Vox casters

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Is it just me or does it feel like GW has struggled to properly portray Vox casters on the table top?

 

I don’t understand why it’s so hard either. 
a vox should allow orders at longer range and allow use of an officer’s LD if in order range. Maybe the master vox provides the CP refund.

 

theres a few ways they could do it obviously.

a vox could just mean that unit can be ordered by an officer with a vox in its unit any where on the table, or allow bouncing orders between units with voxes within 6” of each other, or create a 9” bubble around a unit, and if an officer’s order range touches or overlaps that bubble he can order that unit.

 

as is it just seems if we ever go back to paying for upgrades it’ll be hard to justify points for vox casters in most let alone every unit they’re available in.

[AutumnEffect]

I think 'portray' might be the wrong word. 

I'm sure this is an opinion that a lot will disagree with, but I feel like we're kind of lucky to get any rules for vox casters at all.
It's a radio. Perhaps a fancy radio, a very, very nice radio but a radio none the less.
Every faction has radios of some kind or an equivalent means of transmitting information. Tau, Aeldari, Marines, Votann, Necrons. Everyone has radios. I'm sure everyone has very, very fancy radios too, but they don't have rules for them.

 

It's a similar thing with Orders. Every faction is going to have orders it issues to it's troops, even if it's psychic imperatives from the Hive Mind or the yells of an Ork Warboss. A reasonable argument can be made that those are different from the disciplined training of an Astra Militarum unit responding to commands, but does that mean that Aeldari, Marines, Votann and Tau are less trained and disciplined?

So, talking from a strictly 'portrayal' standpoint, I don't think a basic vox should do anything because, as I said, everybody has radios.
Now, this doesn't mean that I think there shouldn't be rules for a vox caster in the squad, just that I don't believe that thinking about how they are 'portrayed' is a good way of looking at rules. You need to look at what the army needs to be playable and fun on the tabletop.

 

As it is, I think Vox Casters are pretty strong. Being able to get a free command point on a 5+ or 4+ if an Officer is within 6" is pretty good this edition.
Consider this: Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines grants his army +1 CP when he's on the table for being a Master Tactician (the name of the rule.)
An infantry squad from planet No-Where can get the same effect 50% of the time because Lieutenant No-Name standing nearby shouted at them to Go to Ground.   

Edited March 29 by AutumnEffect

[Emperor Ming]

Yeah, it should be an order extension range

 

and the cp potential generation is pointless if you take the lord solar

Edited March 29 by Emperor Ming

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

I think 'portray' might be the wrong word. 

I'm sure this is an opinion that a lot will disagree with, but I feel like we're kind of lucky to get any rules for vox casters at all.
It's a radio. Perhaps a fancy radio, a very, very nice radio but a radio none the less.
Every faction has radios of some kind or an equivalent means of transmitting information. Tau, Aeldari, Marines, Votann, Necrons. Everyone has radios. I'm sure everyone has very, very fancy radios too, but they don't have rules for them.

 

It's a similar thing with Orders. Every faction is going to have orders it issues to it's troops, even if it's psychic imperatives from the Hive Mind or the yells of an Ork Warboss. A reasonable argument can be made that those are different from the disciplined training of an Astra Militarum unit responding to commands, but does that mean that Aeldari, Marines, Votann and Tau are less trained and disciplined?

So, talking from a strictly 'portrayal' standpoint, I don't think a basic vox should do anything because, as I said, everybody has radios.
Now, this doesn't mean that I think there shouldn't be rules for a vox caster in the squad, just that I don't believe that thinking about how they are 'portrayed' is a good way of looking at rules. You need to look at what the army needs to be playable and fun on the tabletop.

 

As it is, I think Vox Casters are pretty strong. Being able to get a free command point on a 5+ or 4+ if an Officer is within 6" is pretty good this edition.
Consider this: Marneus Calgar, Chapter Master of the Ultramarines grants his army +1 CP when he's on the table for being a Master Tactician (the name of the rule.)
An infantry squad from planet No-Where can get the same effect 50% of the time because Lieutenant No-Name standing nearby shouted at them to Go to Ground.   

Lore wise, no other faction except maybe tau and chaos cultists, are nearly as reliant on orders and officers, and thus voxes are very important to the guard.

 

 

[AutumnEffect]

 

45 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Lore wise, no other faction except maybe tau and chaos cultists, are nearly as reliant on orders and officers, and thus voxes are very important to the guard.

The Imperial Guard include regiments of everything from feral world headhunters to convicts high on frenzon. We have the Vitrian Dragoons who each carry a copy of their own art of war, the Byhata and are equipped with metallic glass armor with that can flip for a stealth setting. And then for another example we have the feral Kanak Skull Takers who go into battle shirtless and without lasguns, just melee weapons and laspistols.

We also don't have an in-universe operational manual for the Astra Militarum or one from, say, Craftworld Biel-Tan to compare to. Probably because there would be many manuals. There's very, very little standardization within the Imperial Guard beyond a planetary level so we can't make blanket assumptions.

 

I don't really know what the operational decision making parameters of a Storm Giants Battle Brother are, nor do I know the curriculum of a Craftworld Iyanden Autarch Temple.

 

My point is, we don't know that this is true and it would be exceptionally hard to prove it to be true and even then, it wouldn't be true of the entire organization.
At the end of the day, a radio is a radio and everybody has radios.

