3D Printing the Modern Age Recasting

[Bung]

4 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

 

Yes, you should receive the product you paid for. if you didn't, that doesn't them mean you pirate the following product. GW/FW lose you as a customer for their poor product. Now, if you go an 3d print GW products and continue to use the product then you've become the one at fault.

 

 

 

The point is you dont recieve the product you paid for in my eyes, neither books or miniatures.

4 hours ago, JayJapanB said:

Based on what? I feel like with resin you could easily never be happy. It's not plastic. There are going to be more issues. Get over it. Use support when you need it. 
 

 

For both of you, this is a pictuer i found on the internet showing the problem for me:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fprint-lines-on-forgeworld-models-v0-cjsk5h7tfzpa1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D45fcccf7190027bcfc428b374215af63769057c4

 

If you look at the head you see the layer lines. This shouldnt be there for a miniature priced at 45€. For that price i can get a flawless display miniature.

Even if i would print that miniature myself i would have less layer lines. 

I have seen not so cheap reacasts that fixed such flaws of GW miniatures already.

 

The other problem with pirating GWs books, in my area its a similar problem with GWs quality control.

I live in a 3 country area Luxembourg, France and Germany currently in our Heresy group are 4 different rulebooks (French, Geerman, English Print and English ePub) and every version has  some slight differences, liek other weapon profiles etc.

The german Titanicus rulebook was so bad translated that GW traded the small Rulesbox without questioning.

 

As for recasting, i come from a scale modelling background and started in 1998 with 40 and it was rather common to recast bits and other stuff yoursself.

Shoulderpads, weapons etc. it was just cheaper for most people than buying 5+ boxes of GW stuff, a 3d printer makes that way easier and faster.
Need some SW Shoulderpads, i get you 50 before our game ends. 

 

Thats my view, with this, i can get everything to customize my miniatures without spending a fortune,

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

And my stance remains: if you pirate, you're wrong.

Have you ever pirated anything in your life?

[Orion]

9 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Have you ever pirated anything in your life?

There's a difference between doing something once, and trying to justify it being ok.

Ever drove over the speed limit? Boom! Speeding is now justified for all! 

 

54 minutes ago, Bung said:

 

The point is you dont recieve the product you paid for in my eyes, neither books or miniatures.

 

For both of you, this is a pictuer i found on the internet showing the problem for me:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Fprint-lines-on-forgeworld-models-v0-cjsk5h7tfzpa1.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D45fcccf7190027bcfc428b374215af63769057c4

 

If you look at the head you see the layer lines. This shouldnt be there for a miniature priced at 45€. For that price i can get a flawless display miniature.

Even if i would print that miniature myself i would have less layer lines. 

I have seen not so cheap reacasts that fixed such flaws of GW miniatures already.

 

The other problem with pirating GWs books, in my area its a similar problem with GWs quality control.

I live in a 3 country area Luxembourg, France and Germany currently in our Heresy group are 4 different rulebooks (French, Geerman, English Print and English ePub) and every version has  some slight differences, liek other weapon profiles etc.

The german Titanicus rulebook was so bad translated that GW traded the small Rulesbox without questioning.

 

As for recasting, i come from a scale modelling background and started in 1998 with 40 and it was rather common to recast bits and other stuff yoursself.

Shoulderpads, weapons etc. it was just cheaper for most people than buying 5+ boxes of GW stuff, a 3d printer makes that way easier and faster.
Need some SW Shoulderpads, i get you 50 before our game ends. 

 

Thats my view, with this, i can get everything to customize my miniatures without spending a fortune,

There is a difference between recasting parts yourself for personal use and advocating for the systematically displacing sales of whole product lines.

 

And there's a real easy way to get rid of those lines. Have a degraded recast, or just paint your damn miniature

 

Source

[Guest]

1 minute ago, JayJapanB said:

There's a difference between doing something once, and trying to justify it being ok.

Ever drove over the speed limit? Boom! Speeding is now justified for all! 

 

 

Once?!? hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha 

[Cpt_Reaper]

30 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Have you ever pirated anything in your life?

