January 2024 MFM and Dataslate

[Karhedron]

40 minutes ago, Kaiju Soze said:

If you have the app, there's a by-faction list of index card errata under Key Documents.  Doesn't specify when the errate was introduced but does contain the above mentioned change to the Wulfen Hammer.

 

I don't have the app unfortunately. Any chance of a screenshot or list please?

[Kaiju Soze]

10 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't have the app unfortunately. Any chance of a screenshot or list please?

 

Might be difficult; some are pretty short and simple (Sororitas have 2 entries), others have quite a bit (25 entries on the Aeldari list).  Maybe check to see if somewhere like Goonhammer has put together a summary.

Edited January 30 by Kaiju Soze

[Trokair]

28 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

I don't have the app unfortunately. Any chance of a screenshot or list please?

 

I think this lists all the changes fro mthe index cards, red ones are new?

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/NcELdKldijQmVCUS.pdf

[Wolf Guard Dan]

World Eaters seem to have been hit quite hard. Wish they would have just addressed the Beserker Glaive instead of increasing the points on the MoE. 

[Kharn13]

55 minutes ago, Spurspinter1 said:

 

If "fair" means selling more models at any cost then sure.

 

It wasn't a free changeling, it cost real life money and in game points, and now to be able to field it I need to buy more models that I don't particularly want?  Then next edition there'll be no deamon allies so I'll have even more models to gather dust or to give in and start collecting daemons..

 

Thanks to the posters pointing me in the direction of the rules and I don't mean to be arsy with you, it's just insane these kind of changes are considered normal / fair . You can get a chess set for a fiver which is a better game and it's unsurprisingly more balanced, whereas this hobby just bleeds you dry. Yes I know how bitter I sound! 

 

Edit - And I need blood letters to be able to field my flesh hounds, utterly ridiculous. House rules here we come I guess as I'm not buying a load of crap old models that I don't have any desire for.

I have to agree. I now have Khorne daemon allies that I can’t field with my WE. What’s wrong with taking a great daemon on its own? Everyone can take a big knight on its own…

[TheMawr]

7 minutes ago, Kharn13 said:

I have to agree. I now have Khorne daemon allies that I can’t field with my WE. What’s wrong with taking a great daemon on its own? Everyone can take a big knight on its own…

 

Actually you should be able to take any khorne daemon with WE if I understand correctly.. as long as you have Berzerkers or Jakhals. The "unlocking" requirement is Khorne+Battleline, but not necessarily daemons. Meaning that this is only there to filter out the meta-chasing type of lists. Or do I misread it somehow ?

[WrathOfTheLion]

3 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

 

Actually you should be able to take any khorne daemon with WE if I understand correctly.. as long as you have Berzerkers or Jakhals. The "unlocking" requirement is Khorne+Battleline, but not necessarily daemons. Meaning that this is only there to filter out the meta-chasing type of lists. Or do I misread it somehow ?

I think the '... cannot be greater than the number of BATTLELINE units with that keyword you include in this way' means it has to be Daemon battleline, as they're the ones included in your list through that mechanism.

[Kharn13]

15 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

 

Actually you should be able to take any khorne daemon with WE if I understand correctly.. as long as you have Berzerkers or Jakhals. The "unlocking" requirement is Khorne+Battleline, but not necessarily daemons. Meaning that this is only there to filter out the meta-chasing type of lists. Or do I misread it somehow ?

I have zerkers in my list, but the app says it’s illegal. Has to be daemons battleline.

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Spurspinter1 said:

 

If "fair" means selling more models at any cost then sure.

 

It wasn't a free changeling, it cost real life money and in game points, and now to be able to field it I need to buy more models that I don't particularly want?  Then next edition there'll be no deamon allies so I'll have even more models to gather dust or to give in and start collecting daemons..

