the two lost Primarchs - Speculations...

[Commander Nicky]

I have been thinking (as I do a lot) about the two missing primarchs.

 

While it is clear that they are "gone" I was wondering what was their "sins" was - and therefre the reason why they were erased by the Emperor and the Imperium. I have some idears I would like the share about them and their fate + the fate of their Legions.

 

With that in mind, I would like to come up with what I think has happend.

 

 

The 2nd primarch who was dicovered 821.M30 lead his legion for many years. This much is certain. I am more unsure about him than the 11th Primarch - what his sins was. I have a feeling (and only a little feeling), that he had a view or opinion which did not sit well with the Emperor. The Emperor's politics on, perhaps, aliens, freedom, human rights, democracy or religions (not that the Emperor was a god, but religion in general). On the state and to what extent the Emperor was and should be all powerfull. Whatever their differences was I don't know, but it was something with the core idears of the Imperium where the two were different. The Emperor did not have something in mind which the 2nd Primarch had. I think the 2nd primarch went to far and could not give up on his idears (kind of like Lorgar and Magnus but at the same time, he did not back down like those two from challanging the Emperor). I don't think the 2nd primarch believed the Emperor would santifiy him in a way. I think he was the first of the primarch to dissapear, and in that sense, I think there were many  years (perhaps decades) between the 2nd and the 11th primarch's dissapearing.

I mean, if the 2nd Primarch thougth he would be an exception to the Emperor's authority and get away with whatever he did, and the Emperor did not act, the other primarchs might have doubt as to what extent the Emperor would go to keep the Primarchs in line. Perhaps the Emperor put out an example to all (Primarch, Space marines, Imperial officers and Imperial officials) as to how far he would go to keep his power, and how he would react if he was challanged on authority.

The Emperor is in charge, and noone else. Perhaps the 2nd Primarch took command of more than he was allowed to. If this is true, then the 2nd Primarch let his hubris get the better of himself... and payed the price.

The 2nd Primarch insulence could be seen as an rebellion against the Emperor. Should a Primarch be treated any different just because he is a Primarch and the Emperor is his "father"? Remember, this is before any of the Legions and their Primarch have been sanctined before. NOT BEFORE HAS THE EMPEROR DONE THIS!. Not before. This was the first Primarch ever to feel his wrath!

The solution?

The Emperor would has showned his might and wrath and purge the 2nd Primarch, along with his followers, Space Marine and humans alike. If the whole of the 2nd Legion followed him, it would have to be purged as well. But those of the 2nd legion who did not follow their Primarch, those would the Emperor, decide if they would continue to service, on the condition that they be mindwiped/mind eraised and reasigned to other legions as a way of removing the 2nd Legion from existent. They would have been spread out amount the other 18 legions, and be kept away from former members of their old legion until they all died away. Official, they were all killed when the Emperor would order the exicution of the 2nd Primarch by his executioner (Russ) In this way, the Emperor would make sure noone was in doubt of who was in command (all hail the Emperor!). 

 

 

The 11th primarch who was discovered in 927.M30 was... flawed... I think... by and during his journey to the warp. I say this because, when reading carefully in the HH and looking through the timeline and other materials, it is clear, that he was "corrupted" or somehow damaged - Like really damaged! I am specifically saying that he was or had become a mutant. Possible possesed with psychic powers. And he would be dangerous.

What is the course for this?  I don't know what was the tricker.... He might have been driving mad during the journey to through the warp. Perhaps. We hear in Galaxy in Flames, that Horus damage his pod.... Perhaps Horus did damage the 11th's pod, or perhaps it was already damaged or became damaged during the warp. But somehow it was damaged. Horus sees what he want to see. He clearly didn't want to see, that a Primarch-turned-monster/mutant was due to a flaw cause by the Emperor in his engineering. Whatever it was that cause, the pod was to be damaged, and when the pod landed, what came out of the pod carrying the 11th Primach, was far less human than any of the other primarchs, and more of a monster. More so, it (the 11th Primarch) was dangerous to other people and even himself. If so, it would be a catastrofy.

