Losing a sense of 'my guys' within the hobby. Anyone else?

[jaxom]

On 4/3/2024 at 10:26 AM, jaxom said:

I've become increasing convinced that as messy as killing the Old World was, at least it created a clean break. As 8th became 9th became 10th, and I've been able to compare what's happened in 40k to AoS,

Holy ! Beasts of Chaos is getting squatted in AoS and going to the new Old World game. Calling it now, no more Firstborn in 11th edition 40k, going to be solely supported in Horus Heresy.

 

EDIT: Not intended to derail thread. Mod(s), please move or remove as you see fit. I just wanted to follow up on the idea that AoS and 40k decisions seem to influence each other (like how AoS is removing subfactions and replacing them with detachments).

Edited April 4 by jaxom

[Marshal Rohr]

33 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Holy ! Beasts of Chaos is getting squatted in AoS and going to the new Old World game. Calling it now, no more Firstborn in 11th edition 40k, going to be solely supported in Horus Heresy.

 

EDIT: Not intended to derail thread. Mod(s), please move or remove as you see fit. I just wanted to follow up on the idea that AoS and 40k decisions seem to influence each other (like how AoS is removing subfactions and replacing them with detachments).

I don’t think the Great AoS Slaughter is a good sign for anything. Warcry getting the axe, Bonesplittaz not going to Old World feels like we are about to go through a year of major cuts. I wouldn’t be surprised if Old Marine kits go LCTB sooner than 11th Edition. This feels like business or money problems, not streamlining the ranges. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Just a quick and friendly note: predictions on model removal is a topic for another thread.

[DemonGSides]

59 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I don’t think the Great AoS Slaughter is a good sign for anything. Warcry getting the axe, Bonesplittaz not going to Old World feels like we are about to go through a year of major cuts. I wouldn’t be surprised if Old Marine kits go LCTB sooner than 11th Edition. This feels like business or money problems, not streamlining the ranges. 

 

It literally feels exactly like streamlining the ranges?

 

Bonesplittaz are being dropped because they hit a little too close to a problematic imagery; easy to get rid of in AoS as they have contemporary kits in the Ironjawz if you wanna go for the Pig Ork aesthetic. 

 

BoC they want to use in The Old World and their stupid decisions to let people use their models ONLY in one game. 

 

Warcry units just created an exponential balancing problem; Warcry isn't leaving, just bespoke models getting bespoke rules in AoS. 

 

The Stormcast range getting cut in half is legitimately just streamlining and removing bloat. I'm bummed cuz they're literally cutting my entire SCE force, but more doom posting as if this is anything more than just more "Primaris" level reorganizing is silly. These changes have nothing to do with the company having "business or money problems." 

[Evil Eye]

38 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Bonesplittaz are being dropped because they hit a little too close to a problematic imagery; easy to get rid of in AoS as they have contemporary kits in the Ironjawz if you wanna go for the Pig Ork aesthetic. 

GW removing kits because of perceived "problematic imagery" is a pretty awful excuse. I guess impaled corpses are fine but savage orcs behaving like savage orcs is a no-no?

Edited April 4 by Evil Eye
Minor spelling error.

[Arikel]

11 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

GW removing kits because of perceived "problematic imagery" is a pretty awful excuse. I guess impaled corpses are fine but savage orcs behaving like savage orcs is a no-no?

 

I do hear where your coming from, but orks in Warhammer, and orcs in general in  fantasy/sci-fi, have often served as stand-ins and caricatures of various cultures that Western society has often called primitive. The very word savage itself has been abused in Canada so much now it is considered a racial slur and no longer appropriate for everyday usage (similar to how the former medical term retard and its variations are no longer acceptable, due to colloquial misusage).

 

That GW is willing to rework past content to be more appealing to everyone, is a good thing. Rather than doubling down to keep something offensive in future games  for any dubious nostalgia or historical value it may hold, it is best to acknowledge it, apologize if needed, and then rework the content, removing it if that is impossible.

 

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Arikel said:

That GW is willing to rework past content to be more appealing to everyone, is a good thing. Rather than doubling down to keep something offensive in future games  for any dubious nostalgia or historical value it may hold, it is best to acknowledge it, apologize if needed, and then rework the content, removing it if that is impossible.

 

 

There is no such thing as something that is "appealing to everyone." Different people have different tastes. Different people find different things exciting, interesting, offensive, etc. and that's okay. Just because something bothers you because some term in a unit entry has been added to the naughty list, does not mean that no one else is allowed to enjoy it, for reasons that you find dubious, or otherwise.

