Is GW a gaming Company or collector's item Company?

[Emperor Ming]

Its officially a publishing company isn't it? 

 

The continual book/edition churn means physical book revenue is constant

 

Not everyone will buy new models, but generally, most will buy their new codex

[EverythingIsGreat]

Well, unless the new codex makes your models obsolete.

 

They never were a collectibles company. As far as I am aware, they never marketed to collectors. It was always marketing to gamers-(cum-collectors).

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

Kind of like the boxing club I go to. There are a few decent boxers there and the coaches tried gearing everything up for carded fighters or those with such intent. It eroded the club and saw most people leave, eventually causing those competing to leave as well. By shifting things back so all types are catered for, the club is now very successful and has lots of "keep fitters", carded boxers and all between.

 

That's how GW needs to run. Cater to gamers and collectors and all in-between. We've seen folk upset that the competitive aspect of 40K was focused on at the expense of narrative, particularly the rules - that's leaning too far to the purest gamers of course and it sucks for business.

 

Perfect call out.

[Captain Idaho]

15 minutes ago, firestorm40k said:

As has been pointed out above, the company's investor blurb states pretty clearly that the priority is miniatures. It's also worth remembering the design process - a concept for a miniature is designed, then the rules writers develop background and rules for it. In the past this has seen some decisions that have raised some eyebrows - such as the Chaos Marine updates in 2012, which saw the introduction of the Helldrake and Forgefiend, when many players were expecting Forgeworld kits like the Hellblade and various daemon engines to be turned into plastic kits. 

 

So that's just another example of how GW is miniatures first, games/rules sometime after.

 

I'll quote myself that answers this response:

 

43 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

That doesn't answer the question. Miniatures for what, a game or a collection? Temporary purchases, FOMO? Stability product lines base with sprinkles on top? All of it?

 

If all of it, both methods etc, then how should things be done efficiently? What will keep most people happy as opposed to the reactions we've seen from the latest AoS and previous Firstborn and Forge World etc events?

 

Saying "they're a miniatures company" doesn't answer the questions, unfortunately. Because the question was never "does GW sell miniatures".

 

[phandaal]

6 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'll quote myself that answers this response:

 

 

It is hard to draw a distinct line between gamer/collector for Warhammer though. Many people would at least claim they are somewhere along the spectrum of both things, even if they never actually put models on the tabletop or build/paint most of what they buy.

 

Doubt GW is making a hard distinction either. They obviously know some of their customers are focused on collecting and some on gaming, and they know that their games help them sell miniatures.

 

So the best answer is that Games Workshop is by their own definition and presentation focused on selling miniatures, doing things that enable the sale of miniatures, and using their intellectual property to make license fees.

[Captain Idaho]

That supports my position that GW should be more careful in their product line removal and stability etc 

 

What people do with their models leads is up to them of course, but the principle is generally true - if you can't play with your models and it bothers you, GW should do something about it.

[SvenIronhand]

The latter is what the suits would like it to be, yes.

[alfred_the_great]

49 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

if you can't play with your models and it bothers you, GW should do something about it.

If it “bothers you”, that’s on you, not GW. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Haven’t they come out and said that they’re in the business of making models not making games.

games are just a vehicle to sell the models.

[EverythingIsGreat]

Some of the commentary could lead a casual reader to believe that GW is on a downward trend, or that their turnover has stagnated, or that their profit margins have shrunk. But none of these objective measures are in the negative. As essentially a leisure company in these non-leisurely times GW has done ok.

 

I suppose hobbyists will always agonize over one thing or another, that's  par for the course.

[Gamiel]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

if you can't play with your models

But nothing stop people from playing with their models. GW is not sending out squads to kick in doors and tell people that they can't play with discounted models.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

3 hours ago, Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf said:

It's a Miniatures company. And aren't my words,but theirs. They stated  thst in their web page.Their primary and, I can say it loud,only objective is to sell miniatures. Not paints, not merchandise, not even games. Miniatures. All is around this concept, from FAQs to licensed products or events.

