3D Printing the Modern Age Recasting

[StratoKhan]

9 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

I believe that this is one of the reasons GW has been revisiting old classics to show that they do make models for their old IP and art - the Zoats, Squats, Necromunda hangers on, heck even producing catachan models shows that the IP is still in use. 

Definitely. I think that for the hobbyist, this has generally had a pretty positive effect, as the breadth of available miniatures, even for niche factions, has increased greatly over the last 10 years, and these are all in plastic.

Maybe miniatures aren’t as numerous and easy to release as the old days when everything was metal, but the overall range has expanded a lot. Sure, this isn’t just down to IP protection (increased capacity, 3D design, and vertical integration of molds/production - ie doing more in house - have likely driven this too) but it definitely also had an effect.

 

Hopefully one day stock availability is improved too, and things like Zoats and terrain become permanently available rather than available for fixed periods only. These decisions by GW are definitely drivers that push people into looking for alternate sources for models.

[Bryan Blaire]

 

3 hours ago, Xenith said:

I think the Chapterhouse/other case was that producing minis from background art or literature, that the owner of the copyright to that art/literature doesn't produce themselves is fair game. That's the reason GW reeled back to the no rules without models stance - if they made the rules for a special character, but didn't produce the model, a model for that character would be fair game to a 3rd party (at least in the US, I think).

 

I believe that this is one of the reasons GW has been revisiting old classics to show that they do make models for their old IP and art - the Zoats, Squats, Necromunda hangers on, heck even producing catachan models shows that the IP is still in use. 

It was the Chapterhouse suit that forced GW to learn this for U.S. law covered jurisdictions - copyright protection only impacts the medium(s) that the work is produced in (for example, 2D art can be protected in both print and digital formats, 3D art can be protected in digital model and physical form, etc.).  You can’t claim copyright protection of an image if the “offending material” is a 3D model when you don’t produce said 3D model.  The art is yours to copy and distribute exclusively barring any other agreements, but you can’t extend that protection to other mediums.  It also taught them that basic shapes and historical icons/icons extremely close to historical or common use images are not protectable through IP law, and that basic concepts and vernacular are not exclusively theirs to hold.  It also said that trademarks have to be actual unique things, not combinations of common words anyone could use as part of every day speech, or images derived from historical sources, and things of that nature.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Bryan Blaire

[Blindhamster]

Personally, I've no issue with 3d prints of stuff that is bespoke. Like, if someone makes a cool unique character model that fits the asthetic of a 40k army, thats pretty cool.

 

I don't personally agree with direct copies of GW models for 3d printing because there's no creativity and ultimately its just profiting off someone elses work.

 

that said, I'm also not opposed to things like custom shoulder pads and GW do do those, just most 3d prints aren't 1:1 copies of official ones.

[Aarik]

I'm definitely of the opinion that recasting and 3D printing -- like piracy in general -- is a service problem.  And I would go further to say that it's a just form of price discrimination, albeit from the consumer's side rather than the retailer.  Does GW make a product that I want at a price I'm willing to pay?  If yes, then I'll buy it.  If no, I won't.  And if someone else sells the product I want at a price I am willing to pay, then I'll buy it from them instead.  GW isn't losing sales to me because anything I pirate/recast/3D print is something that I would not have bought from GW regardless.  For all GW's faults, they make excellent plastic kits.  All other things being equal, I'd prefer to buy them versus an alternative if I like the models.  On the other hand, FW charging $31 USD for the despoiler upgrade kit is just taking the piss.  That's absurd.  The arms for a squad of ten cost more than the underlying squad itself.  If I choose not to buy it from FW and get an identical version from China or a 3D printer, I'm just voting with my wallet, which is really the only power I have as a consumer.

 

On 10/14/2023 at 10:48 PM, Jarl Caldersson said:

We don't need to stoop to using 3D-printed recasts and destroying the good faith companies have made for us. ... So please enjoy 3D-printing, use them to customize your army, and make them shiny, but 3D-recasting should not be tolerated.

 

Going back to the original post though, the quoted portion above is where Jarl Caldersson lost me.  GW has no good faith.  It, as a company, exists to separate me from my money.  That's it.  There are many GW employees who genuinely love the hobby, but GW as an entity just wants to sell me as many products as possible at the highest price I'm willing to pay.  It does not feel bad about raising prices (or taking any of the myriad other anti-consumer actions that plenty of people online have beaten to death) to squeeze the last few dollars as possible out of me, and I don't feel bad about turning to alternatives on the other hand.  [And it does not feel bad about exploiting its employees' love for the hobby to pay them below-market wages.]  And frankly, I don't (and never will) understand people who feel the need to defend companies in these situations.  GW is making money hand over fist.  They'll be okay.  If, at some point in the future, 3D printing takes off to the point that it completely replaces regular model-making, then GW will have to adapt like any other company in the face of technological innovation.  That's just the risk of running a business that relies in part on something that can be easily distributed digitally.  There are many creators who make a living selling STLs, and GW can do the same if it wants.