[Arikel]

18 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

There is no such thing as something that is "appealing to everyone." Different people have different tastes. Different people find different things exciting, interesting, offensive, etc. and that's okay. Just because something bothers you because some term in a unit entry has been added to the naughty list, does not mean that no one else is allowed to enjoy it, for reasons that you find dubious, or otherwise.

Oh i think the models look good, and are well done in their own way. However it’s objectively apparent what the real world  influences of those particular models are, and how offensive that could possibly be, if one puts the least bit of effort into the matter.
 

It can be handwaved away with things like “in the past” or from “another era”, and there is nothing inherently wrong with liking or owning the models. However, that is no justification for the company to continue to produce the things, now that they know better.
 

I suppose the word appealing was not the best choice for what I was thinking of. It is more along the lines of not being disgusted by, or turned off the hobby, because of it.

[Lay]

Did people actually complain about those miniatures? Or is this a rumor being blown out of proportion

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

GW removing kits because of perceived "problematic imagery" is a pretty awful excuse. I guess impaled corpses are fine but savage orcs behaving like savage orcs is a no-no?

Yeah, I mean lots of people have been impaled throughout the years.  But bones in noses and the 'savage' aesthetic is a pretty well worn racist trope so why bother keeping up with it when they can retire these old sculpts, and do something a little more tasteful later on down the line, if they feel like it?  Conquest has a pretty well done "savage" ork theme that doesn't lean into racial caricatures; I think GW is probably capable of something that can evoke "super low tech even for the setting" orks without having to lean on the problematic imagery.

 

2 hours ago, Rain said:

 

There is no such thing as something that is "appealing to everyone." Different people have different tastes. Different people find different things exciting, interesting, offensive, etc. and that's okay. Just because something bothers you because some term in a unit entry has been added to the naughty list, does not mean that no one else is allowed to enjoy it, for reasons that you find dubious, or otherwise.

 

And GW is allowed to stop liking those things by that same premise, and since they're a capitalist company competing in the global market, they are going to do the thing that makes the most goodwill sense.

39 minutes ago, Lay said:

Did people actually complain about those miniatures? Or is this a rumor being blown out of proportion

 

It's not even a rumor; it's just what I assumed was the reasoning.  Those old models are pretty awful, ugly, and old as hell.  It's probably as much "We have so many better kits that hit all these same use-cases (AKA Streamlining that the original complaint said wasn't happening)" as it is anything else; it's also possibly another Old World situation where they may want to put the Savage Ork aesthetic into JUST Old World, like Beastmen.

Edited April 4 by DemonGSides

[Marshal Rohr]

I think it’s clear that certain Primaris units will be treated similarly, further killing off the idea of your dudes. Did you like Skull Faced Reivers? What’s the point of a worse assault squad? All your reiver guys aren’t selling and they can keep more Infiltrators and jump intercessors on the shelf so they just cease to exist. Regardless of the specifics of which kits might get the axe, this is a huge problem for all of us and we have no idea what will happen. 
 

Desolators make first gen stormcast look like Fulgrim Transfigured, and just came out last year, how soon before they get put out to pasture?

Edited April 4 by Marshal Rohr

[ZeroWolf]

25 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

I think it’s clear that certain Primaris units will be treated similarly, further killing off the idea of your dudes. Did you like Skull Faced Reivers? What’s the point of a worse assault squad? All your reiver guys aren’t selling and they can keep more Infiltrators and jump intercessors on the shelf so they just cease to exist. Regardless of the specifics of which kits might get the axe, this is a huge problem for all of us and we have no idea what will happen. 
 

Desolators make first gen stormcast look like Fulgrim Transfigured, and just came out last year, how soon before they get put out to pasture?

Desolators may have only released past year but they were already sitting on GW HQ shelves about 3 years prior to that

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

But bones in noses and the 'savage' aesthetic is a pretty well worn racist trope

They are literally green. If you see hulking green fungus-men with vaguely porcine facial features and immediately think of a real-world people, that's on you.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

They are literally green. If you see hulking green fungus-men with vaguely porcine facial features and immediately think of a real-world people, that's on you.

 

You can ignore my point if you want, but I specifically called out the savage and tribal aesthetic, nothing about the ork features. But that's okay I can remind you again.

 

 

[Timberley]

On 4/3/2024 at 3:26 PM, jaxom said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

I've become increasing convinced that as messy as killing the Old World was, at least it created a clean break. As 8th became 9th became 10th, and I've been able to compare what's happened in 40k to AoS, I think it's resulted in a lot of unhappiness among the 40k community (which we didn't see once AoS settled) because there are still too many artifacts of earlier editions. The problem is that those earlier editions are based on a completely different design philosophy. It's like trying to understand chemistry if you were only taught alchemy. One is clearly descended from the other, and a lot of the basic vocabulary and concepts are the same, but the philosophy which drives development and understanding of one is completely different from the other. 