I say this because the Imperium, the Emperor and the Primarchs could never live with that. A Primach abomination. None would accept a Primarch like this. The common people would not understand. and if the 11th Primarch overstrethed the Imperium's tolarance for mutatants. It would be too much of a problem for the Imperium as a non-tolerant of differences. The 11th legion's morale would also break but I think they were already depleted due to the Rangdan Xenocides and by this time the other legions could compensate for their lack of military strength.  But to know that their Primarch was a fell mutant... That would put up questions of the stability of their geneseed and their sanity, if such a thing has not come up already... I could go on what it meant to have a Primarch abomination, but I think you get the points.

 

The solution? The 11th primarch would have to dissapear, and the best way would be to lock him away.

If the 11th Primarch would to dissapear, The 11th Legion would also have to dissapear. I can imagine that some would rebel against this "betray". I could mussed that this was here the SW became involved.

Those of the 11th legion who would not be rebel, those who did not rebel against the Emperor and the other Primarchs for this betray, of these, those whose geneseed were pure/stable enough to continue service, these would have been mindwiped/mind eraised and reasigned to other legions as a way of diluting the 11th Legion and therby make it disappear. We are not talking about one legion they would have been assigned to. they would have been spread out amount the other 18 legions, and be kept assignt away from former members of thier same old legion until they all died away. And, hopefully, the 11th primarch and his legion would be forgotten...

 

I would like what you think of this. Do you think it Is way out of reality?

 

[MegaVolt87]

Since the missing legions marines seem to have exclusively ended up in the IF and UM, Dorn being mind wiped what happens, re-learns what happened asks Malcador to mind wipe him again its that bad. Meanwhile, Horus, Sang, Fulgrim and Russ seem to be in on it because Malcador nearly kills Horus in that meeting when he tries to talk about it again. Since Dorn was mind wiped and marines ended up in his legion, assume RG was also mind wiped. There must be some link between the missing primarchs, Dorn and RG since it seems there is no apparent issue of kymeric geneseed with the surviving lost legions ending up into those two legions exclusively. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

Honestly, the whole “rolled into the IF and UM Legions” thing never made any sense, given the Mechanicus do constant testing of geneseed purity, and are able to tell what Primarch geneline a particular sample came from. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Honestly, the whole “rolled into the IF and UM Legions” thing never made any sense, given the Mechanicus do constant testing of geneseed purity, and are able to tell what Primarch geneline a particular sample came from. 

 

It was originally supposed to be in-Universe speculation. It started with a pair of Word Bearers trash-talking the UMs in First Heretic. ADB has said in the past that he intended it to be characters spitballing and not necessarily true. It was a bit surprising to see it suddenly canonised much later on.

 

The Ad Mech do indeed do purity testing but that is a post-Heresy thing. Just because the Marines were absorbed does not mean their geneseed continued to be used. Perhaps they were allowed to serve but their geneseed was discarded when they died. Alternatively it may explain why the 3 successor Chapters to the Imperial Fists have such different Characteristics. Maybe the Black Templars are really descended from one of the lost Primarchs. I know a lot of people like the notion that the Silver Skulls are not really descended from the UMs as officially stated but are in fact the Loyalist Iron Warriors who followed Dantioch during the Imperium Secundus period.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Sure, they didn’t then, but they do “now”, and have enough understanding of genelines to recognise what line a particular Chapter comes from. Even during the Crusade, you run into the issue of “people have to be in on the conspiracy to know not to use the geneseed of Brother Bob and not do so without drawing attention to it, when even Primarchs weren’t allowed to keep their memory”.

 

Plus, the Soul Drinkers also never made sense as a Second Founding. The Imperial Fist Legion got split into the die-hard veterans (Imperial Fists), the calmer moderates (Crimson Fists), the vengeful crusaders (Black Templars), and then… the boarding specialists? It doesn’t fit. The twist of them being a later unrelated Founding that had the truth twisted into believing they were a Second Founding makes much more sense. 

Even if you just go off the 3 different “true” ones, they all have the exact same geneseed degradation, losing the Betchers and Sus-an organs. 

[TheArtilleryman]

I was gonna say the Soul Drinkers. It’s never actually confirmed who their primarch really was, so it’s possible they could have been anyone. Literally anyone at all.

[Valkyrion]

The missing primarchs don't make much sense the more you learn about the other legions.

