Consolidated Primaris units - Fan-made codex

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

44 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

they could create "armour" boxes like Tacticus, Gravis, Terminator etc

I've advocated for and actually written a fan codex that consolodates Primaris datasheets to essentially:

• Battleline Squad in Tacticus (Intercessors, T5, 2W, 3+. Heavy Bolter option. Sergeant upgrades: melee weapons, pistols/proper combi weapons)
• Battleline Squad in Phobos (Infiltrators, Incursors, T4, 2W, 3+. Omniscrambler/Multi-Sprectrum unit wargear. Camo Cloak unit upgrade. Sergeant upgrades)
• Battleline Squad in Gravis (Heavy Intercessors, T6, 2W, 3+. Sergeant upgrades)
• Cllose Support Squad in Tacticus (Assault Intercessors. Plasma Pistol option. Sergeant melee and pistol options. 12" Jump Pack unit upgrade)
• Close Support Squad in Phobos (Rievers, Plasma Pistol option, Sergeant melee and pistol options. 14" Jump Pack/Grav Chute unit upgrade.)
• Close Support Squad in Gravis (Inceptors, Sergeant melee options. 10" Jump Pack)
• Fire Support Squad in Tacticus (Hellblasters, Infernus, Desolation Lascannon)
• Fire Support Squad in Phobos (Eliminators, something sabotage. Camo Cloak unit upgrade)
• Fire Support Squad in Gravis (Eradicators, Agressors, Grav version, Volkite version?)
• Veteran Squad in Tacticus (Sternguard/Vanguard)
• Veteran Squad in Phobos (Sternguard/vanguard in phobos camo cloaks, grav chute phobos jump pack)
• Veteran Squad in Gravis (Sternguard/vanguard in gravis)
• Veteran Squad in Terminator (T6, 2W, 2+/4++Tactical/Assault)

 

On my T/W/Sv characteristics, Id want to dial back the number of wounds models have while opening up the toughness range more like GW has already done with Vehicles. For context:

• Guard: T3,1W,5+ (Flak Armour)
• SOB: T4,1W,3+ (Power Armour)
• Scout: T4,2W,4+ (Carapace Armour)
• Boy: T5,1W,5+ (Flack Equivelent) 

Edited April 9 by ChapterMasterGodfrey

[ThaneOfTas]

8 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

I've advocated for and actually written a fan codex that consolodates Primaris datasheets to essentially:

I have been seriously considering doing something similar and would be very interested in seeing what you've come up with if you'd be willing to share?

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

7 minutes ago, ThaneOfTas said:

I have been seriously considering doing something similar and would be very interested in seeing what you've come up with if you'd be willing to share?

I wrote it for 9th edition, so will need to update it to 10th layout and weapon and untit USRs. Happy to turn it into a collaborative effort though! Please see my above comment for initial thoughts plans

[CCE1981]

21 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

I've advocated for and actually written a fan codex that consolodates Primaris datasheets to essentially:

• Battleline Squad in Tacticus (Intercessors, T5, 2W, 3+. Heavy Bolter option. Sergeant upgrades: melee weapons, pistols/proper combi weapons)
• Battleline Squad in Phobos (Infiltrators, Incursors, T4, 2W, 3+. Omniscrambler/Multi-Sprectrum unit wargear. Camo Cloak unit upgrade. Sergeant upgrades)
• Battleline Squad in Gravis (Heavy Intercessors, T6, 2W, 3+. Sergeant upgrades)
• Cllose Support Squad in Tacticus (Assault Intercessors. Plasma Pistol option. Sergeant melee and pistol options. 12" Jump Pack unit upgrade)
• Close Support Squad in Phobos (Rievers, Plasma Pistol option, Sergeant melee and pistol options. 14" Jump Pack/Grav Chute unit upgrade.)
• Close Support Squad in Gravis (Inceptors, Sergeant melee options. 10" Jump Pack)
• Fire Support Squad in Tacticus (Hellblasters, Infernus, Desolation Lascannon)
• Fire Support Squad in Phobos (Eliminators, something sabotage. Camo Cloak unit upgrade)
• Fire Support Squad in Gravis (Eradicators, Agressors, Grav version, Volkite version?)
• Veteran Squad in Tacticus (Sternguard/Vanguard)
• Veteran Squad in Phobos (Sternguard/vanguard in phobos camo cloaks, grav chute phobos jump pack)
• Veteran Squad in Gravis (Sternguard/vanguard in gravis)
• Veteran Squad in Terminator (T6, 2W, 2+/4++Tactical/Assault)

 

On my T/W/Sv characteristics, Id want to dial back the number of wounds models have while opening up the toughness range more like GW has already done with Vehicles. For context:

