Horus Heresy Solar Auxilia Armoured Battery (Basilisk & Medusa)

[roryokane]

These are great. I suspect they'll see some use in 40K too!

[OttoVonAwesome]

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

Just a shame the rules for it are a hot garbage fire. 

Geussing you've never had to play against 3 of them before.

[Noserenda]

9 minutes ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Geussing you've never had to play against 3 of them before.

I have because our group did a joint Iron warriors army years ago so older artillery tanks are pretty common in our gaming group. I felt pretty bad for him honestly. 

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Noserenda said:

I have because our group did a joint Iron warriors army years ago so older artillery tanks are pretty common in our gaming group. I felt pretty bad for him honestly. 

In fairness, blasts and artillery were overpowered in first edition. They needed toning down and thankfully 2.0 has done. They're still good, they're just no longer broken.

[Dark Legionnare]

48 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

In fairness, blasts and artillery were overpowered in first edition. They needed toning down and thankfully 2.0 has done. They're still good, they're just no longer broken.

The Basilisks in 2.0 for aux are quite pants against anything other than other Aux and militia. Especially at their eye watering pts costs. Same with the dracosans w/demolisher.

 

I do agree they were overtuned in 1.0; if you didn't have flanking forces (pods, drills, etc...) or planes they could be a huge barrier to fun. They definitely overcorrected a lot of blast template sources across the board in 2.0 though.

 

My three aux basilisks, and demo dracosans, do diddly in 2.0 without panoptica points and rules adjustments.  The panop changes are what they should've done; theyre juuuuust dangerous and pointed well enough to do a deed without feeling oppressive.

 

 

All that aside, these kits are gorgeous. I'm sorely tempted to replace my old resin ones with these. The interior compartment stuff especially is enticing~

Edited February 23 by Dark Legionnare

[Petitioner's City]

Auxilia artillery tank also weirdly have bs4, the only one other than the command tank to do so. They almost are the same as the - useless - legion ones, except of course they lack Legiones Astartes (X), which can benefit tanks (iron hands, etc). Overall both legion and auxilia ones are bad - in comparison, earthshaker platforms (the auxilia legacy fortification) are much less bad.  However all pale in a game which has the fantastic scorpius, and even normal whirlwinds, available to marines.

[Mandragola]

These are wonderful models with rubbish rules - or perhaps ok rules if they cost 100-120 points instead of 200. 

 

They're clearly going all in with this SA release, producing loads of kits in plastic for them before they've finished the marine range (e.g. outstanding sicaran variants). Unfortunately the support the faction has in rules is really inadequate. It's a faction that has massive trouble handling marines, which is a problem when the vast majority of armies are marines.

 

SA armies tend to just look like big car parks rather than the massed infantry ranks they're supposed to have, as the infantry have always been both expensive and difficult to paint. At least now they won't be too expensive but it's still not going to be easy getting lots of infantry on the board and it isn't actually very effective anyway.

 

It's possible the new campaign book will fix some of the issues, for example by introducing warlord traits and advanced reactions. I hope the faction gets rules to match its models soon.

[Noserenda]

Sa armies have always tended to be tank heavy due to cost, but weirdly neither human army can be purely AV unlike marines, which makes me chuckle :D 

Artillery in 1st was mostly fine, it hit hard sure but it was also typically made of glass so if you hit back it evaporated. The problem was the Scorpius and super heavies, who were much tougher. Most of the super heavies also got nerfed at least halfway to oblivion but somehow the Scorpius remains brutal... Never understood why it randomly got up armoured in the first place! 

But yeah arty in 2nd got tripled nerfed and points increased, like, unless you are fighting Guard its almost entirely worthless? It cant really hurt vehicles, nearly all infantry get saves and its eye wateringly expensive. In what world is that good?

[Brother Sutek]

Well sadly like the Draconian, that I was going to buy five, these are beautiful models but subpar rules. I'd love to sink my hobby money into buying some, I am a long time field artillery man, but esp versus the group I play they will just be free points. Either cut their points or fix their stats.  I do love the models.

[Petitioner's City]

1 minute ago, Brother Sutek said:

Well sadly like the Draconian, that I was going to buy five, these are beautiful models but subpar rules. I'd love to sink my hobby money into buying some, I am a long time field artillery man, but esp versus the group I play they will just be free points. Either cut their points or fix their stats.  I do love the models.

 

Your best answer is probably this, since Specialist Games seem disinclined to do any fixing.

[Brother Sutek]

2 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

 

Your best answer is probably this, since Specialist Games seem disinclined to do any fixing.

I think we discussed this before? I've been slowing adding 3rd party rules ideas to my group as have a few others.  We don't play in the wild anymore so there is no worry about new people feeling cheated with us using different rules. I honestly just want balance. If the artillery stays the same game effect then price should go down, if it improves prices stays the same. SA vehicles tend to be extremely overpriced unlike last edition but now aren't very good. Ok I'll stop beating the dead horse.