 

1 hour ago, Emperor Ming said:

and the cp potential generation is pointless if you take the lord solar

And it's not pointless if you don't take the Lord Solar, or if the Lord Solar dies. 

Yes, the Lord Solar is an auto-include for a competitive army list at this moment in time, but removing the command point generation from Vox Casters for the argument and assumption that everyone is going to take this named character model would be dreadful game design.

 

Edited March 29 by AutumnEffect

[Galron]

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

and the cp potential generation is pointless if you take the lord solar

Not everyone takes Lord solar or special characters in general. Many people are opposed to their use in standard games. Most players are not playing in competitive 40k but are playing PUGS and leagues at their local stores.

[DemonGSides]

And sometimes Lord Solar has to make a glorious charge turn 2, whiffs, and eats lead. Happy to have free vox on each of my squads at that point. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

The Imperial Guard include regiments of everything from feral world headhunters to convicts high on frenzon. We have the Vitrian Dragoons who each carry a copy of their own art of war, the Byhata and are equipped with metallic glass armor with that can flip for a stealth setting. And then for another example we have the feral Kanak Skull Takers who go into battle shirtless and without lasguns, just melee weapons and laspistols.

We also don't have an in-universe operational manual for the Astra Militarum or one from, say, Craftworld Biel-Tan to compare to. Probably because there would be many manuals. There's very, very little standardization within the Imperial Guard beyond a planetary level so we can't make blanket assumptions.

 

I don't really know what the operational decision making parameters of a Storm Giants Battle Brother are, nor do I know the curriculum of a Craftworld Iyanden Autarch Temple.

 

My point is, we don't know that this is true and it would be exceptionally hard to prove it to be true and even then, it wouldn't be true of the entire organization.
At the end of the day, a radio is a radio and everybody has radios.

 

And it's not pointless if you don't take the Lord Solar, or if the Lord Solar dies. 

Yes, the Lord Solar is an auto-include for a competitive army list at this moment in time, but removing the command point generation from Vox Casters for the argument and assumption that everyone is going to take this named character model would be dreadful game design.

 

Yes the guard has all different types of regiments, squads like the vitrians and volpone are storm trooper regiments roughly equivalent to Kasrkin or scions.

 

the guard are generally styled after the soviet (and now little changed russian) army that had very little in the way of desire for individual initiative from their enlisted, especially their lower enlisted.

 

this means your regular guard are like the current Russian army, they’re almost useless without direct orders and supervision from commissioned officers or very senior enlisted.

 

SoB are more like the US army where individual initiative is taught and encouraged at fairly low levels. A squad leader will know the plan at least to the platoon level if not company level and will have the training and initiative to make good decision should they lose their radio for some reason.

 

marines are more like SEALs or the SAS, who need very little direction from those above them on the tactical level, often (in lore) only a squad or two will be deployed to a conflict, meaning its most likely that a sgt or veteran sgt will be the most senior marine present. 
 

 

so while you’re correct basically all factions have radios or some similar communication method, as well as a CoC where orders are given, not all factions rely so heavily on their radios, and orders from above like the guard do, which is why they have vox casters as equipment and have had them since 3rd edition at least.

 

your statement of ‘a radio is a radio’ is very reductive.

 

there are kids ‘spy’ or ‘special forces’ toy kits with radios and head sets, that only have a range of a few hundred yards at best, like the vox beads the tanith use…but worse, and then there are FRS radios that can realistically give you a mile or so in a moderate sized city, then there’s car based HAM radios with large antennas on the vehicle that can easily get 50+ miles on relatively flat open terrain, and then there’s ‘base’ HAM ‘base’ radios often connected to towers 50+ ft tall that can talk to people around the world.

so yes, everyone has radios of some sort the power of a vox caster and the height provided by the antenna provides a lot of capability that others in the universe arent really known to use.

Edited March 29 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[terminator ultra]

does this remind anyone of anything?

 

 

Spoiler

(it's a ww1 protable radio)

joking aside, the Vox caster is a very basic piece of kit, but that shouldn't be overlooked. I feel like it could go with scooting squads so the model with th evoke could possibly tell friendly tanks/atrillerly where to fire? I also agree with all those who said extra command points/comand arua. 

 

 

Edited March 29 by terminator ultra

[TheArtilleryman]

What I find odd in this edition is only the command squad needs a vox to increase their order range. If an infantry squad doesn’t have a vox then it can still benefit. It should be that you can’t benefit from long range orders unless both units have a vox present.

[terminator ultra]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

It should be that you can’t benefit from long range orders unless both units have a vox present.

it would be like phoning someone and they can answer if they are without a phone.

[Emperor Ming]

15 minutes ago, terminator ultra said:

it would be like phoning someone and they can answer if they are without a phone.

The officer could just be very good at yelling

[terminator ultra]

3 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

The officer could just be very good at yelling

who needs Vox casters anyway. lets just yell our battle plans *top secret* where anyone can hear them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

What I find odd in this edition is only the command squad needs a vox to increase their order range. If an infantry squad doesn’t have a vox then it can still benefit. It should be that you can’t benefit from long range orders unless both units have a vox present.

Smaller radios with lower power like the vox beads used by the tanith and modeled onto the FOBs can still receive messages but just can’t transmit very far, especially if there’s anything concrete in between.