Is GW a gaming Company or collector's item Company?

[Captain Idaho]

We've all been witness to the removal of models and the feelings are strong on all sides, but this discussion is designed to perhaps determine why and who knows, might even hold a couple solutions in its depths as it gets going.

 

Is Games Workshop a gaming Company or Collectors item Company?

 

When you think about it, removal of stock for Collectors items is common practice, for various reasons. Funko Pops are a great example of such a thing, though I'm not privy to their dedicated community so not really aware if folk feel unhappy about it all.

 

Anyway... GW are, in my view, behaving like both a gaming company AND collector's item company simultaneously, but this is causing problems with the aforementioned elsewhere "shelf space" and supply issues. Amongst other reasons at least.

 

A game needs long terms stability in its products as people are investing as customers into it and expect such... however a collector's piece doesn't need such longevity.

 

I see a divide that is wholey natural and almost like the two sides speak a different language - if you're a gamer and that's what you care about, you'll not want your time and effort in the products you've purchased to go to waste. You don't care about displaying your miniatures even and although you might take pride in painting and converting cool items, you wouldn't have them at all if it weren't for the game.

 

And the opposite might be those who just enjoy the narrative and love the miniatures! You might display you might not, but having the models is your aim and they look amazing all together too.

 

There's plenty of scope in between of course and no way is incorrect. It's all your hobby and damn it that's fine!

 

But I hope to have illustrated a core problem that needs addressing and could likely be done quite easily, relatively.

 

GW could release a collector's item range, call it whatever they want, with either token rules or legends rules for all. People can count as too. But everyone knows what they are. These items getting rotated is par the course.

 

The gaming side can be more measured. Sure things get updated and even occasionally rotated out depending on age and practicality, but the products in this part of the business are considered more stable and longevity for a base game is the idea here.

 

There's still scope for new models in the gaming side of the hobby as I've mentioned, as there's plenty of models needing updating. But there won't be the situation where collections of miniatures are removed a year or two after release. The Kratos and Forge World Legends debacle springs to mind here.

 

Anyway, I'll be interested to read thoughts on this from other Frater so have at it!

[lansalt]

2 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Is Games Workshop a gaming Company or Collectors item Company?

"Yes", and they always have been:
 

 

[Doghouse]

GW grew mostly out of Asgard and Citadel Miniatures with growth driven by a desire from customers to be able to use their models in large scale battles.

 

They did limited runs in the distant past but this wasn't in the same style as modern FOMO limited models as if you missed their scant few marketing pamphlets it could be years before you even knew that the model existed in the first place. They were not collectors models though but more akin to limited production runs of items that may not be popular or be supported extensively.

 

The modern trend seems to be in the very early stages of limited model runs becoming more frequent perhaps even one day replacing the staple boxes of miniatures in the far off future.

 

The game rules were originally to help sell more models, these days it's more about the IP and editions with huge splash releases that come with them. 

 

 

[Karhedron]

GW is primarily a Gaming company. Collectability is just a small sideline for them. But they cannot keep their entire range in stock for ever and never tried. Moving old stuff to Legends is not a new phenomenon, I have a squad of BA Honour Guard with Jump Packs who vanished in the 5th edition codex.

 

Most people are not bothered about a particular mini as long as they can run an appropriate mini. The Chapter-specific Lts are an easy way for GW to cut down on the number of sprues it needs to stock as there is now a generic Primaris Lt kit which allows a model to be armed with whatever loadout the player wants. If they want it to be chapter-specific, there are now upgrade sprues which can be used for bling.

 

Plastic assault squads have vanished completely to be replaced by their Primaris equivalents and we have lost the Hunter and Stalker. We cannot assume that models will remain in production for perpetuity. That does not make them limited edition as such as they are not produced in a specific quanity. It just means that at some point units will get replaced by sucessors and users will have to decide to adapt or move on.

[Triszin]

Miniature company first.

Fomo collector company 2nd

Gaming company third

[Grotsmasha]

Miniatures first, stuff in the middle, gaming a distant last place...