 

Thanks to the posters pointing me in the direction of the rules and I don't mean to be arsy with you, it's just insane these kind of changes are considered normal / fair . You can get a chess set for a fiver which is a better game and it's unsurprisingly more balanced, whereas this hobby just bleeds you dry. Yes I know how bitter I sound! 

 

Edit - And I need blood letters to be able to field my flesh hounds, utterly ridiculous. House rules here we come I guess as I'm not buying a load of crap old models that I don't have any desire for.

 

The game has never been as free wheeling with Allies as it did from the start of 10th.  There was 0 downside.  Now you've got some.  That's balance, baby!


That being said, you've got the right of it; just play house rules if it's that big of a deal.  No one should be using these rules commentaries are bibles if they're just playing for fun with their pals.  They're suggestions on how the game should be ran.

Instead of treating it like a computer program, treat it like a DnD game; the rules are there, but cool is always king.

 

edit: If it were up to me, i'd probably do away with allies as a whole, but that's because I hate seeing Wardogs/Armigers and Nurglings in basically every competitive list.  I get it, that's the point, but by allowing them they change how armies operate/what they have access to, and start to homegenize the game a lot.

I'd rather see each faction be more bespoke and less reliant on the same stuff, but that's never going to happen competitively since the whole point is to run as efficient as possible, and if the options are there, people are going to take them.

This all basically comes out of the loss of the FOC and the ramifications it's had on the game since.  Truly my biggest disappointment with 10th is the "It's only rule of 3!(6 sometimes)".

Edited January 30 by DemonGSides

[Noserenda]

Its comprehensively not actually balance, its just punitive.

Its a big shift from the rest of 40k's fairly free wheeling army selection and i dont think its actually helping anyone really, well aside from the money men. Either the punitive cost is bearable and you get some unloved absolutely token troops unit sat in a corner or something; or its too much and people just stop taking daemon allies entirely, whether they were optimising or just wanted to include a few daemons alongside their chaos force in a perfectly fluffy manner. 

Daemon summoning is just as (if not more so) going to be things like dramatic possession rituals for greater daemons, or some beasts sneaking out of a small rift as a weirdly formal platoon of grunts turning up.

That said, i dont think anyone expected consistency across an edition or a narrative focus in 40k these days did they :D 

[Plaguecaster]

Well I just gained another 120pts for my Nurgle daemons army so I’m rather surprised 

certain things are pretty annoying like the plague marine increase as I thought they wanted us to use our only battle line unit not punish us for taking them 

 

no changes to beasts and drones whilst everything else does seems stupid.

pact stupid as now I have to take nurglings in order to take Nurgle daemons for my army, I thought nurglings were the problem with people taking heaps now I can’t take a GUO by itself or some drones or beasts which aren’t powerful just a fluffy force doesn’t really do much to the original problem and means more nurglings are taken since battle line and still cheap 

[Nephaston]

Rules-writing Peon: "This unit/faction/ability isn't performing how we want it to; we can either alter the points costs, or rewrite the rules."

 

Exalted Rules-writing Lord, chugging paint water and crunching citadel water cups on their foreheads like beer cans: "Do both, nerd!"

 

Every time. And in case of Dark Eldar they even gone so far as triple buffing them by buffing their army rule, reducing their points cost, and adding a completely brand spanking new detachment that, after a quick skim, looks very potent. Here's hoping they don't suddenly jump to 60% win ratio, because I just know they'll eat triple nerfs in that case.

 

Does that also mean Deldar are the last codex this edition or is it just their poor performance?

[Tokugawa]

I play DG, and I totally agree that a plague marine shouldn't be cheaper than an intercessor, no matter how the faction win% was.

[WrathOfTheLion]

They do like to embrace the power of 'and' in a lot of cases, going back quite a long time. We could nerf X unit/faction with A or B. How about A and B? Vice versa with buffs.

 

They were doing this easily as far back as 8E with their FAQs/balance passes, and were probably doing it beforehand as well, although I wasn't paying so much attention then, as I was only more casually involved in 7E.

