difference or printing your own Decals.

 

Should i tell you something, third Party upgrades are a thing for decades in scale modelling and railway modelling.

As long as GW claims to be a scale modell company they have to live with that.

[Cpt_Reaper]

4 minutes ago, Bung said:

If i pay the premium prices of GW products i expect flawless Models and a premium customer service / support which GW doesnt deliver.

Especially FW which quality control is Not even mediocore.

 

Yes, you should receive the product you paid for. if you didn't, that doesn't them mean you pirate the following product. GW/FW lose you as a customer for their poor product. Now, if you go an 3d print GW products and continue to use the product then you've become the one at fault.

 

6 minutes ago, Bung said:

Another point following your logic, if you condemn printing 3d printed upgrades you should also condemn third party bits from companies like Kromlech, its no difference or printing your own Decals.

 

Should i tell you something, third Party upgrades are a thing for decades in scale modelling and railway modelling.

As long as GW claims to be a scale modell company they have to live with that.

Historically, 3rd party bits manufacturers produced parts that GW could not/would not themselves produce. This is analogous to the recreation of OOP items. For whatever reason GW decided that the cost involved in making those products did not justify the profit. When 3rd party manufacturers started making models and parts available from GW proper they got smacked down, and rightly so.

 

So I do condemn the creation of 3rd party parts that GW themselves makes. Because it is borderline piracy, if not piracy outright. And my stance remains: if you pirate, you're wrong.

[Orion]

11 minutes ago, Bung said:

If i pay the premium prices of GW products i expect flawless Models and a premium customer service / support which GW doesnt deliver.

Especially FW which quality control is Not even mediocore.

Based on what? I feel like with resin you could easily never be happy. It's not plastic. There are going to be more issues. Get over it. Use support when you need it. 
 

I've only had to deal with customer support once.

They sent out replacements within the day. Before they even replied to my email.

Full kits for mostly minor stuff. The only thing I had a real issue was a mispack on a recoil spade (two left feet).
I mentioned a lasgun broken in transit, and a casting issue on a single engineer.

 

That's 4 blisters and 2 boxed sets to replace 3 parts!

 

Issues? Sure, but the amount of extra stuff they give out for minor problems is support (not QC) going above and beyond.
And this has been the only time I've had issues, in a fairly large collection.

 

 

Meanwhile recasters are dishing out garbage like this and you people praise them. But I'm sure your recaster is better, right?

 

I'm tired of people parroting the same thing again and again, when none of you have bought anything from them in a decade or more.

If you don't want to buy it then just don't. 

[crimsondave]

6 hours ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I am going to summon up how I feel these days...

 

It is my hobby I will do what I want, if that means printing 50 Conkys I will, if it means buying lots of HH stuff from GW I will. 

 

 

I couldn’t have said it any better myself, brother.

[phandaal]

40 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

Meanwhile recasters are dishing out garbage like this and you people praise them. But I'm sure your recaster is better, right?

 

Don't see anyone praising recasters here. Most people are pretty ambivalent about the whole thing, some people think GW deserves to have their stuff pirated (still not praising recasters), and some people seem to be opposed to the practice on a religious level.

 

I can almost see the fire and brimstone coming for me for those 3rd party Ironkin heads I bought a while back. Real wrath-of-God type stuff!

 

To what I think is the original point of the post though, seems like most people are in agreement that the people buying recasts and 3rd party copies in bulk are not buying the product from the IP holder in the first place. So they would probably not be contributing to a decline in sales.

[The Unseen]

As others have stated and I will reiterate, there is a subgroup of the supposed customer base that won't buy anything anyway. But the larger subgroup for specifically GW that buys 3d printed or recast minis do so specifically as a reaction to GW's failures. Go look at other wargames, even the big ones, and either alternative models are accepted outright, or the market for them just isn't that big anyway. Can you get just about any Battletech mini you want 3d printed? Sure, but why would you bother doing that when they cost about the same as buying them from Catalyst anyway for similar quality? A Lance box is $25 USD, getting a single mech 3d printed most places will run you about $6-8. And the starter boxes are even better value, though I haven't actually sat down and the math for them.

 

 

So right now the only stuff thats commonly 3d printed are some of the OOP units that are only available in the 2nd hand market as pewter. And that will probably shrink once the latest kickstarter campaign starts shipping, because it contains a bunch of tanks. Or Bolt Action; you can use anybodies ww2 minis, but Warlord makes a good product for a reasonable price, and so *most* of the people I've seen just buy their stuff, because its worth the money they charge, and only hit up other companies or 3d print services when there's a particular unit/army that isn't well covered by Warlord, which just means if Warlord wants that money they should make more models.

 

 

So in my opinion, printing or recasting any OOP or forever out of stock items is perfectly legitimate, and overall good for the hobby, if GW doesn't want to keep the models for sale, finding an alternative is sort of necessary. Same with rescaled miniatures, the updated MK6 came out over a year ago, and we STILL don't have any troop choices other than tactical marines in the upscaled plastic. If you want Breachers, Despoilers, or Assault Marines prepare to pay through the nose, to get (potentially bad) resin products that don't match the new plastics. The despoiler upgrade arms were a literal slap to the face, you get walking marines with the same handful of resin weapon/pistol arms, no special melee weapons, and it almost DOUBLES the price of the base squad. If GW doesn't care to fill the niche of their own bloody games troop units with good products, people finding other people who will do so isn't just unexpected, it should be obvious.