[Bouargh]

I think I remember that some years ago, GW stated itself that it is a Miniature company. Not a Gaming company. 

I am myself convinced that this statement ceased to be true, more or less at the same moment as the Chapterhouse case. For me in coincided (I mean tyhat I do not see any cause/effect) with the moment GW shifted from this Miniature company model to the Editing company Business model.

Custom and premium miniature through FW started its way to reduction, Black library raised up and came in force, Licensing and merchandise too.

 

Same as Lucasfilm with Starwar, Bandai with transformers an other toy franchises... the miniatures and the games are not anymore a driving engine but eventually a byproduct of other activities. Not fully so far, but the trend looks like it is slowly but surely taking this way. And that the steppin´ into this direction is already more than reriously establiched and engaged. It is possible though that the equilibrium will be inbetween and that a part of Miniautre making will remain strong enough to be key pillar. But it will be a back-up position IMHO.

GW is even removing the "Game" word from its ID and shifts to "Warhammer". 

 

[phandaal]

26 minutes ago, Triszin said:

Miniature company first.

Fomo collector company 2nd

Gaming company third

 

GW actually list their priorities in order in their investor reports. Miniatures are always the first thing, every time.

 

Gaming/rules are never the first thing mentioned.

 

Edited April 7 by phandaal
Accidentally a word

[DemonGSides]

There's a whole webpage dedicated to it.

https://investor.games-workshop.com/our-business-model

"We have a simple strategy at Games Workshop. We make the best fantasy miniatures in the world, to engage and inspire our customers, and to sell our products globally at a profit. We intend to do this forever. Our decisions are focused on long-term success, not short term gains."

They do mention games a bit on that website, but it's almost always in service of the models, or utilizing the models, or to get people into the store to buy more models.

[Noserenda]

Yeah GW is a miniatures company, the games are just a marketing ploy to sell those miniatures and they always have been.

[Captain Idaho]

Good information, all.

 

I think it's deeper than saying "they're a miniatures company." Both a gaming and a collector's approach would still be a miniatures company after all.

 

Essentially would the models exist without the game? Likely not, definitely in the scale the models are created in.

 

So going back to the OP; are GW producing and selling their items for a gaming market or collector's market? I think they're doing both as I mentioned, but I don't think this is a viable long term strategy for sales, at least on the scale we're seeing at the moment.

 

As an adult (until proven otherwise I am I guess ) with kids, a job and expenses (expensive expenses) it's becoming an expensive product to justify and reducing shelf life and predictability of such is making it even harder to justify investing into GW products.

 

Added to that my own kids, my friend's kids and the kids who attend the schools of friend's and exs (I dated a lot of teachers oddly enough), the competition for GW is there fiercely from Playstations and Fortnite etc.

 

I want my hobby to exist and thrive, of course! I can see a change needed in the approach by GW especially after the reactions of the community (seen on Facebook etc) to these product removal alongside past such events... and the fix can be relatively easy if GW doesn't go for the "all models are collector's pieces and also all models are gaming pieces" approach.

 

Splitting such things up is much more efficient.

 

2 hours ago, Doghouse said:

The modern trend seems to be in the very early stages of limited model runs becoming more frequent perhaps even one day replacing the staple boxes of miniatures in the far off future.

 

I actually think this is their strategy long term for existing alongside 3D printers competition. They produce models, move on and never look back so by the time 3D printed stuff has caught up, GW isn't affected.

[EverythingIsGreat]

19 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Essentially would the models exist without the game? Likely not, definitely in the scale the models are created in.

 

 

I think it may be more "would the models exist without a game?" It doesn't have to be any particular game, but WH40K fits nicely. The game obviously is part of the IP, but the IP starts with the concept, design, and casting of models. Also, when GW tells potential investors that it is a miniatures company, the point is pretty much settled. Such statements have legal ramifications.

 

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

"Yes", and they always have been:
 

 

 

Of course. That is why LE2 ("Leetu") made an appearance as a rather interesting character in BL novels all these decades later.

[Mogger351]

They're primarily a miniatures producer for collectors/collecting. I understand your point regards the game being a  driver but there are people who buy and collect the minis for the sakes of collecting, or in the knowledge they rarely if ever play the game.

