An Alternate (?) Look at the Adeptus Mechanicus

[Kage2020]

The recent replies motivated for me to try to grapple with something that I put together back in the day but never finished and, indeed, never get as much put down on paper as I seem to recall. That is, a take on the Adeptus Mechanicus. 

 

Before I try to do that in more fragmentary fashion than some of the other threads (if such a thing is truly possible), a little bit of history is needed on the discussion that centred around the Adeptus Mechanicus and how one could interpret them in the 40k setting.

 

THE ADEPTUS "ME-CAN-ICUS" VS. THE ADEPTUS "ME-CAN'T-ICUS"

 

This was the central historical debate around the Adeptus Mechanicus back in the day. Simply, did the Adeptus Mechanicus understand the technology that they used/created/perpetuated ("can-icus") or was everything blackboxed behind STC or, subsequently, the C'tan ("can't-icus"). As one might imagine, many thousands of words (tens of thousands!?) were posted on the fan forums of the time as to which was the most correct.

 

I think that it's reasonable to suggest that on the "can" side, you had people focused on the tech from the original Rogue Trader* whereas others were more inspired by the "Cassocks in Space"** approach to the Imperium that was focused around the Adeptus Ministorum and "priesthood" via A Canticle for Leibowitz. 

 

* I still love the visual of having crystal control consoles rising on suspensors from the floor of a starship!

 

** This is obviously a prejudiced reference of the Imperium as what amounts to a medievalised version of the Catholic Church... in spaaacce. It's very much focused on the A Canticle for Leibowitz approach to the Adeptus Mechanicus and is what one might think of as the "standard" approach of GW to the orgnaisation.

 

 

SO WHAT CAME OUT OF THAT?

 

Discussion. Lots of it. 

 

Over at the Anargo Sector Project, I advocated for what I considered a "more balanced" approach to the Adeptus Mechanicus. There were other voices at the time that called for something markedly different, including the fun Philip Sibbering with his 40k Concepts (proof, if ever it was needed, that if you marry concepts to artwork you're on for a winner to start with). And for once a great deal of the inspirational materials came from GW in the form of Mechanicum (novel), Titanicus (novel), one by Matt Farrer (part of the Calpurnia novels but I forget which), and what Gav Thorpe had done with the Inquisition (mostly positive, but a mixed bag). Or rather, the inspiration came about after a lot of time was spent discussing the approach and subsequent GW/BL materials happened to fit a lot of that discussion. :)

 

SO, THE FRAGMENTS...

 

The central premise of this alternate (?) approach is that it tries to balance the "can" and "can't" elements of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The proposed answer to this was to focus on the premise of the Mystery Cult, or the notion that the lowest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus were very much on the "can't" side of the continuum. They didn't really know what they were doing. Everything was learned by rote, and prayers and ritualism were used to obfuscate the truth behind the actions. Herein, the "Machine Spirit" (and more broadly "Machine God") were divine premises and referring to animistic principles.

 

As one went up the hierarchy of the Cult Mechanicus, however, you brought in more and more elements of the "can" side of the continuum. Finally, Magos and Archmagos (etc.) had access to the "hidden mysteries" of technical knowledge.

So, the first base. An hierarchical approach to the Cult Mechanicus before one even gets into the difference between lay practitioners and those that are invested into the Cult Mechanicus. 

As an example of this, the Universal Laws of the Adeptus Mechanicus (both Mysteries and Admonitions) are part of the lower-echelons of the Cult Mechanicus and are firmly ensconced in the "can't" side of things---even if there might be some variation in rank access even at this lowest of levels. If one continues to rise through the ranks of the Cult Mechanicus, however, you are introduced to what I refer to as the Derivative Mysteries/Admonitions, and finally to the Prime or Root Mystery/Admonition.

 

TTRPG Note: For those interested in this side of things, the basic gist of how this manifests is that different (Theological) Ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus are restricted in their access to certain broad skill types.  For example, the lowest echelons may only Operate and Repair technology. The next rank up are those that can Build technology. Finally, there are those that have Wildcard access to technical skills, which aggregate those skill into unrealistic combinations (hyper-competence) that also serve to break down Tech Level differences. 

 

THE PHILOSOPOHIES OF THE ADEPTUS MECHANICUS

The "Philosophies" were originally meant to be mirrors to the factions within the Inquisition, at least insofar that they were spiced to how Tech Priests might approach technology. The obvious continuing example would be Philosophies that dabbled with Xenos or Malleus technologies, but a lot of the others seem to have been lost to time.

 

THE BINARY DOGMA OF FACTIONALISM

This deliberately-pretentious term was a stand-in for the obvious conservative/liberal divide in the Adeptus Mechanicus that was suggested from the discussions (back in the day! ;)) and subsequently showed up in novels like Mechanicum. The general gist of this is obvious: the orthodoxy is inherently conservative and leans towards the "can't" interpretation, while the more radical "liberal" approaches get up to shenanigans with technology (like research and exploration). 

 

THE PARADIGMS OF THE ADEPTUS MECHANICUS

Given the importance of Forge Worlds, the "Paradigms" were invented to create a specific confluence of Faction and Philosophy that may become dominant and lead to broad trends (primarily orthodox as radical Forge Worlds would be more contentious). This was a specific part of the Anargo Sector Project, so re-tooling them outside of that is a little bit more challenging but possible.