[Redcomet]

Rules are temporary. In a couple of years it will be HH 3.0 and they might be OP again

[LameBeard]

18 minutes ago, Redcomet said:

Rules are temporary. In a couple of years it will be HH 3.0 and they might be OP again

Yeah or some random Rite of War (or whatever it’s called for SA) will be introduced in a campaign book which will buff them all to heck - I can’t see them doing much with points yet though. although it would be low cost for them to sneak out new points for the Legions versions in the Legacy doc, that would the en make SA look even worse in comparison. They nerfed Fulmentarius so keep up the complaints and it might happen …

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

3 hours ago, Noserenda said:

Sa armies have always tended to be tank heavy due to cost, but weirdly neither human army can be purely AV unlike marines, which makes me chuckle :D 

Artillery in 1st was mostly fine, it hit hard sure but it was also typically made of glass so if you hit back it evaporated. The problem was the Scorpius and super heavies, who were much tougher. Most of the super heavies also got nerfed at least halfway to oblivion but somehow the Scorpius remains brutal... Never understood why it randomly got up armoured in the first place! 

But yeah arty in 2nd got tripled nerfed and points increased, like, unless you are fighting Guard its almost entirely worthless? It cant really hurt vehicles, nearly all infantry get saves and its eye wateringly expensive. In what world is that good?

A lesson I have learned 20 years ago: Don´t take GW´s rules as holy scripture. Find out what´s not working and replace it with something which makes more sense in your local gaming group.

[Noserenda]

3 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

A lesson I have learned 20 years ago: Don´t take GW´s rules as holy scripture. Find out what´s not working and replace it with something which makes more sense in your local gaming group.

Oh i most certainly do, no point in discussing our house rules on here, we need to use the common reference point :D 

[Brother Sutek]

6 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

A lesson I have learned 20 years ago: Don´t take GW´s rules as holy scripture. Find out what´s not working and replace it with something which makes more sense in your local gaming group.

Exactly! We still play 7th edition 40k but with a serious lack of nonsense allowed. One thing I always wanted to field was the Baron from the Dark Eldar book. He disappeared from the rules but I have a third party mini for him and my friends have no issue with me using him. It goes without saying I don't field him with an Eldar Seer Council on jetbikes or any other broken good stuff. Weird how we have fun.

[Joe]

21 hours ago, Petitioner's City said:

Your best answer is probably this, since Specialist Games seem disinclined to do any fixing.

 

To be fair, Middle-earth and Blood Bowl actually receive rules FAQs/Erratas/Updates on a semi-regular basis (semiannual for the former); although that's more tied to both of those games having very active competitive communities, rather than leaning narrative like Heresy and Necromunda.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Ya i guess when people get screamed down for asking about unclear/new mechanical interactions in various 30k groups and told to go back to 40k for asking, and not to think in those terms since it's a "narrative" game, then there's no pressure to fix issues. Why spend resources to fix an issue tons of people just pretend don't exist and use the old mechanics for anyways?

Edited February 25 by Lord_Ikka

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

7 hours ago, Joe said:

 

To be fair, Middle-earth and Blood Bowl actually receive rules FAQs/Erratas/Updates on a semi-regular basis (semiannual for the former); although that's more tied to both of those games having very active competitive communities, rather than leaning narrative like Heresy and Necromunda.

Blood Bowl´s Living Rulebook was a real masterpiece. There wasn´t hardly anything serious to bitch about. This happens when dedicated people take the hobby in their own hands.

[Marshal Mittens]

Pants rules, to be sure, but taking 1 to 3 in a 3k game won't lose you most games, and it's not like they give our prizes for friendly games. If you run Solar Aux and like the models, play some. Not every list has to be hyper tuned. 

[Noserenda]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Pants rules, to be sure, but taking 1 to 3 in a 3k game won't lose you most games, and it's not like they give our prizes for friendly games. If you run Solar Aux and like the models, play some. Not every list has to be hyper tuned. 

Oh definitely, but this is far past hyper tuned and well into "actively punishes you" territory, i think you should be able to field any models youve bought for your army and not consistently regret including them because some of the team writing it decided they dont want artillery (except the scorpius) in their game any more.

And they do give out prizes, the prize is the friends you make along the way :P 

And yeah, ive really grown to dislike "its a more narrative game" because it really is an awful combination of a shield for poor design and a cudgel for people having "wrongfun" ive not been a competitive gamer for years but im not so bitter i cant acknowledge that people enjoy it, and more power to them! 

