Games with the new DA codex.

[Prot]

I would agree with a lot of that, however the Ravenwing might just be the most 'efficient' of the detachments. I agree that the units are lackluster, but for me the selling point is the detachment rule (which is good for scoring) extends to all units (I believe).

 

So in theory a Ravenwing list SHOULD look a certain way, but as you mention it probably won't. However the rule might be worth testing on a larger scale (non-Dark Angel units) to get some serious scoring potential.

 

As far as Inner Circle: 

46 minutes ago, Raychu said:

For them, the deathing detachement gives too much info to your opponent to really be useful.

 

If what you mean by this is the detachment strongly projects its intent, then I completely agree and this is what I've been saying: The Vowed Objective is a decent rule. Not great, and I believe very limited to "Deathwing" keyword, but it's so easy to avoid. 

 

In fact I've had games where things aren't going well for my DA, but my opponent being stubborn insists on pouring onto an objective I've "Vowed". This gives me a slight advantage, but he refused to avoid it, and there's where my best scoring was. In fact in some games I've literally told my opponent, "If you avoid that objective, you win!"

 

The Deathwing Inner Circle Detachment is close, but falls short with projecting so much intent. (The beauty of "Oath" is you simply pick any unit, where as a Vowed Objective assumes your opponent must interact with you on that spot.) Also the main units this detachment leverages are just too lethargic and over pointed. 

 

I don't think I'll ever come around on the Unforgiven (greenwing) detachment. I stopped trying to make it work BEFORE the codex came out, and now the dataslates have been turned down even more, so there's even less incentive for me to try to make it work.

 

With Ultra I was winning over half my games. With the DA codex/detachments I'm at the lowest win rate I've been in for 10th edition. This might be stubborn (suitably so?) but I refuse to play the Gladius or Emperor forbid, the Ironstorm lists that are unrealistically improving the horrid "Dark Angels" win rates. 

 

 

[ashc]

Moving forwards this needs to be how the space marine supplements are judged - if the incentive is not strong enough to run at least one of the book's detachments with a handful of their chapter-specific units then it's a failure.

 

 

[Harleqvin]

Something else I thought a little strange was they didn’t give the inner circle/Desthwing detachment the ability to make the three base DA TDA units all objective scoring (edit - mean battleline.) similar-like they did with the Ravenwing one.

 

would that have made it too powerful?

Edited March 27 by Harleqvin

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, Harleqvin said:

Something else I thought a little strange was they didn’t give the inner circle/Desthwing detachment the ability to make the three base DA TDA units all objective scoring similar-like they did with the Ravenwing one.

 

would that have made it too powerful?

Dark Angels can bring, what, a total of 12 Terminator-type squads in any force? Ravenwing can bring 9 bike-type squads normally, but that goes up to 12 when Outriders gain Battleline. Seems like it was more of a consistency thing.

[Malakithe]

@Prot maybe you can try DA Firestorm? Ive been trying to brainstorm Firestorm lists for a while now with various Chapters so maybe DA could work. Like many detachments you dont have to lean into the flamer aspect. The +1S might work for certain things? Who knows...

 

So the DA specific units that work well are...Azrael and Darkshrouds lol

[CCE1981]

I have been running Firestorm since the Codex came out.  You don’t need to lean on torrent weapons.  That + 1 str for a majority of units doesn’t do much, but when it does mean something it REALLY means something.  I had a near zero winrate with Gladius, it suffers from too much of put all your eggs into the one basket Fire Discipline, and only one Doctrine mattering every game, one every other game, and the last never ever mattering in the slightest.  Firestorm, you build a list with multiple threats, giving you massive board coverage and threats everywhere.  Every unit can be a threat, and that what makes it shine, no need to have a deathstar, your opponent is taking losses no matter what they hit.  Keeping your damage output pretty reliable.

[Prot]

So I guess we're throwing in the towel on the codex itself? 

 

If you were to go back to the Marines codex, and use the Firestorm detachment, what would be the Dark Angels units that make this work better for us than other chapters? Or are we just suggesting this because it's better than the Codex which is apparently quite a low bar.

 

 

[CCE1981]

Darkshrouds and Black Knights.  I think Black Knights do get a ton out of Firestorm.  Str 8 plasma without overcharge, Onslaught of Fire and Crucible of Battle both bring a lot for them, and then three of the enhancements would do pretty good on a Black Knight Command Squad. Crucible of Battle will help that squad a lot if the unit wants to charge non-Vehicle and -Monsters.