 

Plain as that

 

I can believe that they feel that selling miniatures is their main objective and their foundation as a business. That said it is in no way their only objective. They want to sell you the rules, the paints, the lore, hobby tools, and their streaming service/apps. They put too much money into things like the paint line for me to believe otherwise. It doesn't hurt that I don't trust CEOs to be very transparent especially if something like rules churn is good for them. Admitting that would be bad PR and it's much better to advertise a new edition that will make the game using their miniatures more fun. 

 

12 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

But nothing stop people from playing with their models. GW is not sending out squads to kick in doors and tell people that they can't play with discounted models.

 

They won't but I've noticed a trend of people wanting the game to have one format over the last few years. GW has taken advantage of that IMO, which I can't really blame them for. Realistically that means some people won't be able to use their discontinued models because of their opponents may not want to work with them on it.

[Captain Idaho]

Reality is people don't play out of date editions or even units.

 

Otherwise why does GW redo editions etc and why do they sell? 

 

1 hour ago, alfred_the_great said:

If it “bothers you”, that’s on you, not GW. 

 

So not being able to play games with stuff you specifically bought for games, because GW removes the rules and stops supporting them, is the fault of the customer?

 

Again, as mentioned above, the vast majority of people don't play old, out of date rules.

[Rain]

The issue is not so much particular models being phased out/replaced, as it is units being removed and replaced by a functional equivalent that is just different enough that you have to buy the new models (or, sometimes, nothing at all.)

 

For example, I don’t think anyone cared when the metal Chaos sock-flail dread was “replaced” by the Helbrute because you could still use the metal chunker if you wanted to as it’s clearly the same unit, with the same options, it’s just a new model and name.

 

Hell, it’s even fine if they add more options to a unit to inspire further purchases, such as the chaincannon for CSM units, as long as they don’t remove the ability to use the old models for the given unit, should you wish to.

 

On the other hand, World Eaters completely lost any jump pack troops (called “Raptors” or otherwise), any bike troops, had possessed needlessly replaced by Eightbound which aren’t quite 1 to 1, etc.

Edited April 7 by Rain

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

4 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

That doesn't answer the question. Miniatures for what, a game or a collection? Temporary purchases, FOMO? Stability product lines base with sprinkles on top? All of it?

 

If all of it, both methods etc, then how should things be done efficiently? What will keep most people happy as opposed to the reactions we've seen from the latest AoS and previous Firstborn and Forge World etc events?

 

Saying "they're a miniatures company" doesn't answer the questions, unfortunately. Because the question was never "does GW sell miniatures".

Miniatures for miniatures. They don't really care if you collect or play or whatever. They just want to make you buy miniatures. If they wanted to have an specific target, for example gaming or collector miniatures, they will have more specific target politics. Now they're trying, slowly, to reach the competitive world, but in the end,GW only wants one thing. What do you do with their products in your private ambient, except reselling, it's only your (our) problem. That's because they don't have specific procedures like other companies like Corvus Belli or Mantic.

[Wispy]

GW's identity is a miniature company first and everything else is secondary. They've proudly proclaimed this on numerous occasions. Make the best miniatures until the end of time 

 

I don't distinguish the collecting aspect with them being a miniature company m they go hand in hand. 

Edited April 7 by Wispy

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yeah, they're 100% a miniature company. 

The game is a part of the strategy to sell minis over time.

The current FOMO is a tactic to sell minis fast.

They don't give a toss about our collections.

 

 

Edited April 8 by Interrogator Stobz

[alfred_the_great]

8 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

 

So not being able to play games with stuff you specifically bought for games, because GW removes the rules and stops supporting them, is the fault of the customer?

 

Again, as mentioned above, the vast majority of people don't play old, out of date rules.

only if you think it’s on GW to support everything, for ever. and I know of literally no business who works in that way: do you?
 

I irregularly play WFRP 1e - I brought lots of stuff for it, just because we’re now on 4e doesn’t mean I can’t play it. Same same for Iron Kingdoms 1e. 
 

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

14 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

That doesn't answer the question. Miniatures for what, a game or a collection? Temporary purchases, FOMO? Stability product lines base with sprinkles on top? All of it?