We had legions that ate humans, turned to spawn, built their own empires, used world ending weaponry, terrorised their own planets and worshipped gods and none of them were stricken from existence and all are existential threats to dominion over humanity.  Sanguinius feared being purged because of the red thirst, but the thousand sons were turning into warp monsters and given opportunity to recover? Not buying it. 

 

I think the most likely scenario is they took up arms against the Emperor and were killed for it, or were victims of a mistake made by the Emperor (e.g, lost in the webway, or sent to another galaxy) and being expunged from records also expunges the fallibility of the Emperor, and of these I think it is the former because it is so dull that even oathbreaking traitors have no need to mention it again - someone like Curze would tell everyone he met what happened to the two of them if it was something galaxy-shattering that would freak the imperium out, but it's only whilst everyone is loyal do the Primarchs speak in whispers about it.

 

The marines themselves could have been rolled into other legions if they were already made with Dorn or Guilliman's stock. Maybe the lost primarchs found that out, that their gene sons weren't in fact of their genes and threw a fit about it, but there is zero evidence of that anywhere, so I highly doubt it. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

I have a theory about, at least,one of the Lost Legions. The second. Look at this pictures. There's at least one banner in that picture that's  clearly not belongs to any of the other 18 known Legions, and bears a "2". If we agree that we are watching Legion banners/standarts and not company's...maybe we have an official pic *after all this is official art firm GW products related to Horus Heresy and W40K* of at least II Legion heraldry.

In fact, we have more concrete data from the II than the IX

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I can understand Sanguinius freaking out, the Flesh Change was hidden from everyone outside the Thousand Sons Legion, so as far as Sanguinius knows, the Red Thirst IS grounds for dissolution, particularly since the Revenant Legion was nearing that point before he was found. 
 

I still go by the theory that they were corrupted by the Rangdan, and actively turned on the Imperium afterwards. This also helps reconcile the claims that the Space Wolves destroyed one or more of the missing Legions, since it was them alongside the Dark Angels that did the “cleanup” in the aftermath of the Rangdan Xenocides. 

[Jareddm]

On 2/14/2024 at 6:59 AM, Lord_Caerolion said:

Even if you just go off the 3 different “true” ones, they all have the exact same geneseed degradation, losing the Betchers and Sus-an organs. 

We now know that the missing implants in the Imperial Fists lineage is due to Dorn consciously choosing to not implant these two into inductii in the lead up to the Siege. He felt they would not be useful in such a campaign and that it was more important to get more marines made faster. The problem was after the Siege, when they tried to reintroduce the implants, they failed to take. So if there were mission legion marines mixed in amongst them, they likely would've been affected as well.

Edited February 16 by Jareddm

[Lord_Caerolion]

Not sure I agree with his logic to remove the acidic spit, but I hadn’t read that fluff before. Thanks for the new info. 

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, Lord_Caerolion said:

Not sure I agree with his logic to remove the acidic spit, but I hadn’t read that fluff before. Thanks for the new info. 

He’s making the same difficult decisions we all make when building an army. Like “do I give the whole squad grenades or do I use the points to add another marine?” 

[Lord_Ikka]

For further info, lexicanium has a pretty good rundown of all the official mentions of the Lost Legions. As far as it goes, the only real name we have for either is the Forgotten and the Purged, which implies that the 2nd Legion/Primarch's sin was covered up so well that only very few even remember it, while the 11th could be anything from rebellion to mutation of some type. 

 

Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get any real answers out of GW for these two mysteries.

Edited February 16 by Lord_Ikka

[Cactus]

Here's a mad idea that just came to me: one of the missing is the Beast of Ullanor. No, hear me out. Orks follow the biggest and mightiest boss and either by accident or design a primarch could find themselves winning command of a tribe and escalating from there. Unfortunately prolonged exposure to the orkoid biome made the primarch more orky and it had to be put down. You can't truly tame the WAAAAGH!

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, Cactus said:

Here's a mad idea that just came to me: one of the missing is the Beast of Ullanor. No, hear me out. Orks follow the biggest and mightiest boss and either by accident or design a primarch could find themselves winning command of a tribe and escalating from there. Unfortunately prolonged exposure to the orkoid biome made the primarch more orky and it had to be put down. You can't truly tame the WAAAAGH!