• Guard: T3,1W,5+ (Flak Armour)
• SOB: T4,1W,3+ (Power Armour)
• Scout: T4,2W,4+ (Carapace Armour)
• Boy: T5,1W,5+ (Flack Equivelent) 

Don’t forget about the Dreadnoughts, also while doing so the Fire Support option needs a Rifleman build.  I think 3 of those Suppressor autocannons together on each arm sound right.   Something like A 3 Rapidfire 2 Str 8 AP-1 d3, meaning 10 shots in Rapidfire range from both guns sounds about right.  It never sat well with me that historically Dreadnought guns were exactly the same as the Infantry version, and the Ballistus Dreadnought isn’t much of an improvement, hence the low shot volume, but it at least feels a bit better.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

5 minutes ago, CCE1981 said:

Don’t forget about the Dreadnoughts, also while doing so the Fire Support option needs a Rifleman build.

Yeah I agree. TO be fair I think if the way Contemptor wargear is treated in HH could be ported in idea to the Redemptor chasis that would be great. To your point, duel gatlings, duel plasmas, duel las cannons etc. We have duel fists.

[TrawlingCleaner]

=][= I've stripped this out of another topic as I think it would be a better fit here =][=

[CCE1981]

The Hammerfall Bunker’s missile launcher needs to be indirect fire.

 

A line of armor for all characters.  Gravis Librarians sound fun.

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

8 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

A line of armor for all characters

You mean, like this:

• Captain in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Captain in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

  • ^{Reiver Mask Upgrade}

• Captain in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Captain in Terminator Armour

• Lieutenant in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Lieutenant in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

  • ^{Reiver Mask Upgrade}

• Lieutenant in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Lieutenant in Terminator Armour

• Librarian in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Librarian in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Librarian in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Librarian in Terminator Armour

• Chaplain in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Chaplain in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Chaplain in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Chaplain in Terminator Armour

• Apothecary in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Apothecary in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Apothecary in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Apothecary in Terminator Armour

• Techmarine in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Techmarine in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Techmarine in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Techmarine in Terminator Armour

• Ancient in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Ancient in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Ancient in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Ancient in Terminator Armour

• Champion in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Champion in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Champion in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Champion in Terminator Armour

• Command Squad in Tacticus Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Bike Upgrade}

• Command Squad in Phobos Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

  • ^{Grav Shute Upgrade}

  • ^{Camo Cloak Upgrade}

• Command Squad in Gravis Armour

  • ^{Jump Pack Upgrade}

• Command Squad in Terminator Armour

[CCE1981]

Yup.
 

Though I would wrap the Ancient and Champion into the Command Squad.  I do like how the Dark Angel Black Knights do it.  Apothecary, Ancient, Champion, must attach a Captain the. Attach to a Squad.

 

 So many units, also bikes.

Edited April 11 by CCE1981

[ThaneOfTas]

4 hours ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

You mean, like this:

Is it really necessary to let gravis and Phobos have access to Jump Packs? Regardless, feels like making armour type be an upgrade would be a bit neater e.g.

 

Captain

-Phobos Armour

-Gravis Armour

-Terminator Armour

-Bike

-Jump Pack

 

Etc...

 

And then just create a Phobos or Gravis Armoured Character Wargear list with the Weapons. Further reduces data sheet bloat while increasing options. Can then just tie statline changes to the Armour upgrade. (e.g. Gravis gives 5" M and +1 T, Phobos the inverse, Bike 12"m and +2W, jetpack 12" M and Fly) 

 

Hell if you really wanted to a simple "a Character may only take a single upgrade, with the exception of the Jump Pack, which can be taken in addition to the Phobos and Gravis upgrades." Would let you keep access to the jump pack for those units.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said:

Is it really necessary to let gravis and Phobos have access to Jump Packs? Regardless, feels like making armour type be an upgrade would be a bit neater e.g.

I think it's a technical manual issue. If there's a single entry per Title then a reader has to move attention between it and any equipment tables. A single entry per Title+Armour means you can deliver the pre-sorted equipment options in the same place. A good example is the difference between the old 3rd edition Marine Codex (tables separate, rules separate), the current Legiones Astartes list (equipment pre-sorted, rules separate), and 10th edition data slates (equipment pre-sorted and rules local).