Edited January 30 by WrathOfTheLion

[OttoVonAwesome]

If they really want to diversify the units people bring they need to change the meta entirely. Replace half the ruins with debris on the tournement board. No ones gonna stop taking the deadliest combat units and indirect fire as long as you can't ever actually shoot for more than one turn before getting charged. It's like an insurance company blaming the driver when the problem was manufacturings fualt.

[Emperor Ming]

I think it would be helpful if they changed it from 45% to 50%

 

Then the factions languishing at the bottom would get some boosts. 

[Wolf Guard Dan]

They addressed a lot except for the two factions on top in any meaningful way.

 

@Nephaston Dark Eldar are a long way off 60%. They didn’t really buff the stuff that already works in that index. They buffed the stuff that didn’t work at all, which is the melee. Their shooting doesn’t benefit from the new detachment because the buffs are when you leave the transport but you never want your shooters to leave their transport. To get to 60% their melee better be bonkers and I don’t see it happening. Craftworld eldar are still going to be better than them.

[SvenONE]

3 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Rules-writing Peon: "This unit/faction/ability isn't performing how we want it to; we can either alter the points costs, or rewrite the rules."

 

Exalted Rules-writing Lord, chugging paint water and crunching citadel water cups on their foreheads like beer cans: "Do both, nerd!"

 

Every time. And in case of Dark Eldar they even gone so far as triple buffing them by buffing their army rule, reducing their points cost, and adding a completely brand spanking new detachment that, after a quick skim, looks very potent. Here's hoping they don't suddenly jump to 60% win ratio, because I just know they'll eat triple nerfs in that case.

 

Does that also mean Deldar are the last codex this edition or is it just their poor performance?

 

 

Let's not forget the 45% winrates you see GW posting are results from high profile tournaments which are being attended by DE players who are likely skilled enough and clearly confident enough to even bring DE to a tournament in this edition; "we're sending our best!" It's really not a popular faction relative to others (and that's a whole separate discussion). So we could somewhat infer that winrates are even lower for the non-Trueborn out there in the world. Anecdotally I've played 3 games with them and lost them all with most of my army being more or less tabled by turn 3, I'm not the best, but I've been playing the faction for 15 years and have had success even before 9th!

 

I think the reaction you are seeing from players about these updates tell a story. I know we throw around the "this codex is not good" with just about everything, but it really can't be understated how downright CLUMSY the Index and original detachment therein was for Drukhari. It's almost looked like the faction rules were written without any real consideration to the core rule mechanics in some cases. The fact that it took 6 months to add Incubi to the Archon's list of units it could lead is baffling. I mean :cuss:, the Incubi raison d'être is to be hired by Archons to protect them. At some point a discussion was had between your two ruleswriting archetypes and a decision was made "yeah, we shouldn't let archons lead Incubi" and it went to print! You also have a problem with your faction when the 3 most promising units are basically OOP, impossible to find resin units that were introduced 15 years ago and have languished in obscurity just about their entire existence (Court, Beastmasters, Mandrakes). You could get conspiratorial and suggest Mandrakes were made better to drive the hype cycle prior to the KT release, but that's besides the point. Go to any Drukhari/DE board and you basically see "Mandrake proxy?" to the point you could dedicate entire forums to just that topic.

 

I won't poo poo on the new detachment because it's something. It's especially attractive when compared to the Index detachment which is at this point, in my eyes at least, obsolete. But it is still going to require skill as its advantages lie in kicking your passengers out onto the battlefield which is something any Drukhari player will tell you is not what you want for your T3/1W/4+ models.

 

Separately, the biggest comedy to me is the Daemons/CSM adjustment. GW makes huge noise about breaking barriers down to play and ditching FOCs only to.. checks notes ...gatekeep by requiring compulsory units before accessing others. Come on guys pick a lane!