 

I think GW has been shocked to some degree by the growth of the competitive mindset over the last 10 years. I feel the chop and change replacement of minis etc. Stem more from a reactive grab in that direction than anything.

 

If they're seeing people swapping armies to follow trends and metas, then they'll want to tap into that and the easiest way to keep it going is to ensure they can't then rotate back to last seasons flavour of the month.

[phandaal]

23 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I think it's deeper than saying "they're a miniatures company." Both a gaming and a collector's approach would still be a miniatures company after all.

 

Essentially would the models exist without the game? Likely not, definitely in the scale the models are created in.

 

No doubt they understand that having a game system encourages people to buy the models. It helps to understand where in the hierarchy that stacks up though. From their annual investor report, "Strategy and Objectives" section:

 

Quote

The first element is that we make high quality miniatures. We understand that what we make may not appeal to everyone, so to recruit and retain customers we are absolutely focused on making our models the best in the world. In order to continue to do that forever and to deliver a decent return to our owners, we sell our miniatures for a price that we believe represents the investment in their quality.

The second element is that we make fantasy miniatures based in our endless, imaginary worlds. This gives us control over the imagery and styles we use, and ownership of the IP. Aside from our core business, we are constantly looking to grow our licensing income from opportunities to use our IP in other markets.

The third element is that we are customer focused. We aim to communicate in an open, fun way. Whoever and wherever our customers are, and in whichever way they want to engage with Warhammer, we will do our utmost to support them.

 

Element 1 is miniatures. Top priority. Element 2 might include game rules, but seems entirely focused on the IP and again mentions the miniatures up front. Element 3 could refer to rules but does not explicitly mention them.

 

Their other two strategic elements are their global reach and their cash flow, so neither of those mentions rules.

 

In fact, as far as I can tell this is the first time they mention "games" (not video games) and the only time "rules" are explicitly mentioned in the entire investor report:

 

Quote

We design all of our products at our HQ in Nottingham. Employing c.300 people, the design studio creates all the IP and all the associated miniatures, artwork, games and publications that we sell. Annually, these specialist staff produce hundreds of new sculpts, illustrations, rules, stories etc. enabling us to deliver new products every week and continue to keep our customers engaged and excited.

 

Interestingly, they mention "box games" twice - once when they mention that their head of design is responsible for that, and once when they say they are making their box game packing more environmentally friendly. "Video games" show up in the report six times.

 

From this, it is clear that Games Workshop views and promotes themselves as a miniatures company with an IP that helps them sell miniatures and brings them revenue from outside licensing opportunities like video games.

[Dr. Clock]

14 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

So going back to the OP; are GW producing and selling their items for a gaming market or collector's market? I think they're doing both as I mentioned, but I don't think this is a viable long term strategy for sales, at least on the scale we're seeing at the moment.

Yes, it's clearly both. Its viability longterm seems pretty solid tbh based on the complimentarity, I hesitate to say 'synergy', of this approach.

 

Remember, there are more than 2 'hobby pillars'. It's not Collect > Play, it's Collect > Paint > Play. This 'triple offering' is a core feature of the brand and the hobby as a whole. The game / collect tension is a feature, not a bug.

 

I agree that there is a certain amount of risk entailed in trying to serve at minimum 3 masters, but on the whole I think it's been a stability benefit because it capitalizes on multiple desires and motivations instead of a few more specific ones.

 

I think we're seeing alot of anxiety and in some cases animosity over product churn that is and must always be the expected result of any firm with this many SKUs. There's a big difference between planned obsolescence and just... obsolescence, or indeed failure in the marketplace.

 

But it's also not as if the minis you bought that are no longer 'officially supported' disappear. This is not the same thing as ceasing production of replacement parts for a car or something - my 3rd Ed. Salamanders still exist, and it's taken a minute but I'm finally prepared to start just using rhinos as Impulsors and lumping all my plasmas together as hellblasters and flamers as Infernus etc. Finding new ways of using old stuff is part of the joy of the hobby, for me at least...