 

+++ Ordo Xenos transmission intercept +++

+++ Message Begin +++

+++ He's on to us +++

+++ Officio Assassinorum operative dispatched +++

+++ End Transmission +++

 

[Lord_Caerolion]

We are told that each Primarch lead their Legions, although that depends on if you interpret that as including the Missing Primarchs as well. 
 

The most likely answer is that one of them rebelled against the Emperor, but did so alone, with only a portion of their Legion. 
Given the smaller scale, it was able to be put down with relative ease, but given the precarious nature of the fledgling Imperium it would be politically unfeasible to show a Primarch rebelling against the Emperor, so it gets swept under the rug. 
 

The only reason this isn’t done with the Horus Heresy is a matter of scale. Most Imperial citizens aren’t aware of the Traitor Legions outside of religious dogma, but the Heresy was so widespread and foundational an event that a complete coverup is impossible, so it’s just restricted to various levels of how much people get taught. 

[Felix Antipodes]

Looking at the distribution of where the Primarchs were found, my headcanon is that at least one, if not both, were discovered in Pacificus.  This is why that Segmentum has been a hotbed of rebellion over the millennia.  Nova Terra may even have been where he/they were discovered.  Their return from exile may have been covered up by the High Lords as the War of the False Primarch.  Ooh, I love a good conspiracy theory…

 

As for their fate, I believe the 2nd was found, led his Legion for a period, and then was punished for some reason with exile.  Those loyal to him going along with him, those loyal to the Imperium being folded into or attached to other legions.  Once again, my headcanon is they (the entire legion - no split) were sent west, past the edge of Pacificus, and told not to return until they had added xx amount of worlds to the pot.  I don't believe it was outright rebellion, possibly a philosophical one “Why are we killing xenos out of hand, Dad?” Sort of thing.

 

As for the 11th?  I recall a story where the Emperor took one of the others to a tower of the palace for some sort of test.  It being intimated that if you failed the test you didn’t leave said tower.  Maybe the 11th failed the test?  I don’t think he was in charge of his legion as he was found very late (19th, in 927.M30).  So, final headcanon, he was found, failed the tower test, and his legion was broken up and attached (not disbanded) across all the others as a result.  Which is where the rumours of disbanded/absorbed originated from.

 

What was so heinous that Dorn (and possibly others) were voluntarily mind wiped by Malcador/Big E?  Just the thought that the Emperor or one of his sons were infallible is my best guess, but who really knows?

[Brother Kraskor]

I would be very surprised to learn that there is actually an 'official' answer to this question buried somewhere in GW (as far as anything can be 'official'). I'd be even more surprised if that same answer existed right from the start too.

[Slips]

We're highly unlikely to ever get an actual, conclusive, official response because the point of the 2 lost legions, for GW anyways, is to be a way for you to insert "your dudes" into the setting without issue. Also something something Lost Roman Legions, something something intrigue and its fun to speculate with others.

[Emperor's Angel]

Remember, it’s also now heavily implied that some Thousand Sons loyalists were incorporated into the Imperial Fists as well.  So we have more than 3 genetic lineages potentially sowing confusion in the mix that is IF successors.

 

Officially I do not believe we will ever know.  And we quickly fall into an argument of nature versus nurture.  
 

I think there is enough here to guess though.  And I’ll admit, this could be something or nothing at all.  And I hope it stays that way.  
 

I think the first thing you have to do is understand the Legion prior to the coming of Rogal Dorn.  What were they like, what was their character?  Did that character seemingly gel with the Primarch when he was found?  For the Fists I would argue that’s a solid yes.  Now, Pre Heresy are there elements that seem at odds?  And I would argue… yes.

 

1) Both the Terran Fists and the Inwit culture seem to indicate a similar mindset as well.

 

2) The Phalanx Warders, as described, seem like ideologues of this kind of character.  No trinkets or honors… just no nonsense and duty.

 

3) The Templars however… are seemingly an oddity.  In the midst of the no nonsense, no frills legion… we have a group that seems to be all about various visual trappings and a very religious vibe.  We know that the Templars were created after Dorn took command, but we don’t know how long after.

 

4). We also know that the Fists had a trope of painting their armor black in mourning… and I wonder if that could have a connection to Black Shields… or adopted sons… or the debacles that are related to the Lost Legions.  
 