 

THE TECHNOLOGY OF THE ADEPTUS MECHANICUS

The  novels Mechanicum and Titanicus really started to get into the technological manifestations back in the day and, at least based upon current readings, this now seems to be the norm. The adoption of terms like "binaric cant" is a (sensible, for once) part of this by GW.

 

I'm not sure where I would take this. At the moment my notes started and left with Haptic Interfaces and the Noosphere, but technology has come along since those days. I'm wondering about such things as distributed networks that don't use standard communications infrastructure etc. (You can interpret elements of these from some of the more recent novels).

 

* * * 

And that's where I'm going to leave this one for the moment.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

Very nice writeup. Thank you for sharing these thoughts and the historiography of the debate. And thanks for mentioning Philip Sibbering. His overarching work is new to me, although I have seen some occasional artworks before.

 

The funny thing is that I missed out on the Adeptus Me-Can-Icus and Me-Can't-Icus discussions entirely and so this played no part in my formative thinking, yet your interpretation of higher Mechanicus mysteries meaning a greater amount of real technical knowledge and deeper insight into how things actually work happen to align with how I've read official background for the Adeptus Mechanicus from the very start. And I am sure many others have read it much the same way as well.

 

Yes, there will for sure be religious mysticism of all kinds involved with some mysteries, and all manner of techno-sects and hocus pocus schisms revolving around esoteric stuff not terribly grounded in practical real technology (there will also be bloody schisms revolving around more grounded technological questions, not least relating to innovation and xeno tech). But higher ranks in the priesthood will as a rule mean more actual knowledge of how technologies work the higher you climb the ladder and get initiated into the mysteries. It is regularly talked about in the background, how only the most skilled magi or achmagi can produce this or that, which clearly indicates that they possess greater knowledge of technology, and are not just puffed up bags of authority and nonsense mysticism adorned with a thousand mechadendrites.

 

A balanced approach would be the sensible way to go: The Ad Mech is not completely clueless, but it has also lost knowledge and capabilities to the march of time and the worsening of human intergalactic civilization throughout the fivehundred generations of the mired Age of Imperium. And try as it might with its quest for knowledge, the brightest magi of the Mechanicum never understood all of the recovered technologies at its disposal even during its best of years. A mixed bag.

 

Overall, the development of the Adeptus Mechanicus from intriguing fringe background mentions to a fully fledged codex complete with wacky unit concepts and more background fleshed out for the organization has been handled surprisingly well in official material. Binaric cant is but one aspect.

 

Belisarius Cawl is another matter, since his work goes against the decrepit grain of the setting. But as someone partial to geniuses slaving away in laboratories for ages (something which made me like the Emperor much in the first place), I'm not inclined to complain about Cawl as such.

Edited March 15 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

17 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Belisarius Cawl is another matter, since his work goes against the decrepit grain of the setting. But as someone partial to geniuses slaving away in laboratories for ages (something which made me like the Emperor much in the first place), I'm not inclined to complain about Cawl as such.

 

Does he---it?---really go against the proposed setting, though? He smacks of radicalism to me...

[Karak Norn Clansman]

7 hours ago, Kage2020 said:

 

Does he---it?---really go against the proposed setting, though? He smacks of radicalism to me...

Very much radicalism, which is fine of course. It's more the results of Cawl's works being a pure improvement on all that came before that goes against the grain of the setting. It's too much of a deus ex machina injection, just when it is needed the most. Some inbuilt flaws would have made it a better fit, with some echoes of the Cursed Founding. Maybe even going the distance to make use of some form of failed experiments akin to what Corax had to do, because the desperate times calls for all hands on deck, quickly, and the crisis means the bad batch won't be euthanized but sent into combat.

 

Now, there have long existed a few threads in the setting that hinted at the Emperor eventually intending to create improved Astartes of some form, or at least that the possibility for such improvement existed: What Corvus Corax discovered in the Labyrinth under the Imperial Palace and managed to work into new Raven Guards is one of them, though turned abominations thanks to Alpha Legion machinations. So it is not bereft of foundations in the older background. Hints have long existed that Marines could be improved upon from the handiwork left by the Emperor and His team of genetors.

 

Pure improvement aside, I like Cawl. So I'm willing to overlook GW writing his handiwork too perfect for the decrepit themes of the setting. It is even possible to take an angle that the Primaris Marines, for all their brilliance and power, is in the final analysis a strategic malinvestment: That the Imperium for instance could have been better served by investing many of the vast resources bound up in Primaris expansion in increasing output of lethal special weaponry for their hordes of organized infantry, or some suchlike take. With one obvious parallell being the overengineered Tiger tank contra cost effective Stug investments made by another massmurdering empire on the ropes in real history (with Soviet decisions to switch tank production to the most easily mass produced but sufficiently powerful variant, the T34, and then making the original design even cruder chiming in as well).

 

Which all loops back to the Adeptus Mechanicus, who produce much of the relevant hardware for both Astartes and Militarum. Lords of industry.

 

Also, I am not trying to convert and convince you of my ideas around Cawl and Primaris Marines here. I'm just laying out these thoughts for pinballing discussion. When you get around to take on Primaris Marines as part of Astartes, I want to see your very own take on them. (Just like CDs in the other Warhammer setting have benefitted from having multiple different official renditions through the years, plus all the clever community takes that have been made; the more, the merrier.)