Edited February 25 by Noserenda

[OttoVonAwesome]

Welp I dunno if they are worth thier points either against marines but I have seen them totally decimate tightly packed 20 man troop blobs. The scorpius is stupidly busted no way it should be 120 points. I'd like to see artillery's get a rending value regardless of what it is but I dunno about adjusting points or doing anything too crazy cuase it's gonna result in them being insanely OP against SA and Militia and anything with lower than 3+ save. Most of these things are still like S 9 and basilisk has shred so it's instant death if you fail those saves. Medusa is prolly the better of the two cuase it pins.

 

I dunno why anyone would say they aren't good against vehicles either at S9 it's not too hard to get a pen or strip off a hull point. One of the only reasons I'd use them against marines is that kind of versatility in a 3-3.5k game. But honestly they really are for fighting other guard type armies an Executioner is gonna pick up more marines and a Demolisher cannons and Rapier lasers are gonna hurt vehicles and dreads more although the pin from the Medusa makes it alot less niche.

 

I really wish 2.0 luanched with plastic Solar Aux like LI. Rules for Skitarrii we been waiting for would be nice too what's been like 6 years since they said they were working on that? I don't think we need like a hundred factions like 40k but it would be nice. I'm really looking forward to SA plastic and hope it's not too long before Admech gets the same treatment. Like current Marine heavy meta I despise tactical marines even in shooting heavy legions I think despoilers are 100% the better choice. There's so many weapons and units I'm overlooking cuase of it. I know I keep circling back to it's not the unit it's the meta but gotta admit it's pretty true. I do like that marines being walking tanks are quite good at assailing artillery positions and I don't want that to change.

[SkimaskMohawk]

9 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

Welp I dunno if they are worth thier points either against marines but I have seen them totally decimate tightly packed 20 man troop blobs. The scorpius is stupidly busted no way it should be 120 points. I'd like to see artillery's get a rending value regardless of what it is but I dunno about adjusting points or doing anything too crazy cuase it's gonna result in them being insanely OP against SA and Militia and anything with lower than 3+ save.

 

You can fit about 19 marines under a large blast if you really try your best to accomodate one. A basilisk kills an average of 8 and a medusa an average of 6.5; that's a pretty low return for literally the best case hit scenario. The Scorpius exists and is a comparison point; it kills an average of 10 for 80 points less. But let's ignore that for a second and go to the rapier battery; for 180 you get 3 quad mortars with basic shells which have the same large blast template and shred. You average 16.55 dead power armour models in the same best case clump formation the medusa/basilisk were taking advantage of to get their numbers. Other artillery already is crazy powerful against solar auxilia and militia, as even pretending that you'll only max out at 19 smaller based models that are encouraged to clump, two of those rapiers basically kill the entire unit off for equivalent points. 

 

And people take the Scorpius a lot, as it's one of the best ways to deal with lascannons. Its a staple unit and the other artillery is going to be measured against it, especially for instant death purposes. 

 

10 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

I dunno why anyone would say they aren't good against vehicles either at S9 it's not too hard to get a pen or strip off a hull point. One of the only reasons I'd use them against marines is that kind of versatility in a 3-3.5k game.

 

Because 200 points for a single hull point or pen that can't explode isn't good. Especially not in the world of las-with-sunder and armoured ceramiteless vehicles to compare results to. A charging marine with a chain sword can kill a rhino in less turns than a medusa or basilisk; you need to spend 600 points to have a real shot at dropping 3 hull points from that rhino. 1/5 of your list at 3k to be versatile into a rhino isn't very good, or really versatile. Take falchion for 650 and actually burn stuff down that you touch with the large blast.

 

10 hours ago, OttoVonAwesome said:

But honestly they really are for fighting other guard type armies an Executioner is gonna pick up more marines and a Demolisher cannons and Rapier lasers are gonna hurt vehicles and dreads more although the pin from the Medusa makes it alot less niche.

 

And they're worse at fighting GEQ than the rapier and Scorpius lol. Like idk, the executioner and Demolisher are also severely unattractive. The executioner falls off against heavy infantry, while the Demolisher is praying the heavy infantry clumps together so it can get a couple of hits (it certainly is just as bad into vehicles, and is very unattractive into dreads with an average of 0.43 unsaved wounds per hit). It's also kinda funny that solar aux really don't need help killing other solar aux infantry, since all their las have a STR 6 ap4 mode; the perfect instant death and ignore armour threshold already. And when you look at the math the the 2 shot profile has more of a chance of killing a Terminator than a medusa shell, which might be the secret of why people are so hard on these artillery pieces.

 

 

[Xanthous]

Is it possible that we might see some updated rules for existing units, like the Basilisk, in the Battle for Beta-Garmon supplement? They'll already be including entirely new rules for the Sentinels, and having enjoyable rules for artillery would improve the returns of GW's costly investment into plastic.

[Xirix]

They updated some of the more god-awful things in the Legacies PDF (like the Attack Bike) semi-recently, so I don't see why updating things in the Libers would be off the table. Whether they do or not though...