3D Printing the Modern Age Recasting

[Halandaar]

7 minutes ago, sarabando said:

my take is very simple its a service issue, i got a box of new zerkers from china for £18 they are £40 at GW the quality difference is nil.

 

Okay quick reminder that the people in China didn't have to hand over UK VAT on the sale, or pay wages, pension and UK NI contributions to concept artists and miniature designers to design the product, nor graphic designers to produce assembly guides and packaging, nor staff painters, photographers and web designers to market it, nor the HR, Finance, IT, Facilites, Admin and Catering staff who support the aforementioned creative people, nor pay for the PCs and software licenses for all those people, nor pay UK business rates on the premises that houses all those staff. They simply had to get some people to dunk a sprue in some silicone and pour some resin. Are you really confused as to why one is cheaper than the other?

 

The product they are selling you, and the demand for that product, would not exist without all the people mentioned above and no doubt countless others I have neglected to mention. 

[Marshal Rohr]

There’s nothing wrong with making custom models or parts for personal use, and often that is the only way you will ever get your models to look exactly like you want them to look - which is a major part of the non-competitive hobby scene. 
 

That being said, monstrosities like the Lego dreadnaught above are too common and it is killing any reasons to participate in social media hobbying. It doesn’t matter how well you painted or how nice your background is, when you drop one of those Artel W disasterpieces I’m out. You do you, but you aren’t doing the same hobby as me. 
 

 

There is a great example of really nice prints that would almost fit exactly with normal guard models from the Makers Cult called Universal Guard and they look great, until you look at their lasguns and other weapons. They’re clean and match GW house style, until the weapons. That little detail doesn’t seem like a big deal and isn’t for many, but it is for me and is a great illustration of how useless a lot of this discussion is. 
 

I will say if you are buying 3D prints because you can’t afford GW models, it’s the same as arguing with idiots on Reddit who just pirate the black library novels and don’t have models. You’re not actually part of my hobby and it doesn’t matter what you think about the prices or lore or GW as a company. It’s like a football fan getting pissed the First Baseman doesn’t tackle the runner. Entirely different game. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Marshal Rohr

[phandaal]

10 minutes ago, Xenith said:

Snip

 

These are valid points to keep in mind. However, people are generally just looking at marginal value for themselves when making a purchase. If $20 is a ripoff, $10 may not be a ripoff to them, even if the person making the $10 sale has a higher margin.

 

It is hard to make any kind of blanket statements though. There are so many different types of people engaging with these printed/recast models (and even then there is a big difference between the two). It is not all a bunch of nefarious villains sinning against the laws of morality, and it is not a bunch of saints paving their way to the pearly gates with a life of 3D printing.

 

Mainly it is just normal people engaging with it to a greater or lesser degree for a million different reasons.

[Cpt_Reaper]

43 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

But then I am not pretending to be holier than thou.

 

I am kindly asking you to knock it off with calling my stance on this subject "holier than thou". My stance is simply based on right and wrong. I view piracy as wrong. Not "okay in certain situations", wrong in all of them. Yes, I have made the mistake of committing piracy in the past. I will admit that freely as to deny it is disingenuous.

 

Halandaar made a most excellent point of the difference between piracy and inspiration. It has also been said multiple times that preserving out of production kits is also a worthy cause. But what I cannot stand is the idea that piracy is ever good or right, and those that support said view are wrong, plain and simple.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:02 AM, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

I am kindly asking you to knock it off with calling my stance on this subject "holier than thou". My stance is simply based on right and wrong. I view piracy as wrong. Not "okay in certain situations", wrong in all of them. Yes, I have made the mistake of committing piracy in the past. I will admit that freely as to deny it is disingenuous.

 

Halandaar made a most excellent point of the difference between piracy and inspiration. It has also been said multiple times that preserving out of production kits is also a worthy cause. But what I cannot stand is the idea that piracy is ever good or right, and those that support said view are wrong, plain and simple.

 

By the very stance you have made, preserving OOP kits is still piracy.  It's all or nothing. 