 

Spoiler

Now, if a finger could have been snapped and GW had put some focus (including miniature releases) on showcasing the depths of desperation which the Imperium plunges with their new narrative drive, I would have liked to see roughly this lineup, with more that could be added, but you get the idea:

 

- Primaris Marines. Improved Astartes, bigger and stronger and made to win a war of attrition against mutated and more experienced Chaos Space Marines. The Imperium is after all fixated upon their Archenemy, so this is fine. Let the counterproductive Imperial obsession with Chaos play itself out. And it could be a malinvestment of resources and a logistical headache when Firstborn Astartes sufficed just fine and ate a smaller resource pie.

 

- Failed Primaris experiments herded into battle. Corvus Corax style.

 

- Poorly equipped militia units, including barefoot paramilitary models. Maybe technicals of armed civilian vehicles pressed into Loyalist service. Necromunda kits doing double duty?

 

- Zealot hordes. Flagellants and doomsayers and fanatics throwing themselves unto martyrdom. Complete with descriptions of pogroms and schismatic violence peaking in the dark days of the present.

 

- Imperial Guard with krak lances, budget sentinels, flak shield substitutes for carapace armour for some grenadier units and human bombs as per Rogue Trader. Or somesuch similar depiction of callous and desperate and dysfunctional budget measures being rolled out in response to a slide into doomsday.

 

- Blocking detachments of an NKVD-equivalent in space. Give the Commissars some company.

 

And give the Tau Gue'vesa human auxiliaries to display rats abandoning a sinking ship, or put differently desperate souls clinging for the only alternative offered to the crushing tyranny of the Imperium. Chaos Cultists and Genestealer Cults are already well represented with units and miniatures.

 

Other parts are already long since covered to great effect by the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy's bonkers penitence engines and arco-flagellants.

 

PS. I've read Matt Farrer's short stories Vorax and The Memory of Flesh now. Vorax is real short and might have some fun details in it, but nothing crucial. The Memory of Flesh could be of more interest, due to malfunction and tech-related descriptions. Both are much shorter than The Inheritor King. DS.

Edited March 16 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Very much radicalism, which is fine of course. It's more the results of Cawl's works being a pure improvement on all that came before that goes against the grain of the setting. It's too much of a deus ex machina injection, just when it is needed the most.

 

Again, I'm not even sure whether that is outside of the "meta" of the setting. GW has had  tendency to cram together explanations whenever a new "shiny" (army, or whatever) has come into the mix. I would personally point to the initial materials about the Old Ones and the C'tan. It felt like the whole War in Heaven thing was crammed down the gullets of the fandom*, with the C'tan being shoe-horned in as the presumptive source of all advanced human technology presumably because one of the authors had recently watched Babylon 5 (forgive the 'ole cynicism there).

 

That's not to say that it isn't fun in its own way, but in so doing they removed agency from humans, who clearly couldn't crate advanced technologies without the C'tan, and the Eldar, who went from being the masters of the Webway to unknowledgeable caretakers. 

 

The War in Heaven itself was okaaaay, I guess. The mythological bent had some cool bits, and the notion that the Old Ones might have become shackled to the fate of the Eldar a certain amount of poignance. Or, perhaps more so if they hadn't practically done the same to the C'tan/Necrons.

 

A bit of jinking around, a bit of fan service to return the Old Slann to being the Old Ones---I hesitate to use Traveller's "Grandfather" as an example---and it could be cool except for, of course, the impossible (and I like to think hyperbolic) timelines involved.

 

* TBF they seemed to enjoy it.

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Some inbuilt flaws would have made it a better fit, with some echoes of the Cursed Founding.

 

Well, it was presumably using materials from the Primarchs which itself was a Chaos-tainted project (even if thematically only in terms of hubris on behalf of the Emperor, though this seems to itself have changed over the years as GW writing buys into its own mythology).

 

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Now, there have long existed a few threads in the setting that hinted at the Emperor eventually intending to create improved Astartes of some form, or at least that the possibility for such improvement existed...

 

I'll have to look up that one. I don't recall much mention of Corvus Corax and the Labyrinth, though labelling it as such seems to indicate that it was "after my time". The whole idea of the Emperor trying to pilfer the Webway was a terrible thread form the time that I was giving up on the setting. Alas, a thread that they seemed to have continued with.

 

I will say that one thing that is oft-forgotten is that the Emperor planned the Primarchs to be a replacement for common humanity. (Though that seems to have been the kibosh when they decided to make them over 10' tall---or whatever.)

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Pure improvement aside, I like Cawl.

 

A brilliant radical like that one from Eisenhorn whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

Interject: It's only at this point that I realise that there is a fourth book to the Eisenhorn trilogy. ;)

 

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Also, I am not trying to convert and convince you of my ideas around Cawl and Primaris Marines here.

 

They're just a cudgel to the 40k universe, one that anyone that has been dealing with the setting over the years kind of get used to.

 

At the moment, I really don't have any thoughts about them. They seem... terribly, boringly vanilla with little to rescue them from the doldrums of the Ultramarines.

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Now, if a finger could have been snapped and GW had put some focus (including miniature releases) on showcasing the depths of desperation which the Imperium plunges with their new narrative drive, I would have liked to see roughly this lineup, with more that could be added, but you get the idea:

 

- Primaris Marines. Improved Astartes, bigger and stronger and made to win a war of attrition against mutated and more experienced Chaos Space Marines. The Imperium is after all fixated upon their Archenemy, so this is fine. Let the counterproductive Imperial obsession with Chaos play itself out. And it could be a malinvestment of resources and a logistical headache when Firstborn Astartes sufficed just fine and ate a smaller resource pie.

 

- Failed Primaris experiments herded into battle. Corvus Corax style.