 

[Alternis]

I agree with everything said here. 
 

but I do have a bone to pick with them not touching Necrons despite their win rates being higher then Eldar right now. 
 

Overall their codex is in a great place but they have this huge over reliance on C’tan atm, and they are hugely under costed for what they bring to the table, they need either a points increase, or just remove their FNP rule completely if they want them that cheap. 
 

nothing with that toughness, wound count and total saves that dishes out that much damage AND has a feel no pain, and the cherry on top of it all, THEY HALF ALL INCOMING DMG, it shouldn’t cost that, while Lion loses his -1 to wound, lost his FNP to devastating wounds, and still costs 100 points extra in comparison. 
 

The rules team is literally the deaf leading the blind. 

Edited January 31 by Alternis
Rule amendment

[OttoVonAwesome]

Guard are at 45% and all they got was a nerf.

[crimsondave]

I’d already decided not to use their rules after I saw the DA codex.  This just reinforces my decision.

[AutumnEffect]

I'm flabbergast that Uriel Ventris wasn't touched with a point increase while things like Accursed Cultists got a triple whammy. 

[Tokugawa]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

I'm flabbergast that Uriel Ventris wasn't touched with a point increase while things like Accursed Cultists got a triple whammy. 

Anything Mani Cheema touched is going to be doomed. The destiny of CSM meta hotness units were decided the day when Mani won the first world Championship trophy. 

 

He didn't play loyalist marine since 10th.

Edited January 31 by Tokugawa

[Petitioner's City]

15 hours ago, Joe said:

The 40k documents (MFM in particular) continue to be embarrassing. AoS nailed how to present points changes over five years ago now.

 

That's really interesting; how does AoS do it?

[Spurspinter1]

10 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

The game has never been as free wheeling with Allies as it did from the start of 10th.  There was 0 downside.  Now you've got some.  That's balance, baby!


That being said, you've got the right of it; just play house rules if it's that big of a deal.  No one should be using these rules commentaries are bibles if they're just playing for fun with their pals.  They're suggestions on how the game should be ran.

Instead of treating it like a computer program, treat it like a DnD game; the rules are there, but cool is always king.

 

edit: If it were up to me, i'd probably do away with allies as a whole, but that's because I hate seeing Wardogs/Armigers and Nurglings in basically every competitive list.  I get it, that's the point, but by allowing them they change how armies operate/what they have access to, and start to homegenize the game a lot.

I'd rather see each faction be more bespoke and less reliant on the same stuff, but that's never going to happen competitively since the whole point is to run as efficient as possible, and if the options are there, people are going to take them.

This all basically comes out of the loss of the FOC and the ramifications it's had on the game since.  Truly my biggest disappointment with 10th is the "It's only rule of 3!(6 sometimes)".

 

This is reasonable and I can't disagree with it, I was just perhaps a little triggered by use of the term "free" so apologies if i was barking at you! £70 on models to top my list up to two k, and now I'd need to put down another £50 to make those units eligible whilst losing a war dog, therefore making it nowhere near competitive anyways. And by the time these were fully painted there'd potentially be a rule change to do away with Daemon allies whatsoever. It's just not normal in a game, I guess it has become normal but it shouldn't be.

 

It's just that I don't expect big eligibility shifts on units mid edition, if it was coming to the end of one and I got stung it's sadly par for the course. I've only finished this CK list in the last few months, I could have just done the expected thing and bought 13 war dogs, instead I went a different route and I guess feel punished for it? As we say, house rule it because the rule is nonsense. But then other people I play might think that other rules are also nonsense and if I can change things why can't they? It gets tricky, I just think maybe having massive in game changes shows how :cuss: the whole thing is.

 

Both my armies have been hit hard, I completely see the need of the nerf to Chaos space Marines, it'd take some gall to argue it but then I wasn't expecting my Daemon contingent of my knights to be a reason for me to get completely shafted in addition. The time, money and effort in this case has now put me in a position if I want to play competitive with the chaos knights.