[Karhedron]

I think it is the Detachments that are sub-par (although Ravenwing may have some play). The Codex contains some good units. If you are playing a non-specific Chapter then Azrael is probably better than a generic Captain because his free +1CP per turn is pretty strong. Here is a list of what I would consider "strong" units from the Codex (feel free to disagree and nominate other candidates).

• Azrael
• Dark Shroud
• Black Knights
• Ravenwing Command squad (especially when added to the above).

[CCE1981]

I have only really gotten into theory crafting for Black Knights, but I am thinking that a Ravenwing Command squad and 3-man Black Knight Squad would be more ideal than a 6-man squad.  Mostly because of the amount of area that unit would cover.  Nine bike models is a huge footprint, and I doubt you would be able to get that many models into a fight.

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, Prot said:

If you were to go back to the Marines codex, and use the Firestorm detachment, what would be the Dark Angels units that make this work better for us than other chapters?

 

Initial thoughts from looking over the firestorm detachment and our units:

• Deathwing Knights and a Captain in Terminator Armour. The Captain gives reroll Charge distance and can use Rites of Battle to get the Crucible of Battle stratagem for 0 CP, giving the unit +1 to wound. They're already a solid defensive unit, and this boosts their offense. The Rapid Embarkation stratagem helps with mobility once they are on the table.
• Deathwing Terminators aren't that different from normal Terminators, but they'd work well with the +1 Strength to ranged weapons within 12" (Deep Strike or pop out of a Land Raider). Thirty-two Str5 storm bolter shots, assuming you use Crucible of Battle, could do work.
• Deathwing Terminators on foot with a Librarian in Terminator Armour. The unit has Assault because of the detachment rule and Sustained Hits 1 from the Librarian; becoming a surprising mobile force that throws out a lot of shots.
• Azrael with Hellblasters in a transport. Rocket the transport forward and when it gets shot at, use Burning Vengeance to pop out close enough to benefit from Rapid Fire 1 and +1 Strength on the Hellblasters.
• Land Speeder Vengeance playing danger close, to get the overcharged plasma battery up to Str10.
• As @CCE1981 noted, Black Knights and Ravenwing Command Squads. 

Oddly enough I think a better option would be Stormlance detachment. There's the obvious synergy with all the mounted Ravenwing units, but take look at what we get for our other units:

• Inner Circle Companions and Deathwing Knights can Advance and Charge and Fall Back and Charge. Attach a character with Portents of Wisdom enhancement and they can reroll the Advance roll. Deathwing Knights which can Fall Back from a tar pit and Charge elsewhere could be worth more consideration.
• Deathwing Terminators using the Blitzing Fusillade stratagem to give all their ranged weapons Assault.
• Wind-Swift Evasion on any Terminator unit is hilarious.

[Tacitus]

On 3/26/2024 at 11:36 PM, Harleqvin said:

Something else I thought a little strange was they didn’t give the inner circle/Desthwing detachment the ability to make the three base DA TDA units all objective scoring (edit - mean battleline.) similar-like they did with the Ravenwing one.

 

would that have made it too powerful?

Doubly so that they didn't add +1 OC to Terminator and/or X-Guard Units.  Bikes are naturally OC2 - Terminators and other veterans are OC1.

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

I have only really gotten into theory crafting for Black Knights, but I am thinking that a Ravenwing Command squad and 3-man Black Knight Squad would be more ideal than a 6-man squad.  Mostly because of the amount of area that unit would cover.  Nine bike models is a huge footprint, and I doubt you would be able to get that many models into a fight.

 

Fighting with them is secondary.  Its a GOOD secondary, but I'm looking to Fire Discipline the Plasma Talons on overcharge if I'm running Black Knights.   After that I'll charge whatever's left and basket weave my way into engagement range. 

[Karhedron]

I feel it is slightly sad that the use of any decently shooty unit always falls back to Fire Discipline. It's ubiquity seems to skew the entire faction around it. 

 

Sustained Hits triggering on a 5+ is great but it seems like you are losing half the benefit if you take it on a unit that does not have Lethal Hits. Or is there a way to give Black Knights LHs?

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I feel it is slightly sad that the use of any decently shooty unit always falls back to Fire Discipline. It's ubiquity seems to skew the entire faction around it. 

 

Sustained Hits triggering on a 5+ is great but it seems like you are losing half the benefit if you take it on a unit that does not have Lethal Hits. Or is there a way to give Black Knights LHs?

There is not that I know of, but Black Knights are one of the few that makes it worthwhile to go without because of the quality of the shots.  9x A2 + RF1 also goes a little further than 10x A2 + LH