 

Does it matter which? You buy the dollies either way? Practically speaking they're a miniatures making company front and centre. Collecting, building, painting, playing, lore, video games are all vehicles (and ancilliary) for them to sell the product to you. Their Product, Miniature design and painting teams are huge compared to the relatively small Rules teams. GW wouldn't make the profit it does if it was a gaming first company. Books don't make the money miniatures do, even with GW's markup. They can afford to operate at a loss on books and paints etc if they needed to and still be more than sustained by dollies alone

 

 

Quote

If all of it, both methods etc, then how should things be done efficiently? What will keep most people happy as opposed to the reactions we've seen from the latest AoS and previous Firstborn and Forge World etc events?

 

We as a forum or Reddit or GW Social media channels are not "most people" in the hobby. It's not even close It's an extremely loud, small minority for sure

Space Marines and Stormcast are the largest single factions in their respective games but aren't close to majority. I think it'd be reasonably accurate to say that Firstborn only collectors aren't even close to majority within Space Marines as a whole anymore.

Are a lot of people affected by Firstborn disappearing or Early Stormcast disappearing (that article was very silly honestly, most of that SCE stuff is being refreshed or has a direct analogue), yes absolutely!

Airfix don't make the same Spitfire kit they made in the 50s, Gunpla don't make the same kits from the 90s, Magic doesn't make the same cards from the 90s. These examples are constantly making new and remaking kits, there's no expectation for those to stay as they are and there's no reason to in the current market.

 

If removing Firstborn or refreshing Stormcast was actually an issue for them, would they have done it and would they still be making so much money?

 

[Captain Idaho]

Well it does matter, as I don't buy their products unless the game is worthwhile. 40K hasn't felt that for me for quite some time so I don't buy into them. I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

Whilst we're just a forum, there is a large number of people on multiple media platforms echoing similar concerns. The video game industry has lower people on such media than total customers but they too have repercussions from media spotlight. Off subject but there is a whole thing of a minority of people being unhappy with certain video games manufacturing and making a list of those who games made, which in turn despite there being a minority comparatively it is seeing a decline in sales.

 

Off subject but GW business isn't a free swimming "they're making profits so who cares" kind of thing. Economically there are internal profits for certain departments in competition, customer retention, longevity strategies etc.

 

If GW made all their profits off Primaris for example, how does this impact sales and investment of other things?

 

What I'm getting at is GW needs to retain customers and we are needed, despite the Internet troupe that "well they don't want your business anyway they want kids" meme we see.

 

And yes, GW does things incorrectly a lot. By the logic of "GW did it so must be profitable", why are so many profitable Stormcast being withdrawn then? I thought they were profitable?

Edited April 8 by Captain Idaho

[TrawlingCleaner]

42 minutes ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well it does matter, as I don't buy their products unless the game is worthwhile. 40K hasn't felt that for me for quite some time so I don't buy into them. I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

Whilst we're just a forum, there is a large number of people on multiple media platforms echoing similar concerns. The video game industry has lower people on such media than total customers but they too have repercussions from media spotlight. Off subject but there is a whole thing of a minority of people being unhappy with certain video games manufacturing and making a list of those who games made, which in turn despite there being a minority comparatively it is seeing a decline in sales.

 

Off subject but GW business isn't a free swimming "they're making profits so who cares" kind of thing. Economically there are internal profits for certain departments in competition, customer retention, longevity strategies etc.

 

If GW made all their profits off Primaris for example, how does this impact sales and investment of other things?

 

What I'm getting at is GW needs to retain customers and we are needed, despite the Internet troupe that "well they don't want your business anyway they want kids" meme we see.

 

And yes, GW does things incorrectly a lot. By the logic of "GW did it so must be profitable", why are so many profitable Stormcast being withdrawn then? I thought they were profitable?

 

I probably should've been clearer, my bad 

To GW, does it matter which part of the hobby takes preference for people? The different parts of the hobby are ancillary and vehicles for them to sell miniatures to you. Gaming, painting, building, collecting, reading just feeds back into people buying models

 

Yes, they make money on the majority of the products they sell but the largest part of their money making is selling dollies.

 

To speak frankly though, for every person that leaves the hobby for whatever reason or stops playing or collecting for a game there are X amount of people joining the hobby and Y amount of people enjoying it. Their profits are higher than they've been and more people are in the hobby.