[Cpt_Reaper]

9 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

By the very stance you have made, preserving OOP kits is still piracy.  It's all or nothing.  

 

No, it's not. What, you think you are going to win here? To have me declare "piracy is okay because big bag GW is big and bad!" No, you only prove you have no integrity, and to continue this argument means I will only face down bad faith "counters" and a constant moving of the goal posts.

 

Don't be a pirate. Don't steal. 

[Brother Captain Arkley]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:21 AM, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

No, it's not. What, you think you are going to win here? To have me declare "piracy is okay because big bag GW is big and bad!" No, you only prove you have no integrity, and to continue this argument means I will only face down bad faith "counters" and a constant moving of the goal posts.

 

Don't be a pirate. Don't steal. 

 

Not trying to win anything.

 

I do not think GW are the big bad, I do however question them more these days.

 

And the fact you not say I have no integrity and I am arguing in bad faith? What goalpost have changed? 

 

By your own damned words you said piracy is bad I support your right to that stance, but by your own stance stuff thats OOP is still piracy, and you are moving the very goalposts you accuse me of moving? 

[Special Officer Doofy]

25 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I view piracy as wrong. Not "okay in certain situations", wrong in all of them.

 

19 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

By the very stance you have made, preserving OOP kits is still piracy.  It's all or nothing.  

 

7 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

No, it's not. What, you think you are going to win here? To have me declare "piracy is okay because big bag GW is big and bad!" No, you only prove you have no integrity, and to continue this argument means I will only face down bad faith "counters" and a constant moving of the goal posts.

 

Dude you're the one moving the goal posts...

[Sword Brother Adelard]

The OOP aspect does demonstrate the moral complexities here. Is it still theft if the product being copied has been effectively abandoned? In English law for instance, if property has genuinely been abandoned, you cannot be guilty of stealing it. Is that morally right? it probably depends on the circumstances? 

Personally, where I get really wound up by FW is in the case of AT Scale Armigers. Here's why:

In a Knight Household list, every knight in a banner must be armed identically. Therefore, in order to run the minimum legal banner I need 3 armigers with the same armament, say 3 warglaives for instance.
The kit FW sells has 3 armigers, two warglaives, 1 helverin. So, in order to field a legal unit of warglaives, I need two kits, But even then. I now have two helverins, so need a third kit to run a minimum size unit of Helverins. The kit is £40 for 3 models which are about 30mm tall, and fit on a 25mm base. Thus making a MSU of armiger helverins the most expensive unit in Adeptus Titanicus!

Meanwhile, I have it on good authority, that our friends in the East will sell you three armigers for a very reasonable price, and provide enough arms to build those three all as either warglaives, OR helverins. It's really hard to justify the FW cost, irrespective of all of the other costs FW will need to make back. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Sword Brother Adelard

[Cpt_Reaper]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:29 AM, Special Officer Doofy said:

Dude you're the one moving the goal posts...

 

No, I am not. I have consistently said piracy is wrong. Preserving OOP kits is not piracy, as a company failing to uphold their copyright by producing their copyrighted material will lose it and lose rights to enforce it. I know that, you know that. Everyone knows that. So I can say that all piracy is wrong. All or nothing, as Arkley stated. Just not your all or nothing. The right one.

 

Please, keep defending theft. Change my goal posts, state I have to abide by your rules you keep adding to my stance. It doesn't change the fact piracy is theft. It doesn't change what is, and isn't piracy.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

On 10/17/2023 at 9:39 AM, Sword Brother Adelard said:

The OOP aspect does demonstrate the moral complexities here. Is it still theft if the product being copied has been effectively abandoned? In English law for instance, if property has genuinely been abandoned, you cannot be guilty of stealing it? Is that morally right? it probably depends on the circumstances? 

Personally, where I get really wound up by FW is in the case of AT Scale Armigers. Here's why:

In a Knight Household list, every knight in a banner must be armed identically. Therefore, in order to run the minimum legal banner I need 3 armigers with the same armament, say 3 warglaives for instance.
The kit FW sells has 3 armigers, two warglaives, 1 helverin. So, in order to field a legal unit of warglaives, I need two kits, But even then. I now have two helverins, so need a third kit to run a minimum size unit of Helverins. The kit is £40 for 3 models which are about 30mm tall, and fit on a 25mm base. Thus making a MSU of armiger helverins the most expensive unit in Adeptus Titanicus!