Yes. And I deeply regret doing so. I should not have then, and I will not now.

[Halandaar]

14 hours ago, sarabando said:

GW steals IP from all over scifi, has gone to court and been told multiple times that the shape of their minis isnt protected only the copywritten names.

 

3d printers take inspiration from GW styles and make their own minis. 

 

GW shills "tHaTS ThEfTs!" 

 

GW made this bed they can lie in it. 

 

This is a design which is inspired by GW Astartes:

 

This is a design which is copy of GW Astartes 

 

One is creative. One is theft. Learn to tell the difference and don't call people who can tell the difference shills.

[Guest]

On 10/17/2023 at 4:23 AM, Cpt_Reaper said:

Yes. And I deeply regret doing so. I should not have then, and I will not now.

Well using your own logic your opinion is about as invalid as you try to make others.

 

Am I or have I ever suggested supporting any of the FORGEworlds? No, I think for the most part the china recasts are never great, I will agree with @JayJapanB there. 

 

However with 3d printing I can do left handed bolt rifles carried in 2 hands without lots of conversion work

 

 

But some of you are taking a holier than thou attitude... I suggest you climb down from your Ivory Towers, You don't like "pirating" or "FORGEworlds" that's fine, and to a degree I agree.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

 

 

 

Where did you find that? Asking for a friend lol.

[Bung]

46 minutes ago, JayJapanB said:

There's a difference between doing something once, and trying to justify it being ok.

Ever drove over the speed limit? Boom! Speeding is now justified for all! 

 

There is a difference between recasting parts yourself for personal use and advocating for the systematically displacing sales of whole product lines.

 

And there's a real easy way to get rid of those lines. Have a degraded recast, or just paint your damn miniature

 

Source

 

And those lines would still be visible in my painting Style where miniatures are not drowned in Chaos Black Spray.

 

As said as someone that prints, those is isnt the quality i am willing to pay for.

For a Company that claims to make the best Fantasy Miniatures they have to be better if they want customers to pay Premium prices.

 

I would order from FW again If the quality would at least be the same Level i can get with my printer.

 

[frankendoodle65]

This is a debate I've had with a few friends recently and I feel like it's been quite apparent with the new Tyranids. 

Just days after the previews of new models, identical 3d printed versions were all over Instagram, Facebook, Reddit etc. and being celebrated by the community - "oh that's awesome, where can I get the STL?" - just seems utterly shameless to me. Is it driven by impatience or some sort of entitlement? 

No idea, but it seems to me that if this keeps up GW will never preview another model ever again, we'll only see them when they go up for pre-order which makes managing a limited hobby budget harder than it already is.

 

I'm all for 3d prints and 3rd party casts when it brings something new to the table or fills a gap in the market - I've even bought discontinued forgeworld models from china on multiple occasions, FW have abandoned the designs so someone else has kept it available for the community as a form of conservation. And I'm all for 3d printed shoulder pads/heads that supplement the original GW/FW product and give options.

 

I'm never going to buy/print an exact copy of an available existing model though. Sure it might save a few quid but the money you are spending goes directly to someone profiting off "stolen" designs, I'd much rather my cash goes to the people who put real work in when possible.

 

Yeah I'm taking a bit of a muddied high ground stance, and I understand the stance of people who don't want to give GW their money, but... You can't have your cake and eat it. If you don't want to support GW then find a different game to play, or just play older editions with your existing collection. I just can't get my head around "I hate GW but I want all their current new models but I won't give them my money!" 

 

I also just hate 3d printed resin, horrid stuff to work with. Give me forgeworld resin or plastic any day. 

[Halandaar]

36 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Where did you find that? Asking for a friend lol.

 

I think this neatly, if unintentionally, summarises one of the key issues here. We aren't talking about an "Outrider alternative" proxy, or an OOP model like the recently retired firstborn bikers, or a thing that exists in a game that GW don't produce a model for; we're talking about a 1:1 copy of a relatively new, readily available mainline plastic product, and one which has been consistently available in value boxes and discounted on the secondary market for the last 4 years at that. Yet still there is demand for a clone of this because people want the actual fruit of GWs design studio but without having to pay GW for it. 