 

Personally, I can't enjoy the system GW is trying to make as much because the artifacts make things too messy. Meanwhile, I feel it's disingenuous to try to pass off the new system as an extension of the old because the design philosophy behind it is completely different. I know other people on the board don't feel that way, but comparing editions 3.5 and earlier to now is apples and oranges. They're both fruit, spherical, and tasty, but they don't taste the same.

 

@Interrogator Stobz put it excellently, "One of the things I have been pondering about how we're losing the 'feels' is one of scale. By that, I mean the granularity you can achieve inside unit level vs. the whole army." I appreciate 10th edition as a large quantity 28mm-scale miniatures war game for more than five factions. Maybe it's nostalgia glasses, but the following 2nd edition armies seem smaller compared to 2,000 points today. They're both about 35 models. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

To an extent I agree, I can see the appeal of creating that clean break and starting anew, and I think GW are trying to do that with 10th, but have to deal with the legacy models and such, particularly when it comes to divergent chapters (to use Marines as an example).

 

To my mind, and as we've discussed, detachments are meant to emulate the fighting styles of subfactions within the main faction (Retaliation for Farsight, for example) but are applicable to all subfactions because of the uniformity of training within the faction.  In and of itself, this is no bad thing, as it removes the multitude of Warlord Traits, Wargear, Special Strategems, etc.  However, I fear we've thrown the baby out with the bathwater by doing this.  Hence the reason why I'd like them to bring something in for 11th Edition (in hopefully about 4-5 years time)  that brings in some level of personalisation within a detachment.  By turns, the increase in named characters (for some factions) and the loss of generic characters (for others) has decreased that personalisation.

 

As for the comparison of army size, I couldn't agree more with @Interrogator Stobz - the larger number of units we field in current armies feels more impersonal.  To go with your lists, here's the 2E Imperial Guard 1500pt sample list at the back of the Codex:

 

Spoiler

• Cadian Command HQ - Colonel, Primaris Psyker Master, 2x Meltagun Guardsmen, 1x Heavy Weapons Team (Missile Launcher) - 273pts
• Chimera with Frag Defender rounds for above - 150pts
• Imperial Guard Squad - Sergeant, 6x Lasgun Guardsmen, 1x Flamer Guardsman, 1x Heavy Weapons Team (Heavy Bolter) - 117pts
• Veteran Heavy Weapons Squad - 2x Autocannon teams, 1x Heavy Bolter team (all have 'Slick Crew' veteran ability) - 122pts
• Veteran Ratling Snipers - 5x snipers with the 'Dead-Eye Shot' veteran ability - 105pts
• Leman Russ Battle Tank - 205pts
• Catachan Command Squad - Lieutenant, 1x HWT (Lascannon), 1x HWT (Heavy Bolter), Primaris Psyker - 150pts
• Imperial Guard Squad - Sergeant, 6x Lasgun Guardsmen, 1x Plasma Guardsman, 1x HWT (Missile Launcher) - 148pts
• Chimera for above - 140pts
• Rough Rider Squad - 5x Rough Riders - 100pts

 

In today's money, that's 870pts!  No wonder the hobby feels more expensive than it used to!  

 

Seriously though, I do wonder if this shift in scale from a small scale/skirmish game to a mid-sized strategic wargame has contributed to the lack of 'your guys' feeling.  The schizophrenic distribution of named and generic characters across the factions that I've spoken of elsewhere in this thread doesn't help matters.

 

If we take my Imperial Guard army as an example, I use a Solar Auxilia Lord Marshal (Colonel Symon Kraemer of the 333rd Terrisinian Fusiliers) as Lord Solar, with a DKOK Senior Officer (Colonel Jedefrey Saruin of the 270th Keriban Infantry Regiment) as Ursula Creed, leading a combined force of Solar Auxilia, Van Saar, and DKOK (as Cadians, Catachan and DKOK respectively), with DKOK Engineers as Kasrkin.  Similarly, my grey-painted Thousand Sons and Primaris Marines are an Ultramarines Vanguard Spearhead, led by Calgar (a HH-era Cataphractii Praetor), with Uriel Ventris (a Primaris Lieutenant).  Would GW have expected that sort of thing as a workaround for their detachment system? 

[MegaVolt87]

New shattered legions and black shields in new HH BG book is the oasis you have been looking for if you miss "your dudes". 

[ThePenitentOne]

25 minutes ago, MegaVolt87 said:

New shattered legions and black shields in new HH BG book is the oasis you have been looking for if you miss "your dudes". 

If the "Your dudes" people are missing happen to be marines I imagine. 

 

If on the other hand people are missing "Their Xenos" HH has absolutely nothing to offer.