 

- Poorly equipped militia units, including barefoot paramilitary models. Maybe technicals of armed civilian vehicles pressed into Loyalist service. Necromunda kits doing double duty?

 

- Zealot hordes. Flagellants and doomsayers and fanatics throwing themselves unto martyrdom. Complete with descriptions of pogroms and schismatic violence peaking in the dark days of the present.

 

- Imperial Guard with krak lances, budget sentinels, flak shield substitutes for carapace armour for some grenadier units and human bombs as per Rogue Trader. Or somesuch similar depiction of callous and desperate and dysfunctional budget measures being rolled out in response to a slide into doomsday.

 

- Blocking detachments of an NKVD-equivalent in space. Give the Commissars some company.

 

And give the Tau Gue'vesa human auxiliaries to display rats abandoning a sinking ship, or put differently desperate souls clinging for the only alternative offered to the crushing tyranny of the Imperium. Chaos Cultists and Genestealer Cults are already well represented with units and miniatures.

 

Other parts are already long since covered to great effect by the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy's bonkers penitence engines and arco-flagellants.

 

That all seems reasonable. The Imperium reacting with changing strategies and tactics would be an amusing strategy for GW. :) 

 

On 3/16/2024 at 3:23 AM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

PS. I've read Matt Farrer's short stories Vorax and The Memory of Flesh now. Vorax is real short and might have some fun details in it, but nothing crucial. The Memory of Flesh could be of more interest, due to malfunction and tech-related descriptions. Both are much shorter than The Inheritor King. DS.

 

With Face, Magos, and some of the other war-focused slogs, it's taking me quite some time to make it through the recommendations. I'll just chalk these up to be read at a later date, if then.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

20 hours ago, Kage2020 said:

 

Again, I'm not even sure whether that is outside of the "meta" of the setting. GW has had  tendency to cram together explanations whenever a new "shiny" (army, or whatever) has come into the mix. I would personally point to the initial materials about the Old Ones and the C'tan. It felt like the whole War in Heaven thing was crammed down the gullets of the fandom*, with the C'tan being shoe-horned in as the presumptive source of all advanced human technology presumably because one of the authors had recently watched Babylon 5 (forgive the 'ole cynicism there).

 

That's not to say that it isn't fun in its own way, but in so doing they removed agency from humans, who clearly couldn't crate advanced technologies without the C'tan, and the Eldar, who went from being the masters of the Webway to unknowledgeable caretakers. 

 

The War in Heaven itself was okaaaay, I guess. The mythological bent had some cool bits, and the notion that the Old Ones might have become shackled to the fate of the Eldar a certain amount of poignance. Or, perhaps more so if they hadn't practically done the same to the C'tan/Necrons.

 

A bit of jinking around, a bit of fan service to return the Old Slann to being the Old Ones---I hesitate to use Traveller's "Grandfather" as an example---and it could be cool except for, of course, the impossible (and I like to think hyperbolic) timelines involved.

 

* TBF they seemed to enjoy it.

 

For sure. An apt description of the War in Heaven background, with its warts and flaws and better sides. GW has long tended to do this, and the removal of agency for rule of cool gods stuff remain a strange choice.

 

Spoiler

As a parallell Ogres in WHFB were given the meteor-crashed Great Maw deity as the reason for their ravenous hunger, which according to one Warhammer veteran amounted to GW trying too hard where Ogres were better hungry just because they were Ogres (but the rest of the army book was most fine in every way, and weaved the faction into the wider setting).

 

I sometimes wonder if the axing of agency for the sake of entire species and civilizations bound up in the will of some godhood is a conscious decision of making mortals the pawns of gods, as an ancient mythological reference played up with exaggeration? It is not something I would be inclined to do when worldbuilding; keep it grounded amid all the fantastic stuff, is my motto, but Games Workshop have their own way of writing things. So often it comes down to cherrypicking the better parts and emphasising them for headcanon.

 

Quote

Well, it was presumably using materials from the Primarchs which itself was a Chaos-tainted project (even if thematically only in terms of hubris on behalf of the Emperor, though this seems to itself have changed over the years as GW writing buys into its own mythology).

 

For sure. GW buying into its own mythology has given some sweet fruits in regard to the origin of the Primarchs. It is subjective for sure, but in my eyes the Faustian pact is a nice touch that adds yet another layer of irony to the background. Nevermind the cliché; if it works, it works.

 

Quote

I'll have to look up that one. I don't recall much mention of Corvus Corax and the Labyrinth, though labelling it as such seems to indicate that it was "after my time". The whole idea of the Emperor trying to pilfer the Webway was a terrible thread form the time that I was giving up on the setting. Alas, a thread that they seemed to have continued with.

 

Possibly, although I believe this background of the Labyrinth and Corax' desperate gene-experiments scuppered by Alpha Legion infiltration may have first showed up circa 2005 or suchlike in a White Dwarf article. Years before the Horus Heresy drive when GW truly began to swallow their own in-setting propaganda and made actual giants out of Primarchs. The Webway project is a strange thread.

 

Quote

I will say that one thing that is oft-forgotten is that the Emperor planned the Primarchs to be a replacement for common humanity. (Though that seems to have been the kibosh when they decided to make them over 10' tall---or whatever.)

 

Indeed! This, and a few other scattered pieces among older background (as in written before the Horus Heresy drive) have been brought up in past discussions as long-standing hints that the Primaris project builds upon. I can't remember the other references out of hand, but it's a short list.