 

Whether or not the price GW want for a box of Outriders is fair or reasonable (it isn't and I certainly wouldn't pay it) is besides the point; they can ask what they want for their product and we as consumers can either choose to pay it or not. Either is obviously a fine and personal decision, but if we choose not to pay we should accept that it means we don't get the product, instead of believing we are somehow entitled to still have it anyway. 

 

Filter this entire conversation through the lens of video games. People want new Call of Duty but it's too expensive or they hate Activision or something, so they aren't prepared to buy it. No worries, personal decision. So a few of those people are playing alternatives like Apex or Battlefield or Counterstrike or whatever, a few of them are trying to get the original Modern Warfare II running reliably again, but what the majority are doing is looking for a cracked version of the game they refused to buy. That's what this conversation is; some people using 3d printing technology for legit alternatives, or to bring back long-lost aspects of the hobby, but most just want to have and eat the cake without having to pay the baker.

[Guest]

On 10/17/2023 at 6:22 AM, Halandaar said:

 

I think this neatly, if unintentionally, summarises one of the key issues here. We aren't talking about an "Outrider alternative" proxy, or an OOP model like the recently retired firstborn bikers, or a thing that exists in a game that GW don't produce a model for; we're talking about a 1:1 copy of a relatively new, readily available mainline plastic product, and one which has been consistently available in value boxes and discounted on the secondary market for the last 4 years at that. Yet still there is demand for a clone of this because people want the actual fruit of GWs design studio but without having to pay GW for it. 

 

 

My comment was a joke, but I will give you a reason to pick that bike over the GW one, it does away with that horrible join right down the middle of the bike.

 

This is not a defence of the stl, it's more why I would pick it... I do currently have 6 sets of Outriders in my pile of shame. 

[Halandaar]

2 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

My comment was a joke,

 

Sure and I probably should have acknowledged that I didn't take it at face value in my rant, apologies. I just felt it represented the sort of thing that's going on here.

[Guest]

On 10/17/2023 at 6:29 AM, Halandaar said:

 

Sure and I probably should have acknowledged that I didn't take it at face value in my rant, apologies. I just felt it represented the sort of thing that's going on here.

 

I am 50/50 in this as a whole...  I just find the attitude of some Frater to be so hypocritical overall I can't help but laugh, not saying its you. 

 

Whats that attitude going to be when FW start using 3D printers more and more? Hell someone in this very thread said they hated 3D printed resin.... Cool story bro but to compare all resin is asinise at best and damn right disingenuous... Thats like comparing Finecast to FW... The are not all the same and to pretend otherwise is laughable.

[Halandaar]

13 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Hell someone in this very thread said they hated 3D printed resin.... Cool story bro but to compare all resin is asinise at best and damn right disingenuous... Thats like comparing Finecast to FW... The are not all the same and to pretend otherwise is laughable.

 

On that much I agree. I've had resin 3d printed parts that are vastly superior to traditional cast resin, but also some that are horribly brittle and snap under nearly no pressure at all. As you say, even the two types of cast resin made by GW are notably different from each other, so to make a sweeping generalisation like "all 3d print resin bad" is pretty daft.

[crimsondave]

2 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

Yes. And I deeply regret doing so. I should not have then, and I will not now.

I went back and looked and I’ve spent $5,000 on GW products new in the box this year alone.  I buy recasts and 3d print when the notion takes me and I’m really not sure why you think your opinion on this should matter to me.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Halandaar said:

 

On that much I agree. I've had resin 3d printed parts that are vastly superior to traditional cast resin, but also some that are horribly brittle and snap under nearly no pressure at all. As you say, even the two types of cast resin made by GW are notably different from each other, so to make a sweeping generalisation like "all 3d print resin bad" is pretty daft.

Oh 100% Finecast is without a doubt one of the biggest stains on GW as a whole. 

 

I have bought some parts on ebay ages ago, that the quality was so bad I actually left negative feedback, but on the other end of the scale I have got 3d printed banners that were insane.