Theory:

 

In the novel Crimson Fist, Dorn disowns Sigismund and claims he is not his son.  Now on the surface, we know that this is because of Sigismunds decisions and we also know that this rift is mended later on.  However, I think the story, in this context, could paint a deeper picture.  The whole story is really the contrast between Sigismund and Alexis Polux.  One is a true Imperial Fist and one isn’t.  And it came down to how and why they followed orders.  Instinctively.  IF Dorn and Sigismund were mind wiped, they wouldn’t know… but what if Dorn’s accusation and admonishment was more true than either of them realized?

 

In Flight of the Eisenstein, what was the word that was used that Rogal Dorn focused on when the surviving loyalists were trying to convince Dorn of what had happened?  Faith.  I don’t think it was a thing he held, but could potentially be a thing that connects to a lost Brother?

 

I think one of the Lost Legions were very Knightly and/or Faith Based.  Very Word Bearer esq.  I think the Templars are descendants of a fallen Brother.  I think Sigismund is as well.
 

As for the other?  I also don't know.  But I think the key is to look at the successors of both the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists and see if you can find a theme.  And I think there is a potential theme.  I think it could be argued that Howling Griffons are very knightly and “could” fit the Templar mold.  But there is a group of Primogenitor chapters that seem “weird” for Ultramarines.  Mortifactors and Doom Eagles come to my mind.  Silver Skulls… and maybe even the Novamarines.  Is there an Imperial Fist successor chapter that comes across as barbaric, death focused… or reliant on Portants?  Executioners?  Maybe.  Soul Drinkers?  What if Sigismund and Fafnir Rann were so close because they were both adopted brothers incorporated into the Legion around the same time?

 

The issue here is… if it is indeed true that Rogal Dorn had the two missing organs removed prior to the siege… then this being a marker of IF purity is not really reliable.  Then we are forced to walk a fine line between nature and nurture.  There is no reason a legitimate Ultramarine stock couldn’t produce highly religious or barbaric portent reliant marines.  It comes down to the people they recruit and the worlds they come from.  And in some instances authors go out of their way to show this.  And it cannot be denied.

 

I think the Forgeworld book on the Imperial Fists says something key here… that the IF geneseed seemingly requires a certain kind of character to survive it… and as a result the Legion has a character that is very definable.  So is it possible that true IF geneseed will always create marines with the character of the pre Dorn Imperial Fists?  It’s possible.  But it is also stated that this could come down to the traditions enshrined via the recruitment process as well.  
 

It’s up in the air.  But I will also say this… adopted sons are still sons.  They are still Imperial Fists.  They are inheritors to everything the VII legion represents.  So ultimately I don’t think it matters.  And I think Dorn comes to this understanding (even if he doesn’t understand it on this level) when he makes amends with Sigismund.

 

Its fun to discuss anyway.

[Lord_Caerolion]

There’s always been a bit of knightly influence to the Imperial Fists as well, the Black Templars are essentially just Scouring-era Dorn. 

[Emperor's Angel]

Are they, or is Dorn more like them in this instance?

 

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/II.html
 

Here is a link to a fascinating project that sought to correspond the various tarot cards to each Primarch.  I cannot speak the validity of this, but I must admit… it seemingly connects with me and my understanding of the Primarchs.

 

Lets focus on the three in questions

 

The Sun is Rogal Dorn.  I’ll copy the relative relationships the other two have with The Sun.

 

The High Priestess is unknown.  Potentially a very strong pair, the Sun working more in the public light and the High Priestess behind the scenes.
 

 

Fortune Is the other unknown.  The Sun and Fortune are much alike, though the Sun is rather more balanced, centred and self controlled.

Notice that Dorn, going by this, should be more balanced, centered and self controlled.  But Dorn in the Scouring is none of those.  He is a broken man who is fueled by guilt, loss, and vengeance.  I would argue… that this Dorn is almost exactly like his brother Fortune.  Only returning to more like his balanced self after his revelations in the Pain Glove and his vision of the Emperor.

 
Furthermore:

 

Expansive, generous, fun-loving and maybe a little boisterous. While he can seem very straightforward, he is a much deeper thinker than most recognise and can occasionally startle people with a calm, deeply reasoned insight. One of the most understanding of people's need for faith.