 

Basically I think that moving units into retirement is basically warranted for the health of the game and the business (because they are actually the same thing), and we should not take that personally because GW is not a person, but a business.

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

GW could release a collector's item range

 

'Pure' collectors' items already exist and are released by GW and its partners... McFarlane and HotToys and Space Marine Heroes, to say nothing of the random 'merch' that they chuck out from time to time. I don't give a toss about any of it pretty much because... I've got a dozen armies to swell lol. But also - Underworlds is pretty much this, as are the splash games like WHQuest, Space Hulk and Underworlds. 

 

Also - to my way of thinking the 'collector's range' is basically 'all single character offerings' IMO. I prefer to convert characters cheaper using bits or just using the ones that come in bundles now and then, but fundamentally I think that's their 'collector cash cow'.

 

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

The gaming side can be more measured. Sure things get updated and even occasionally rotated out depending on age and practicality, but the products in this part of the business are considered more stable and longevity for a base game is the idea here.

 

Isn't this kind of what we have? I think we need to look at the whole roster of games, not just 40k as that's a bit misleading. 40k is the cutting edge 'living game', but Heresy is and will be 'locked in' alot tighter because it is deliberately more narrow. They are trying a similar thing with AoS/Fantasy now. And then you get the weird interactions or non-interactions between skirmish and wargame offerings. I love using minis in multiple games, but I understand that it makes no business sense to market 5 new terminators right alongside the 10 Heresy terminators. Diversifying the games lets them diversify the offerings while still capturing as many gaming and modeling interests as possible.

 

Some people will always cross the streams, but it pays not to endorse or encourage that much now that the product lines are that much more complete and diverse, and the third party space so populous and hard to defend against. 

 

Anyway - interesting discussion... Thanks for bringing it up : )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Scribe]

Their games have always been a vehicle to push the models, 10th edition, AoS initial release?

 

If GW was a game company they would have sunk.

[Captain Idaho]

51 minutes ago, USNCenturion said:

Considering GW started making miniatures for existing games, I’d say they’re a miniature company at their core. That they now make game systems to sell their models doesn’t really change that. 
 

Id argue they had more gamers making decisions a few decades ago and now it’s more bean counters and analysts running things. 

 

I think you're right there. Definitely seems less focused on the quality games, what with the way things have ran recently in the studio.

 

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I think GW has been shocked to some degree by the growth of the competitive mindset over the last 10 years. I feel the chop and change replacement of minis etc. Stem more from a reactive grab in that direction than anything.

 

I think you're spot on here. I think GW doesn't realise their miniatures to some people are a means to play the games, or at least how much that is an investment for many people.

 

We see online, folk say often that the miniatures are their hobby and collecting them to play is secondary, or equal, but I think this is more wishful thinking as to the extent it influences sales. Not that people DON'T feel that way, but rather if the games didn't exist, a fraction of people would buy the models. Such a thing would see erosion of the hobby in general, so the games are critical.

 

Kind of like the boxing club I go to. There are a few decent boxers there and the coaches tried gearing everything up for carded fighters or those with such intent. It eroded the club and saw most people leave, eventually causing those competing to leave as well. By shifting things back so all types are catered for, the club is now very successful and has lots of "keep fitters", carded boxers and all between.

 

That's how GW needs to run. Cater to gamers and collectors and all in-between. We've seen folk upset that the competitive aspect of 40K was focused on at the expense of narrative, particularly the rules - that's leaning too far to the purest gamers of course and it sucks for business.

 

So positively speaking, a balance should be had and my idea of having a collector's aspect of miniatures separately/in addition to a more stable number of miniatures might be preferable.

[jaxom]

Does anyone know, for comparison, how often Privateer Press rotates or removes minis from their line? I think we’re so used to GW as the 500lb gorilla that can do what other game companies can’t that it’s weird to see their production-customer balance enter into that territory.

 

More directly to the OP question - they make miniatures first and then second they make the power fantasy. That’s what the second point about IP boils down to. Games (table top and digital) let people engage in the power fantasy.