 

I absolutely would download a car, I don't care if someone buys a fake Rolex or handbag, and I could care less if someone makes or uses a digital copy of a GW model.  I'm actually more offended by someone using ugly almost-proxies like the dreadnought linked earlier, or sloppy, ill-proportioned copies of GW miniatures, rather than flawless ones.  If I'm playing someone, or looking at pictures, I want their models to look good.  I couldn't care less where they came from, just like I don't care if the watch or shoes the guy I pass on the street is wearing are real or fake.  The person with a fully 3D printed army is just another potential person for me to play against, or to post cool pictures of it that I can look at.  They only add to the hobby experience.  I'd rather have someone nicely paint a 3D printed army than have someone with a sloppily painted fully GW one.

 

If (the general) you want to buy nothing but legit GW and Forgeworld and buy every print codex they put out, genuinely good for you!  If you're happy, I'm happy.  [And I have sympathy for those who are annoyed by "hur dur why would you ever buy legit, just 3D print bro!" comments.  Let everyone buy what they want.]  But who cares if someone else feels differently?  It doesn't devalue anything you have, it's not an existential threat to the hobby (although it's possible it could be at some point, but that's a bridge to cross when we get there).  It doesn't really affect you at all, except for having to listen to people talk about it.

 

And lastly, from my understanding (and I follow 3D printing decently closely), 3D scans are not very prevalent when creating models.  They do not work super well yet.  Instead, my understanding is that most of the "copies" people make are made from scratch.  Which exposes a point I've made before, but I do not see mentioned often: 3D sculpting of models (at least space marines/vehicles, not sure about more organic shapes) is not that hard.  In the Horus Heresy space, there are a number of creators who churn out models that are at least as good quality as GW/FW at a pace that far outstrips them.  

[Bung]

@Aarik

You can get stuff for every army if you know the Creators or search Terms.

Most Creators i know from Discord use Blender and can do organic shapes without problems.

The one thing i find better handsculpted are faces. A lot of 3d sculpted faces look to symetric, they lack the imperfection of hand sculpting.

But creators are always getting better with practise.

 

[Blindhamster]

15 hours ago, Aarik said:

And if someone else sells the product I want at a price I am willing to pay, then I'll buy it from them instead.  GW isn't losing sales to me because anything I pirate/recast/3D print is something that I would not have bought from GW regardless.

Except part of your decision process for going with the copy will be because it’s available. If it weren’t you may have purchased at least some of the GW things. It’s easy to say you wouldn’t when someone else is happily undercutting with a direct copy.

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

Except part of your decision process for going with the copy will be because it’s available. If it weren’t you may have purchased at least some of the GW things. It’s easy to say you wouldn’t when someone else is happily undercutting with a direct copy.

Not really? Like, there are constant streams of GW models id like to buy but cant justify the price of, i dont go out and 3d print many, if any of them and im a terrible hobby butterfly these days :D 

[Bung]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Except part of your decision process for going with the copy will be because it’s available. If it weren’t you may have purchased at least some of the GW things. It’s easy to say you wouldn’t when someone else is happily undercutting with a direct copy.

 

For me it depends how i use the Copy.

Sometimes i want as a painting project that will sit on a shelf or Cut it up / use parts If it for Terrain. 

Buying a bigger modell like a Warhound / Thunderhawk for something like that doesnt make an economic sense.

If i would use it for regular games i would prefer the original.

[roryokane]

On 10/20/2023 at 1:11 PM, Blindhamster said:

Except part of your decision process for going with the copy will be because it’s available. If it weren’t you may have purchased at least some of the GW things. It’s easy to say you wouldn’t when someone else is happily undercutting with a direct copy.

This doesn't apply when you want a specific thing that's OOP.
I would give GW my money for, example, the boarding assault set. They have gone OOP, so I will give someone else the money for that same product instead. GW are welcome to start 3d printing stuff from their back catalogue on demand if they want. Hell, they could go back to having old school catalogues of individual bits and selling those to us. If they're not willing to do that, but someone else is mass-producing the exact piece that I want, then I feel no compunction about giving my money to the person selling the thing I want.

[Blindhamster]

4 minutes ago, roryokane said:

This doesn't apply when you want a specific thing that's OOP.
I would give GW my money for, example, the boarding assault set. They have gone OOP, so I will give someone else the money for that same product instead. GW are welcome to start 3d printing stuff from their back catalogue on demand if they want. Hell, they could go back to having old school catalogues of individual bits and selling those to us. If they're not willing to do that, but someone else is mass-producing the exact piece that I want, then I feel no compunction about giving my money to the person selling the thing I want.

Yes, to me OOP things fall into fair game market, GW don't want to sell it despite there being a demand.

[roryokane]

17 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

Yes, to me OOP things fall into fair game market, GW don't want to sell it despite there being a demand.

Fair enough, but I too would download a car.