 

 

Like anything 3d printers are a tool in the arsenal, if you want to print a whole army go for it, if you goto GW stores don't be shocked if you get told to leave. 

 

  

4 minutes ago, crimsondave said:

I went back and looked and I’ve spent $5,000 on GW products new in the box this year alone.  I buy recasts and 3d print when the notion takes me and I’m really not sure why you think your opinion on this should matter to me.

 

I had a look back at my spending the last year so from October last year, I am just short of £4k so not far off your $5k.

 

I have bought once from a FORGEworld and would never do that again, I do not have an issue with people that do...

 

But then (Not you @crimsondave) I am not pretending to be holier than thou.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Brother Captain Arkley

[frankendoodle65]

26 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

Hell someone in this very thread said they hated 3D printed resin.... Cool story bro but to compare all resin is asinise at best and damn right disingenuous... Thats like comparing Finecast to FW... The are not all the same and to pretend otherwise is laughable.

 

 

 

I should have phrased that differently - I hate all the 3d printed resin I've used so far. That's from shapeways, Archie's forge and a few different Etsy sellers, it's all been hard horrible brittle stuff. I don't doubt there's nicer resin out there!

[Guest]

On 10/17/2023 at 7:05 AM, frankendoodle65 said:

 

I should have phrased that differently - I hate all the 3d printed resin I've used so far. That's from shapeways, Archie's forge and a few different Etsy sellers, it's all been hard horrible brittle stuff. I don't doubt there's nicer resin out there!

Yes... Yes you should have :P. 

 

Shapeways is just terrible for us wargamers, I have my own issues with Archie which is best left unsaid.

 

Look I am like you I have had bad experiences. I spent a small fortune on Shapeways (About £250) for stuff I ended up throwing in the bin, but like anything you get what you pay for. 

 

My last purchase from the vaunted FW was a SoH Praetor in Power armour, it got replaced 2 times his crest was ruined both times and passed quality control... FW isnt an issue of good stuff its an issue of quality control and the fact it is passed off to the customer because the muppet checking thinks miscast parts are acceptable for a boutique product.

 

I will never replace all my Primaris with 3D Printed stuff but I will be damned if I am not going to supplement my stuff.

[sarabando]

5 minutes ago, frankendoodle65 said:

 

I should have phrased that differently - I hate all the 3d printed resin I've used so far. That's from shapeways, Archie's forge and a few different Etsy sellers, it's all been hard horrible brittle stuff. I don't doubt there's nicer resin out there!

a popular thing to do is mix resin types there are several mixes out there that get very close to how FW resin feels.

 

 

my take is very simple its a service issue, i got a box of new zerkers from china for £18 they are £40 at GW the quality difference is nil. GW CAN produce them at that price point and still make a profit remember they have a 50% staff discount and will still be easily making a profit from that. 

 

As for printing there are very very few "scanners" out there who copy GW stuff, those who create similar designs aesthetically are fine and are doing nothing wrong. 

[Bung]

44 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

I am 50/50 in this as a whole...  I just find the attitude of some Frater to be so hypocritical overall I can't help but laugh, not saying its you. 

 

Whats that attitude going to be when FW start using 3D printers more and more? Hell someone in this very thread said they hated 3D printed resin.... Cool story bro but to compare all resin is asinise at best and damn right disingenuous... Thats like comparing Finecast to FW... The are not all the same and to pretend otherwise is laughable.

 

 

 

Wouldnt have any problems with that If price meets quality. 

Which means they need to be at least one the same Level i and others can do in our garage with discount printers.

 

[frankendoodle65]

17 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

 

My last purchase from the vaunted FW was a SoH Praetor in Power armour, it got replaced 2 times his crest was ruined both times and passed quality control...

 

I've never had any major issues with forgeworld, a few mouldlines, slips and bent parts but nothing I can't easily fix. Guess I've been lucky. 