 

As for giant Primarchs, one may cheekily choose to view the Rogue Trader depiction of 40k as the most truthful one, with everything subsequent more seen through a lense of self-aggrandizing Imperial propaganda.

 

Quote

A brilliant radical like that one from Eisenhorn whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

Interject: It's only at this point that I realise that there is a fourth book to the Eisenhorn trilogy. ;)

 

Yep. And it just keeps growing when one doesn't look, doesn't it? ;)

 

Quote

 

They're just a cudgel to the 40k universe, one that anyone that has been dealing with the setting over the years kind of get used to.

 

At the moment, I really don't have any thoughts about them. They seem... terribly, boringly vanilla with little to rescue them from the doldrums of the Ultramarines.

 

Another apt description. Most understandable as well. And by the way, I learnt yesterday that GW had backpedalled on Primaris Marines being a pure improvement during 8th edition 40k, by instead introducing background that revealed new batches of Primaris Marines to display even more exaggerated defects from the geneseed of the various Legions. Blink, and one might miss it. New background has rained tightly since 2017, compared to the static setting of yore. And this change in geneseed was also accompanied by a change in chronology for the Indomitus Crusade, which I guess is unprofessional, but I have no views on it one way or another. Just roll with it.

 

Quote

 

That all seems reasonable. The Imperium reacting with changing strategies and tactics would be an amusing strategy for GW. :)

 

Mayhap even a novelty!

 

Quote

 

With Face, Magos, and some of the other war-focused slogs, it's taking me quite some time to make it through the recommendations. I'll just chalk these up to be read at a later date, if then.

 

Oh damn. I just realized the recommendations could amount to a slog of homework. My pardons for my recommendations if so. I picked some of both the most enjoyable and better material. I have read a good number of other Black Library books that might be worth mentioning, but for all their better moments, they didn't hold up to the overall quality standard that made me able to recommend them straight up.

Edited March 18 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

So often it comes down to cherrypicking the better parts and emphasising them for headcanon.

 

Aye.

 

When it comes to the gods and their whims, however, one might imagine that conclusions could be drawn from what they're doing with the fantasy setting. *shrugs* 

 

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

For sure. GW buying into its own mythology has given some sweet fruits in regard to the origin of the Primarchs. It is subjective for sure, but in my eyes the Faustian pact is a nice touch that adds yet another layer of irony to the background. Nevermind the cliché; if it works, it works.

 

I may have to go and remind myself of this, because I saw very few positives into the changes that were done with the Primarchs. Indeed, making them into "living gods" was one of the tipping points where 40k went full fantasy. There was something more... grim when they were just paramount humans with genetic augments rather than being warp-fueled demigods. The same for the Emperor.

 

In fact, when I think about such things I tend to feel a little exhausted and want to go back to thinking about other settings. O.o

 

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Possibly, although I believe this background of the Labyrinth and Corax' desperate gene-experiments scuppered by Alpha Legion infiltration may have first showed up circa 2005 or suchlike in a White Dwarf article.

 

Fair enough. To be fair, though, I had long stopped buying GW stuff by that time as I was no longer living in my birth country.

 

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

As for giant Primarchs, one may cheekily choose to view the Rogue Trader depiction of 40k as the most truthful one, with everything subsequent more seen through a lense of self-aggrandizing Imperial propaganda.

 

Which one was that, out of interest? 

 

I think that my favourite image of Leman Russ is one in an image of the Emperor from Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned. 

 

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

And by the way, I learnt yesterday that GW had backpedalled on Primaris Marines being a pure improvement during 8th edition 40k, by instead introducing background that revealed new batches of Primaris Marines to display even more exaggerated defects from the geneseed of the various Legions.

 

You're going to have to give me more information on that one as it would, on the face of it, make more sense. 

 

4 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Oh damn. I just realized the recommendations could amount to a slog of homework. My pardons for my recommendations if so. I picked some of both the most enjoyable and better material.

 

No worries. As I said, it's just harder to get through them as quickly as I used to.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

22 minutes ago, Kage2020 said:

I may have to go and remind myself of this, because I saw very few positives into the changes that were done with the Primarchs. Indeed, making them into "living gods" was one of the tipping points where 40k went full fantasy. There was something more... grim when they were just paramount humans with genetic augments rather than being warp-fueled demigods. The same for the Emperor.

 

For sure. Ergo the possibility that the older impression may be the actual one, while the mythological one could be penned down to propaganda and stories.

 

Quote

Which one was that, out of interest? 

 

Spoiler

 

Quote

You're going to have to give me more information on that one as it would, on the face of it, make more sense.

 

Copying over input from DakkaDakka: "The various geneseed flaws actually started to manifest more strongly in many Primaris because rather than using geneseed diluted over 10k years, Cawl had access to pure Primarch DNA but without the advanced processes of the Legions to nullify the worst effects."

 

"The No Flaws thing was a fluff bait-and-switch. They were "marketed" that way to Gulliman (not necessarily to us) - probably as a way to kick the Deathcompany/Ravenwing/etc can down the road long enough to sculpt - Thus why "Dark Angels don't trust Primaris.". became a thing."

 

I can ask for relevant official material if you like. There is a good chance that a friend of mine own both newer codices and Black Library books.

[Kage2020]

3 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

 

  Hide contents

 

I'm going to chalk this one up to them re-using a name. That looks more like Marneus Calgar. That and the "Space Marine Fortress" of the Space Wolves looks more like an outpost. :)

 

3 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Copying over input from DakkaDakka: "The various geneseed flaws actually started to manifest more strongly in many Primaris because rather than using geneseed diluted over 10k years, Cawl had access to pure Primarch DNA but without the advanced processes of the Legions to nullify the worst effects."