 

In many ways this recent turn of events reminds me of console generations.

[Joe]

I can't speak for Privateer Press, however Warlord Games, the closest approximation to Games Workshop in terms of how they operate, does rotate miniatures out on a semi-regular basis (typically so a mould can be refreshed, as they squeeze as much as they can out of what they have). They also engage fairly heavily in time-limited models (typically a character freebie tied to a new book release).

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I don't think they're a collector's item company. While they seem to like their FOMO for the most part you're missing out on a cover or early access/discount. I think the removal models is business driven. They haven't done a good of keeping things in stock, so making batches of models that don't sell well doesn't make sense.  They only use certain fractions for starter sets, and the bloat is real (this is frustrating as a gamer because Marines, and Stormcast don't need to be in every starter). They also want to eliminate crossover forces that make reporting hard which I think is kind of dumb from an overall profit mindset.  

 

That said I do think the line between miniatures company and gaming company is becoming blurry. The rules are practically live service at this point, and ToW is reusing a lot of old sculpts at new mini prices. They also make a lot of money during edition changes and to be honest it's starting to feel like index editions are going to be the norm. 

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

It's a Miniatures company. And aren't my words,but theirs. They stated  thst in their web page.Their primary and, I can say it loud,only objective is to sell miniatures. Not paints, not merchandise, not even games. Miniatures. All is around this concept, from FAQs to licensed products or events.

 

Plain as that

Edited April 7 by Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf

[Robbienw]

Bit of both.

[Captain Idaho]

24 minutes ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

It's a Miniatures company. And aren't my words,but theirs. They stated  thst in their web page.Their primary and, I can say it loud,only objective is to sell miniatures. Not paints, not merchandise, not even games. Miniatures. All is around this concept, from FAQs to licensed products or events.

 

Plain as that

 

That doesn't answer the question. Miniatures for what, a game or a collection? Temporary purchases, FOMO? Stability product lines base with sprinkles on top? All of it?

 

If all of it, both methods etc, then how should things be done efficiently? What will keep most people happy as opposed to the reactions we've seen from the latest AoS and previous Firstborn and Forge World etc events?

 

Saying "they're a miniatures company" doesn't answer the questions, unfortunately. Because the question was never "does GW sell miniatures".

[Captain Idaho]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

Isn't this kind of what we have? I think we need to look at the whole roster of games, not just 40k as that's a bit misleading. 40k is the cutting edge 'living game', but Heresy is and will be 'locked in' alot tighter because it is deliberately more narrow. They are trying a similar thing with AoS/Fantasy now. And then you get the weird interactions or non-interactions between skirmish and wargame offerings. I love using minis in multiple games, but I understand that it makes no business sense to market 5 new terminators right alongside the 10 Heresy terminators. Diversifying the games lets them diversify the offerings while still capturing as many gaming and modeling interests as possible.

 

Some people will always cross the streams, but it pays not to endorse or encourage that much now that the product lines are that much more complete and diverse, and the third party space so populous and hard to defend against. 

 

Anyway - interesting discussion... Thanks for bringing it up : )

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

A very interesting development indeed. 40K seems much more turbulent in it's release schedule and nothing feels permanent, though that is likely unfair as many items are still there (Warp Spiders are like a billion years old for example - barely even exaggerating!).

 

Peripheral games (Necromunda and Blood Bowl for example) seem much more stable in release schedule and like mentioned yes Horus Heresy appears such too.

 

But then... that could be the mythical studio vs specialist games rumour we've seen discussed on the YouTubes etc - rivalry and management differences due to associated sales.

[firestorm40k]

As has been pointed out above, the company's investor blurb states pretty clearly that the priority is miniatures. It's also worth remembering the design process - a concept for a miniature is designed, then the rules writers develop background and rules for it. In the past this has seen some decisions that have raised some eyebrows - such as the Chaos Marine updates in 2012, which saw the introduction of the Helldrake and Forgefiend, when many players were expecting Forgeworld kits like the Hellblade and various daemon engines to be turned into plastic kits. 

 

So that's just another example of how GW is miniatures first, games/rules sometime after.