Meanwhile, I have it on good authority, that our friends in the East will sell you three armigers for a very reasonable price, and provide enough arms to build those three all as either warglaives, OR helverins. It's really hard to justify the FW cost, irrespective of all of the other costs FW will need to make back. 

 

See for me and I am guessing you will agree this is a service issue, and it seems that GW are creating a similar issue with the new Epic.

 

On 10/17/2023 at 9:39 AM, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

No, I am not. I have consistently said piracy is wrong. Preserving OOP kits is not piracy, as a company failing to uphold their copyright by producing their copyrighted material will lose it and lose rights to enforce it. I know that, you know that. Everyone knows that. So I can say that all piracy is wrong. All or nothing, as Arkley stated. Just not your all or nothing. The right one.

 

 

IT IS PIRACY LOL...

Edited October 18, 2023 by Tyriks
Do not insult others

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Just now, Brother Captain Arkley said:

See for me and I am guessing you will agree this is a service issue, and it seems that GW are creating a similar issue with the new Epic.

The Armiger problem is absolutely a service issue. It boggles the mind. You can say similar for the fact they don't provide a turntable for the warbringer volcano cannon, meaning your choices are to buy a whole warbringer, a copycat 3D print turntable from a third party like Battlebling, or, go East and they sell you a volcano WITH a turntable.

FW Pricing is just mad! Conversely, when the Dire Wolf Titan was released, it was less than an AT Acastus Asterius, and the same price as three AT armigers, it was comparatively a steal and I bought two on pre-order!

[Brother Captain Arkley]

On 10/17/2023 at 8:42 AM, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

First of all, the name calling is beyond childish. Secondly, it's piracy. It is not something lost to the OOP bins like the variant Guard regiments or a load of FW vehicles, it has been replaced by an updated officially available product.

 

Yeah well you have already accused me of having no integrity or acting in bad faith so you will have to forgive me for not exactly being 100% civil.

 

That kit is now OOP you can't buy it...  To purchase it is piracy no ifs or buts. 

 

BY YOUR OWN WORDS!!!!.

[Halandaar]

8 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

No, it's not. What, you think you are going to win here? To have me declare "piracy is okay because big bag GW is big and bad!" No, you only prove you have no integrity, and to continue this argument means I will only face down bad faith "counters" and a constant moving of the goal posts.

 

Don't be a pirate. Don't steal. 

 

I dunno, kind of agree with @Brother Captain Arkley here; the fact that GW aren't actively selling the product any more and therefore the existence of an STL copy doesn't harm their ability to sell it themselves doesn't change the fact that it is still their design being copied.

 

My personal stance is that this is okay. I mean if GW don't want to sell a Halfling Hot-Pot anymore then who is harmed by a "Stunty Stew-Slingshot" STL, apart from eBay resellers trying to get £50 for an original? But I accept that people may view that as hypocritical.

[Bung]

5 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

See for me and I am guessing you will agree this is a service issue, and it seems that GW are creating a similar issue with the new Epic.

 

An interesting aspect of the new Epic (and maybe BFG if its ever done again) is that print Files for those Game already exist for some years. 

Now i want to see how GW legal handles that 

[Cpt_Reaper]

1 minute ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Yeah well you have already accused me of having no integrity or acting in bad faith so you will have to forgive me for not exactly being 100% civil.

 

That kit is now OOP you can't buy it...  To purchase it is piracy no ifs or buts. 

I said exactly that. That particular kit, being Space Marine Terminators, have been replaced by an in production version. Thus piracy and not preserving something that has no available equivalent.