At least the vast majority of people who have had miscast FW have managed to get replacements without much hassle. Whether the consumers should have to go through that in the first place is another debate entirely though, but it's apparent in many industries now. Power tools are a good example, lots of rubbish sent out by Axminster but they'll happily replace it until you get one that works. I guess that's cheaper than actually quality control, and they get good reviews for customer service!

 

 

11 minutes ago, Brother Captain Arkley said:

I will never replace all my Primaris with 3D Printed stuff but I will be damned if I am not going to supplement my stuff.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier post, I'm a big fan of 3rd party shoulder pads/heads etc to supplement and jazz up my plastic models. Not a fan of the 3d resin available but it's a necessary evil until find a seller using something nicer! 

[Xenith]

20 hours ago, sarabando said:

i got a box of new zerkers from china for £18 they are £40 at GW the quality difference is nil. GW CAN produce them at that price point and still make a profit remember they have a 50% staff discount and will still be easily making a profit from that. 

 

You're forgetting that GW has actual designer costs to recoup. Making those berzerkers moulds cost GW a lot more than the chinese knock offs did, who just took GW's work and copied it. 

 

Two things:

1. One cannot legitimately claim that GW can easily lower their price to match someone ripping off their designs as they have a lot more sunk cost to recoup.
2. Just because they can sell something at a profit doesn't make it good business. A kind of square law applies where if you half profit, you have to quadrouple volume. If something is £5 to produce and you sell for £20, you make £15 profit per sale. If you half the price to £10, you make £5 profit per sale, but then have to sell 3x as much to break even with the previous price model. 

At any rate, the recasters didnt pay to develop the designs and have very little outgoings and much reduced personel costs, so they could probably sell them for pennies. Weird to see how people are happy to be ripped off by chinese and russian recasters but draw the line at paying the originators what they ask for. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Xenith

[Guest]

Just now, frankendoodle65 said:

 

I've never had any major issues with forgeworld, a few mouldlines, slips and bent parts but nothing I can't easily fix. Guess I've been lucky. 

At least the vast majority of people who have had miscast FW have managed to get replacements without much hassle. Whether the consumers should have to go through that in the first place is another debate entirely though, but it's apparent in many industries now. Power tools are a good example, lots of rubbish sent out by Axminster but they'll happily replace it until you get one that works. I guess that's cheaper than actually quality control, and they get good reviews for customer service!

 

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about in my earlier post, I'm a big fan of 3rd party shoulder pads/heads etc to supplement and jazz up my plastic models. Not a fan of the 3d resin available but it's a necessary evil until find a seller using something nicer! 

 

I have never had much luck overall with FW... So you will have to forgive my somewhat negative attitude to them, using the SoH Praetor example, the first replacement was dispatched in 2 days... The last and extremely nice one was a ballache.

 

Well for me I plan on using a mixed resin which I know gives good results. But overall I think some of us experience stuff that others never have... I know of a friend of a friend who has bought so many Titans from FW and never had an issue. Where I have had so many.

[Evil Eye]

11 hours ago, Cpt_Reaper said:

You either pay for the product, or you go without

 

I would argue piracy actually serves as a very good deterrent for companies behaving like complete =][=EXPLETIVE REMOVED=][=. Sure they CAN make anti-consumer decisions, but then people will get sick of their nonsense and will turn to piracy. If a company behaves well, people won't pirate their stuff. If they behave badly, they get punished for it.

 

Remember, these companies exist to serve the customer, not the other way around. I don't owe GW anything. At the end of the day, if I buy exclusively second hand (legit) miniatures and older editions of rules, and paint them with non-GW hobby paints, GW made the same amount of money as if I'd bought/downloaded printer files and/or Russian recasts, which is to say none at all. As far as GW is concerned, the problem is that I'm not giving them money, regardless of why that is. And companies cannot legally enforce that people give them money if said people aren't interested in their product.

 

There's also the issue that IP laws are completely and utterly borked, having been warped and malformed from their original- far more reasonable- incarnations into the draconian laws we have today, solely because of lobbying by Disney and others to keep very old properties from ever going public domain, and therefore are IMO at least so utterly worthless that it's borderline a moral obligation to break them, but that's another story altogether.