An optimist, with great faith in those around him and humanity as a whole. Might be a little overly trusting in people's good nature, and overconfident not only in himself but in those around him.

Does not appreciate being restricted, any may have a relaxed attitude to formal rules and regulations. However, will have a keen sense of right and wrong. He understands that true order cannot be achieved through stasis and must allow some flexibility.

 

I feel that there are things here that stick out to me as potential descriptors of the Black Templars.  Understanding of the need for faith (that same word that caused Dorn to contemplate in Flight of the Eisenstein.). Also straightforward (charge!) But also doesn’t appreciate restrictions and formal rules (We all know how the Templars feel about Guillimans Codex lol).  And what did Dorn say about Sigismund and his courage… sometimes it outstrips his abilities… heh.

 

But also, check out this blurb about the Tower (Angron) and his relationship with Fortune:

Fortune tends to be over trusting that the Tower has thought before acting, and may defend him. The Tower might well abuse Fortune's trust to gain freedom to act where his other brothers would try to rein him in.

 

Why does this seem to make me think about the relationship with Sigismund and the World Eaters (like Khârn).

 

I think there are dots here that connect very well.  But admittedly it comes down to how you read this and interpret it.  It could be something.  It could be nothing.

 

I am of the opinion that Sigismund and the Templars are descendants of Fortune.  Whoever he was.  Notice how the alchemical of Fortune is Tin.  Which is silver.  If I had to guess this legion’s name… it would be Silver Templars.  But wait… there is a Silver Templars… but that can’t be… they are Ultramarine successors… but wait… didn’t the ultramarines absorb some of these marines potentially?  Yup.  And these guys almost sound like Black Templars in their own right…

 

Cawl you son of a!!!!  Oh yeah, he did this on purpose.  We need to cross examine Black and Silver geneseed… now!!! lol.

[Pacific81]

Read on as this will be the closest I think we will ever have to an 'official' release on the subject

 

Back in the mid-late 00's there was a group of pre-Heresy enthusiasts on a forum known as the Great Crusade (Emperor rest its soul). This formed sometimes before the official FW minis and books, everything was mini conversions and community-written adaptations of 40k. The forum was run by Laurie Goulding who was trying to get into BL I think at the time and was helping with editing and other things. We had a narrative event organised called 'Assault on Gedren Prime', which was set during the Crusade and featured several Legions bringing a previously lost branch of humanity back into compliance. Laurie managed to get Graham McNeil to write some background for the event (which was super cool) - we didn't get that much detail but the Primarch name, which was 'Malibron' - one guy had a home brew Legion force (yellow, blue and red!) so those became the 'un-named Legion' in that event! As it happens his forces got pretty much totalled during the event and this got written into the story as Malibron being taken back to Terra in chains (he had been a bad boy..) by the attending Russ and his Wolves.

There was also a very tenuous mention in a later short story, where Horus tries to speak the name of his lost brother but is struck down by Malcador (we just get an 'M....' !) And I'm not sure but ADB may have referenced the 'first ever' marine-on-marine combat in one part of his stories, which was Wolves Vs World Eaters and again happened during the event.

All a bit of fun really but pretty cool as a lot of the stuff was being written at the time.

 

There was a bit more to it and it's published on my old blog if I can find the login for the thing - if there is any interest I will put some more in a thread!

Edited March 6 by Pacific81

[EverythingIsGreat]

I was a member (don't remember my handle though... eh). Laurie was one of the moderators and eventually did go to work for BL. I remember the lost legions being discussed frequently, but to me the board was more important for early attempts to establish a chronology of the HH both in-universe and in real-world (ie relevant official publication/sources and publishing dates). Also I remember early order-of-reading HH lists by Tymell, and a pretty extensive listing of GC Expedition Fleets and their ships.

 

IIRC, the board ceased after the HH Series hit its stride, and FW got into it with the official supplement. I suppose the Great Crusade had lost its topicality.

[EverythingIsGreat]

To go back on-topic, the 2nd ed. Age of Darkness rulebook (2022) has late lore on the Primarchs (including the short section "The Forgotten and the Purged" about the two missing legions on page 17). Predictably, the lore is subtly self-contradictory, offering certainty about X in one page and countering that certainty about X a few pages later. Nicely done.