 

I was wrong. You aren't moving the goal posts and inserting clauses into my statements. You aren't even reading my statements. You just see a shill defending GW because you are upset at GW for entirely understandable reasons, and not my point that piracy is theft, and I will not condone it.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

Just now, Halandaar said:

 

I dunno, kind of agree with @Brother Captain Arkley here; the fact that GW aren't actively selling the product any more and therefore the existence of an STL copy doesn't harm their ability to sell it themselves doesn't change the fact that it is still their design being copied.

 

My personal stance is that this is okay. I mean if GW don't want to sell a Halfling Hot-Pot anymore then who is harmed by a "Stunty Stew-Slingshot" STL, apart from eBay resellers trying to get £50 for an original? But I accept that people may view that as hypocritical.

 

We are all hypocrites with something, nobody is that pious :P.

 

For me GW does not offer me everything I want for my primaris. 3d Printing solves it...

 

Is it a moral grey area? 100%. But I am not taking some high and mighty stance, I don't buy from sites like the screenshot I added but I am not going to preach to someone not to. I am not the moral authority and I do not decide how people spend their limited hobby wing wangs.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

We can probably calm this down a bit here chaps. 

This whole area is tricky, both legally and morally, it's hard to draw the lines in the sand with our own consciences, let alone judge where others place those lines.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

6 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

I said exactly that. That particular kit, being Space Marine Terminators, have been replaced by an in production version. Thus piracy and not preserving something that has no available equivalent.

 

I was wrong. You aren't moving the goal posts and inserting clauses into my statements. You aren't even reading my statements. You just see a shill defending GW because you are upset at GW for entirely understandable reasons, and not my point that piracy is theft, and I will not condone it.

 

@Halandaar Has made his points very clear and to the point, I have not accused him of anything. And I have not accused you of being a shill...

 

I have read your statements, and countered your points. 

 

Your stance all piracy is bad. (I would say its a bit hypocritical) OOP stuff reproduced and sold by any means other than GW is piracy its not hard to grasp.

 

4 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

We can probably calm this down a bit here chaps. 

This whole area is tricky, both legally and morally, it's hard to draw the lines in the sand with our own consciences, let alone judge where others place those lines.

 

I am of the opinion you wanna buy an army from FORGEworld? Go for it, its your money. I am just annoyed by the hypocrisy. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 minutes ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

No, I am not. I have consistently said piracy is wrong. Preserving OOP kits is not piracy, as a company failing to uphold their copyright by producing their copyrighted material will lose it and lose rights to enforce it. I know that, you know that. Everyone knows that. So I can say that all piracy is wrong. All or nothing, as Arkley stated. Just not your all or nothing. The right one.

 

Please, keep defending theft. Change my goal posts, state I have to abide by your rules you keep adding to my stance. It doesn't change the fact piracy is theft. It doesn't change what is, and isn't piracy.

 

 

 

Hey fake internet lawyer, why don't you Google copyright laws. They don't end the minute the creative work goes out of production. You have no idea what my all or nothing is. That was my first post in this thread. I just noticed you're a huge hypocrite accusing others of doing what you are doing.

 

I never have and never will buy recast. But I also don't care what people on the internet think, specially on toy soldier forums.

[Jarl Caldersson]

As much as I hate the fact GW doesn't produce some of my favorite upgrades anymore, I have to think that copyright does extend for a few years beyond their last production date. It's why we see horrible remakes of movies, so the company can keep copyright. I am not versed enough to say of this is true, or how long something is OOP before the company loses copyright. This may be why GW does print-on-demand at times, so they can keep the copyright. If none sale they can say "well, we tried to make more, but no one bought them. So we keep the copyright.

[Brother Captain Arkley]

7 minutes ago, Jarl Caldersson said:

As much as I hate the fact GW doesn't produce some of my favorite upgrades anymore, I have to think that copyright does extend for a few years beyond their last production date. It's why we see horrible remakes of movies, so the company can keep copyright. I am not versed enough to say of this is true, or how long something is OOP before the company loses copyright. This may be why GW does print-on-demand at times, so they can keep the copyright. If none sale they can say "well, we tried to make more, but no one bought them. So we keep the copyright.