 

Ugh. That sounds just like bad reasoning/writing.

 

Actually, that's probably a signal for me to go and do something else because of real-world shenanigans.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

In that case I apologize. Please know that you are always welcome back to the Warhammer fold, and that your very own take on 40k will always be received well by many of those readers who are fortunate to happen upon it. Your subtle and thoughtful approach to the background makes you a loremaster, and those of us who have partaken of your works will well remember them. I wish you and your family all the best in life.

 

As a final note, all of Matt Farrer's work will still work as gems of pleasant reading material. His writing has always been grounded and thought-through, and as far as I can tell it has never spiralled off in such manner as you may find off-putting with much of Games Workshop's poorer reasoning and their leaning too heavily into fantasy in space.

 

Kind regards

Edited March 19 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

9 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

In that case I apologize.

 

No need to apologise. I'm just generally trying to be more upbeat about the setting and the, ah, decisions that are made about it by the powers-that-be. As I tell me son when he gets annoyed and stressed by video games, just walk away. Come back to it when your mind has cleared.

 

9 hours ago, Karak Norn Clansman said:

As a final note, all of Matt Farrer's work will still work as gems of pleasant reading material.

 

I believe on Warseer/Portent, Farrer was described as "the thinking person's 40k", though personally it veered too much down the Imperium-as-Catholicism-in-spaace approach whereas I'm still a fan of the notion of Imperium-wide acculturation. 

 

I did, however, just finish Face. That was a strange one. O.o

Edited March 19 by Kage2020

[Karak Norn Clansman]

13 hours ago, Kage2020 said:

I believe on Warseer/Portent, Farrer was described as "the thinking person's 40k", though personally it veered too much down the Imperium-as-Catholicism-in-spaace approach whereas I'm still a fan of the notion of Imperium-wide acculturation.

 

This is true. But one will never see Catholics in space done so well as under Farrer's pen.

 

As to the mediaeval Catholicism in space that is all over 40k, I always understood it as the high culture emanating out from Holy Terra by the usual centrifugal forces of main urban centers influencing far-flung regions (compare with how history went down a different trouser leg when Central Asian trade cities shifted religion in the middle ages). And for the most part, it will often be a thin exotic veneer embraced among some of the ruling castes and Imperial Adepts, with a deep sea of local cultures holding sway in society.

 

With Hydraphur being a Segmentum fleet world, one might expect it to display an unusually high degree of Holy Terran influence. At least in my reading between the lines.

 

Quote

I did, however, just finish Face. That was a strange one. O.o

 

Oooh yes.

Edited March 20 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

Completely OffT, but Magos is like a breathe of fresh air. I actually want to read it. :)

I think, however, we might be out of runway. O.o

Edited March 22 by Kage2020

[Kage2020]

Actually, perhaps not. 

 

Magos introduces a new form of Tech Priest that, perhaps might even by considered one of the laity? What say you @Karak Norn Clansman? 

I am, of course, talking about Magos Biologis Drusher who does not seem like the standard fare from the Adeptus Mechanicus that we've come to expect. If anything, he seems like a local scientist that has been initiated into the lower levels of the Cult Mechanicus, perhaps in name only, so that they can do scientific work on a world(s).

 

This is something that was discussed a lot in the past but, I think, not something that was really explored---especially not by an author in the (as he calls it) "domestic" setting.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

Most interesting! I have not yet read Magos, but this sounds like a reason to do so soon.

 

That is a pragmatic use of local talent not inducted into the Cult Mechanicus from an early age. Taking a step back to view all of Adeptus Mechanicus background as a whole, such gifted indivuals would likely be both valuable, and in the red danger zone depending on whatever dogma the sectarian Tech-Priests that they encounter happen to follow. Not all sects may be so welcoming to advanced knowers initiated from outside their ranks.

 

I am surprised to see Drusher carrying the senior rank of Magos, however. One would expect their rank to be a lower one. I am actually going to hazard a guess at a far-fetched explanation here: Drusher being a Magos Biologis could be the result of an even higher-ranking member of the Adeptus Mechanicus having taken Drusher under their wings as a client and then promoted Drusher in order to better carry out his scientific duties and make use of his rare homegrown expertise to the fullest,

 

This would enable Magos Biologis Drusher to draw more upon the resources of the Mechanicus and be better able to stand up for himself in case of clashes with other Magi and Genetors. And in 40k, such clashes do include kinetic combat.

 

Or Drusher has just proven his worth and risen naturally through the hierarchy.

 

Or perhaps there is a lot more of this going on across the Adeptus Mechanicus as a whole?

 

Putting that aside, this is nice seeing explored, or at least hinted at, in official material. Since I somehow missed all of the Adeptus Mechanicus discussions back in the day (Emperor damn it, they've always been one of my favourite things in all of 40k!), this has emerged as a new topic for me. Thank you, @Kage2020!

 

And more to the point, this would be a small point in favour of the Adeptus Me-Can-Icus side of things. The Tech-Priesthood is still blinkered and counter-productive to its Quest for Knowledge, of course, but it is not completely retarded and unable to make use of local scientists.

Edited April 19 by Karak Norn Clansman

[Kage2020]

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Most interesting! I have not yet read Magos, but this sounds like a reason to do so soon.