How many people on social media that say "I'll never buy a GW product again" when a model is retired, actually quit? How much of it actually sticks? 

The cynic in me says that realistically people will be "back" like when they dropped Epic or drop a new nostalgia hit

 

Falling out of enjoyment of the hobby sucks, there's no two ways about it. People being passionate about the hobby and enjoying the hobby is fantastic and honestly why I enjoy being part of the community. When I talk about GW's business decisions, I really don't relish the thought of people dropping out of the hobby, I'm just speaking realistically

 

For the Stormcast being dropped as an example, is it that Stormcast aren't profitable? Or is it that they've pretty dramatically changed design language and have considerable (self created) bloat? Which would be pretty similar to Firstborn?

The Mark 3 marines released for HH 6-7 years ago seem a fairer comparison to the Stormcast stuff

[Chaplain Killmer]

Idaho I think that is exactly the problem. After 30+ years that the game now exists it picked up many different interests and ways the hobby is enjoyed by the hobbyists. I am totally with you in your point that a game that is in no way a cheap hobby should maintain stability to make sure that your work collection is "working".

 

Over the years many changes have come to the game but to the models as well that is not always working in this direction. Bases are getting bigger ans so are the models on them - now to a point where a single terminator is a large as the 1st gen dreadnought. Or the first gen terminator is smaller than a regular primaris space marine.

 

On the other side the improved size and better production methods improved especially marine sculpts enormously. Together with the improved paints and techniques its hard to keep an unified look of your army.

 

... and on a side note the army is much harder to transport without breaking something.

 

Then there is the FOMO, the older flavour of the month and codex creep aspect of the game and new iterations of the game with new edition. Sure those are partly driven by sales intentions but wishes of the player base shows the different wishes too. Especially if you look in our topics about hopes and wishes for a new edition ... and the topics that deal with the results.

[Tokugawa]

The reason for a customer to buy a box of model could vary: sculpt, story, rules, discount, conversion etc.

 

The reason for a customer to buy the second or more box of the same unit: 95% chance it's gaming, especially competitive gaming. 

[Orange Knight]

Gaming Company

Collector’s Item Company

 

These are not mutually exclusive. Both support a pattern of releases that GW has been focusing on over the past 5+ years, both support models and rules coming and going at regular intervals.

 

I think that GW realise that the zeitgeist around new releases pushes sales more than anything. For this reason, they continue to put efforts into waves of new models, rules and books that drop frequently for the various games they support.

 

If their focus is on being a gaming company, then models being discontinued for the sake of the gaming experience is not an unusual thing. Ranges can become bloated and unwieldy. They might have to be culled for the health of the game.

 

If they view their product as a collectible, then models being discontinued is again, not unusual. Collectibles can, by their nature, exist as limited time releases that come and go as time passes.

 

Ultimately, I don’t see GW being very different to how they have always been. The biggest change is how accelerated things have become – they are churning out new models, armies, and games far quicker than they used to. I think this has caused some whiplash in the community, especially when we see modern plastic kits get discontinued.

 

Ultimately, they are pushing the new thing and relying on an element of FOMO to boost sales. It’s working for them, it’s not going to change. As they continue to grow the model line, I expect we’ll see more and more cuts to older units as time goes on. I’m expecting all of the classic marines to be culled by 11th edition, although some iconic units such as the Landraider might be re-imagined for the Primaris range.

[Special Officer Doofy]

2 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

Well it does matter, as I don't buy their products unless the game is worthwhile. 40K hasn't felt that for me for quite some time so I don't buy into them. I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

You're not alone. I only bought and painted the overpriced plastic to play the game, and the game is not great right now (mine and my whole gaming group's opinion that quit). I got a coworker into the game shortly after 8th. Now I feel bad because I quit and I was the only person he knows that played. I go out of my way now to tell people to NOT join the hobby. 

 

GW better not see themselves as a gaming company. Their models are usually top tier. Their game is not. Bad rules, lack of balance, slow codex churn, codex creep, short editions, drastic rule changes, not having the option for going fully digital, etc. For a billion dollar company, and wh40k being their main product, the game could be so much better.