 

Thats the crux of it all, piracy is piracy regardless, take this weeks preview... A certain game is bringing back kits that have not been sold in a good few years.

 

Is piracy wrong? Sure, for me its not about sticking it to GW, a big part for me now is like I said to Adelard a service issue, I really dislike how much lack of options we have, Assault Inter Jumpy bois can't have a Thunder Hammer because not in box.

 

GW do not offer me all that I want, and if that means having to resort to 3d printing then that's a bridge I am willing to cross.

 

 

GW are never going to provide me the Ultramarines 4th Company banner, outside of a OOP transfer sheet.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Sword Brother Adelard said:

We can probably calm this down a bit here chaps. 

This whole area is tricky, both legally and morally, it's hard to draw the lines in the sand with our own consciences, let alone judge where others place those lines.

 

I will share a recent experience of my own. Last weekend I had a game with someone at the local store. His models were some GW Fire Warriors and a bunch of 3D prints from Pipermakes. The prints were obviously not Tau but close enough that you knew what they represented. Before we started playing, he showed me some pictures of the Valor Korps models he was printing up.

 

My own models were all 40k Votann except for one squad of 3D printed Clockwork Ancestors from Tablehammer with 3D printed Ironkin heads.

 

My opponent was great. Enthusiastic, engaged, just having fun with the game regardless of where the dice went. Obviously a big fan of mini wargaming.

 

After the game was over we talked about models, rules, and color scheme for a bit and then he went over and bought some Imperial Guard tanks (to go with the Valor Korps he was printing), and I went and bought a couple of paint pots. Then he left for his evening shift job and I went and spent some time with my family.

 

Are either of us engaging in piracy, or harming Games Workshop somehow? Are we part of the hobby? If so, how much and to what extent?

 

More importantly, in the context of having a good time playing a game with a fellow wargaming enthusiast, do we even care?

[Bung]

7 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

Thats the crux of it all, pir

GW do not offer me all that I want, and if that means having to resort to 3d printing then that's a bridge I am willing to cross.

 

 

GW are never going to provide me the Ultramarines 4th Company banner, outside of a OOP transfer sheet.

 

 

Getting the bits you want was Always an issue with GW for decades and why there are Tutorials out there to help people with Green Stuff or Blue Stuff moulds to copy them at home. 

Same goes for third party Upgrades, GW doesnt sell moulded Shoulderpads for every chapter, but that vendor may have something that fits.

There is even an english company selling etched brass with some chapter Symbols 

(Something you could do at Home too).

 

All that stuff is there for over a decade and accepted practise in scale modelling and even was with Games Workshop.

 

But now with a 3d printer its piracy when i print some upgrade parts for my armies?

 

Thats some Logic i cant follow.

[Halandaar]

On 10/17/2023 at 9:14 AM, phandaal said:

Are either of us engaging in piracy, or harming Games Workshop somehow? Are we part of the hobby? If so, how much and to what extent?

 

More importantly, in the context of having a good time playing a game with a fellow wargaming enthusiast, do we even care?

 

Maybe, maybe, yes, plenty and obviously not respectively  

 

Flippancy aside, perfect example of the massive grey area all this operates in. Clockwork Ancestors feel very much like proxies intended to represent a unit from the 40K game, whereas Valor Korps definitely skirt the line of what I'd consider to be outright copying GWs design, although it's not as if trench coats and gas masks is particularly original in the first place. I think it's the lasguns make it feel a bit piratey to me, but that's still just a personal opinion.

 

Is it hurting GW? I mean arguably yes because if someone is printing Valor Korps then they aren't buying Krieg kits, but then would your opponent ever have bought GW/FWs Krieg kits anyway? If they wouldn't, then "not buying them and printing an alternative" and "not buying them and not doing a Guard army at all" are the same thing from GWs perspective. No harm done by printing Valor Korps in that instance, and if they are getting tank sales from somebody who otherwise wouldn't have done a Guard army at all then actually it's a net win for them. 

 

The number of people who are just outright wrong about something in this conversation is very very small, I accept that. Everybody has their own story and angle and there are shades of grey all over the place.