 

It was nice not to have to slog through a 40k novel.

 

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

That is a pragmatic use of local talent not inducted into the Cult Mechanicus from an early age...

 

Again, though, perhaps the solution is for this to define the laity---those individuals that are trained in scientific inquiry (to a point; perhaps exclusively at the local level) and are inducted into the Adeptus Mechanicus as lay people and not inducted into the Cult Mechanicus.

 

In the sections that he showed up in the book, he was just a normal person. While one might account for the like of chrome and brass (etc.) augments from him being Biologis, nothing like that was even mentioned. Indeed, none of the traditional factors (or tropes or whatever) that go into descriptions of the normal Tech Priest were really absent. In fact, unless I glossed over it he did not appear to have any augmentations whatsoever, nor did he partake in the traditional chanting or propitiations to the Machine God.

 

That there are people that are inducted into the full Cult for various reasons would seem to parallel the example given in the opening pages of Mechanicum where someone feels that their alterations to a cogitator (IIRC) have been deemed heretical when, in fact, they had marked them for patronship from a Magos of the more radical bent (arguably, and drawing from Inquisitorial terms because, why not).

 

Of course, from the text and examples in the book, this does lead into somewhat boorish interpretations of 40k as "steampunk", fossilising it in the Tech Level of the early-20th century where Magos Biologis would record animal taxonomies using... watercolours (again, IIRC). And that's... not quite as interesting as it used to be.

 

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Taking a step back to view all of Adeptus Mechanicus background as a whole, such gifted indivuals would likely be both valuable, and in the red danger zone depending on whatever dogma the sectarian Tech-Priests that they encounter happen to follow. Not all sects may be so welcoming to advanced knowers initiated from outside their ranks.

 

Indeed. This is one of the reasons back in the 'ole days that we created "Philosophies", akin to Inquisitorial factions and thereby representing their specific bent of orthodoxy or radicalism, and then a specific combination of the two ("Paradigms") that represented the overriding political bent of a given Forge World. (The Mars if Mechanicum seemed split, but it was ultimately the orthodox faction that won out and become the dominant Paradigm for Mars and, perhaps, a huge swathe of the Imperium.)

 

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

I am actually going to hazard a guess at a far-fetched explanation here: Drusher being a Magos Biologis could be the result of an even higher-ranking member of the Adeptus Mechanicus having taken Drusher under their wings as a client and then promoted Drusher in order to better carry out his scientific duties and make use of his rare homegrown expertise to the fullest,

 

When you get to the book, I'll think that you'll discard this hypothesis. I'm not going to spoil any more of it than what I already have.

 

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

Or perhaps there is a lot more of this going on across the Adeptus Mechanicus as a whole?

 

I'm currently happy with having an "official" representation of the laity, while simultaneously saddened by the depressing lack of scientific advancement that the Imperium seems to be operating at. Womp womp.

 

On 4/19/2024 at 3:15 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

And more to the point, this would be a small point in favour of the Adeptus Me-Can-Icus side of things. The Tech-Priesthood is still blinkered and counter-productive to its Quest for Knowledge, of course, but it is not completely retarded and unable to make use of local scientists.

 

I'm not entirely sure, which is why we created the version of Philosophies, Paradigms, and politics in the above. It's a bit of a cop-out, but at its heart it's a Mystery Cult. Those at the bottom are "Can't-icus" and those at the top can be "Can-icus", but that doesn't mean they they all are. Indeed, probably some of the more dangerous Arch Magos of the "Can't-icus" Philosophies are probably those most responsible for persecuting "scientific endeavour" in the Imperium.

 

Or, at least, I would imagine so.

[Karak Norn Clansman]

21 hours ago, Kage2020 said:

Again, though, perhaps the solution is for this to define the laity---those individuals that are trained in scientific inquiry (to a point; perhaps exclusively at the local level) and are inducted into the Adeptus Mechanicus as lay people and not inducted into the Cult Mechanicus.

 

Highly interesting. As concern laity apropos the tech-cult I had always had a more narrow vision of it, as in Farrer's passing mention of lay tech-men. Understood as non-Cult technicians and such, nothing advanced nor pursuing scientific study, but implied to receive some rudimentary tech-schooling or at least scrutiny for purity from Cult Mechanicus personnel on top of hereditary, parochial knowledge. The salt of the earth that keeps so much of Imperial industry and technology rolling and functioning. To see laity including actual research scientists is an interesting concept for the Adeptus Mechanicus. Neat take!

 

Quote

In the sections that he showed up in the book, he was just a normal person. While one might account for the like of chrome and brass (etc.) augments from him being Biologis, nothing like that was even mentioned. Indeed, none of the traditional factors (or tropes or whatever) that go into descriptions of the normal Tech Priest were really absent. In fact, unless I glossed over it he did not appear to have any augmentations whatsoever, nor did he partake in the traditional chanting or propitiations to the Machine God.

 

That there are people that are inducted into the full Cult for various reasons would seem to parallel the example given in the opening pages of Mechanicum where someone feels that their alterations to a cogitator (IIRC) have been deemed heretical when, in fact, they had marked them for patronship from a Magos of the more radical bent (arguably, and drawing from Inquisitorial terms because, why not).

 

Ah, noted. This is also further reason to not discard the Rogue Trader (1987) artwork with Mechanicus folks in lab coats swinging incense. Clearly, there is a place for Mechanicus personnel of a tame and domestic appearance compared to the gloriously exotic mechadendrite feast usually going on. Laity being one possible, and sound, explanation.

 

Good comparison to that part of Mechanicum.

 

Quote

Of course, from the text and examples in the book, this does lead into somewhat boorish interpretations of 40k as "steampunk", fossilising it in the Tech Level of the early-20th century where Magos Biologis would record animal taxonomies using... watercolours (again, IIRC). And that's... not quite as interesting as it used to be.

 

Haha, really? That's the kind of thing one would expect excentric nobles and curious Rogue Traders to dabble in, not Magi of the Omnissiah's blessed Mechanicus. A recent Black Library publication was of that kind, written by a Rogue Trader that was often obviously misinformed.

 

Speaking of which, i will have to dig up the project work that I and two friends worked at during the end of school shortly after our discussions about Eldar on Warseer. Because science fiction animal taxonomies of that kind (but in graphite drawings, just like most of my work nowadays) is precisely what that project is all about. Exploring the fauna of the world of Gorkhan. We have pondered turning it into a piece of 40k work and add more species to it, but so far other projects have got in the way over the past two decades. Maybe I'll get around to it properly later this year and next. About time. I promise to show you for the sake of curiosity when I scan the drawings, and if we decide to convert it into 40k duty I'll be sure to post it on B&C and elsewhere loud and clear. Otherwise we might aim to round if off as its own little stand-alone thing in a poorly defined setting and finally try to get it published in book format as was the original plan all along. We'll see.

 

Quote

Indeed. This is one of the reasons back in the 'ole days that we created "Philosophies", akin to Inquisitorial factions and thereby representing their specific bent of orthodoxy or radicalism, and then a specific combination of the two ("Paradigms") that represented the overriding political bent of a given Forge World. (The Mars if Mechanicum seemed split, but it was ultimately the orthodox faction that won out and become the dominant Paradigm for Mars and, perhaps, a huge swathe of the Imperium.)

 

Intriguing!

 

Quote

When you get to the book, I'll think that you'll discard this hypothesis. I'm not going to spoil any more of it than what I already have.

 

Roger that, I look forward to devour the book!

 

Quote

I'm currently happy with having an "official" representation of the laity, while simultaneously saddened by the depressing lack of scientific advancement that the Imperium seems to be operating at. Womp womp.

 

That is a neat novelty in official publications. As to the lack of scientific advancement, it is possible that rediscoveries by laity and gifted/freethinking Tech-Priests has aided the Imperium in treading water by every now and then resetting some little part of the slowly eroding human knowledge base through actual discovery and innovation.

 

Quote

I'm not entirely sure, which is why we created the version of Philosophies, Paradigms, and politics in the above. It's a bit of a cop-out, but at its heart it's a Mystery Cult. Those at the bottom are "Can't-icus" and those at the top can be "Can-icus", but that doesn't mean they they all are. Indeed, probably some of the more dangerous Arch Magos of the "Can't-icus" Philosophies are probably those most responsible for persecuting "scientific endeavour" in the Imperium.

 

Or, at least, I would imagine so.

 

Indeed a mystery cult. And very good point about high-ranking Tech-Priests of the Can't-icus spectrum being leading persecutors of actual bright sparks of science and invention. That would make perfect sense, given the overall background, and add an element of tragedy by having the seeds of future renaissance hunted, suppressed and quashed time and again by fanatical dogmatists. Excellent inspiration for stories as well. Thank you.

[Kage2020]

On 4/24/2024 at 8:29 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

 

Highly interesting. As concern laity apropos the tech-cult I had always had a more narrow vision of it, as in Farrer's passing mention of lay tech-men. Understood as non-Cult technicians and such, nothing advanced nor pursuing scientific study, but implied to receive some rudimentary tech-schooling or at least scrutiny for purity from Cult Mechanicus personnel on top of hereditary, parochial knowledge.

 

You'll get to it, but judge for yourself whether this was "scientific study" in terms of research, or just observation/recordation. That might push your personal dial one way or the other.

 

On 4/24/2024 at 8:29 PM, Karak Norn Clansman said:

The salt of the earth that keeps so much of Imperial industry and technology rolling and functioning. To see laity including actual research scientists is an interesting concept for the Adeptus Mechanicus. Neat take!

 

And this has always been a thorny issue. At which point would technology be considered "sacrosanct" and indelibly the purview of the Adeptus Mechanicus? 

 

I guess the answer there is that it totally depends on what you're approach to technology in the setting was. I had always assumed/presumed that it was a "hidden tech" setting, where high-tech was hidden behind low-tech form factors, e.g. computers with flexible screens as a "scroll" and the like. On the other hand, after reading Magos the de facto setting assumption seems to be in the late-19th century... in spaaaaaceee. I'm not quite sure how I feel about that because the setting doesn't seem as interesting when framed like that. At least to me.

 

YMMV, of course. :)

[Philip S]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:52 PM, Kage2020 said:

And for once a great deal of the inspirational materials came from GW in the form of Mechanicum (novel), Titanicus (novel), one by Matt Farrer (part of the Calpurnia novels but I forget which),

 

Do you mean Blind? In the printed version Matt gives me a thank you, I wonder what for....

Edited July 13 by Philip S
Fighting the editor, no code mode?

[Kage2020]

 

 

Do you mean Blind? In the printed version Matt gives me a thank you, I wonder what for....

 

No, it was probably one of the first ones. While Farrer was described as the "thinking person's 40k author" it went way too far down the "Cassocks in Spaacce" approach of drawing heavily from the medieval Catholic Church, at least for me.