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Further

On 4/9/2024 at 12:21 PM, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

• Battleline Squad in Tacticus (Intercessors, T5, 2W, 3+. Heavy Bolter option. Sergeant upgrades: melee weapons, pistols/proper combi weapons)
• Battleline Squad in Phobos (Infiltrators, Incursors, T4, 2W, 3+. Omniscrambler/Multi-Sprectrum unit wargear. Camo Cloak unit upgrade. Sergeant upgrades)
• Battleline Squad in Gravis (Heavy Intercessors, T6, 2W, 3+. Sergeant upgrades)
• Cllose Support Squad in Tacticus (Assault Intercessors. Plasma Pistol option. Sergeant melee and pistol options. 12" Jump Pack unit upgrade)
• Close Support Squad in Phobos (Rievers, Plasma Pistol option, Sergeant melee and pistol options. 14" Jump Pack/Grav Chute unit upgrade.)
• Close Support Squad in Gravis (Inceptors, Sergeant melee options. 10" Jump Pack)
• Fire Support Squad in Tacticus (Hellblasters, Infernus, Desolation Lascannon)
• Fire Support Squad in Phobos (Eliminators, something sabotage. Camo Cloak unit upgrade)
• Fire Support Squad in Gravis (Eradicators, Agressors, Grav version, Volkite version?)

Further to this idea, I think it would be really easy to pivot to this from where we are currently. Here's how I'd name these units:

• Tactical Intercessors
• Infiltrators
• Heavy Intercessors
• Assault Intercessors
• Despoliers (Reiver masks are upgrades)
• Inceptors
• Devastators
• Eliminators
• Heavy Devastators

Some more of my thought process: I want each armour mark to feel distict. Phobos is the light and stealthy armour mark. Tacticus is the classic Space Marine, still fast, but not really stealthy - shock troops. Gravis is heavy armour, slower and hard to shift. This lead me to think about the defence characteristics and what they actually mean.

 

Starting with Wounds, this one is easy the guys inside the armour marks are all Space Marines, all the same, therefore 2W for all of them as they are twice the size (mostly) of normal humans. Only heroic characters should go up in wounds.

 

Next the save. Again going back historically, "Power Armour" always meant (in my experience) a 3+ save and Terminator armour meant a 2+/4++ - beacuse it's better than waht Cawl can invent, it's from the dark age.

 

Toughness, now this one is where I deviate from the norm. Gravis is currently T6 and Phobos should be tougher than a GEM, so the scale wrote itself. Phobos, Tacticus, Gravis, Terminator=T4/T5/T6/T6. to me this is how much armour there is, how thick it is. That's why Gravis and Terminator is the same, theres the same amount of armour but Terminator is esoterically better therefore the saves are better. Likewise, a classic Space Marine and an Ork Boy should be as tough as each other. the Ork falls down on his save because he's wearing a T-Shirt.

 

Okay what does all this mean? Well, I wanted to quantify my choices and made a Defence Value for each armour mark by taking a mean average of their defence stats. I turned things with a +3 characteristic into "4" a la HH (for those who don't know subtract the value from 7 to get the "+" value) to give numbers that would all play together:

	T	W	Sv	Invuln	FNP	Def. Val.
Guard	3	1	2	0	0	1.2
Phobos	4	2	4	0	0	2
Tacticus	5	2	4	0	0	2.2
Gravis	6	2	4	0	0	2.4
Termie	6	2	5	3	0	3.2

 

As you can see the Cawl pattern armour marks are really well spaced between each other and Terminator armour feels tanky. The caveat is that Phobos can access camo cloaks which give Stealth ability which will increase the defensive value and need to be a paid for upgrade. 

 

Next up, Movement. This is where I'd really apprciate peoples input. I want Phobos to be fast and stealthy and as Space marines they should be faster than GEM. Therefore I suggest they have 7"M & Infiltrate baseline. Tacticus are just as fast as phobos but they're not stealthy, therefore they are 7"M. Now, Gravis/Terminators. They should be slower than the previous two marks but the question is should they be slower than GEM, afterall they're still Space Marines in power armour. So is 6"M fair or 5", Termies with Deep Strike?

 

Now let's talk Jump packs. Thanks to Kayvaan Shrike, we've seen Phobos jump packs. When he came out too he actually had a 14"M and this is why I initially thought Phobos jump packs should be 14"M. However, I have since come to the understanding that again Phobos should be no faster than Tacticus and both marks' jump packs should be 12" with Phobos losing Infiltrate and gaining deep strike, you can't sneak around with a massive jump pack on (don't talk to me about Invictors). I feel Gravis jump packs are fine at 10". Side note on this: Grav-Chutes are also an option for Despoiler squads which also replace Infiltrate with Deep Strike but don't modify M.

 

Now strength I think this should stay as 4 with 3 attacks of the CCW as base, veterans with 4.

 

 

 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

2 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

feels like making armour type be an upgrade would be a bit neater

I have tried this, it gets messy quite quickly especially with gains x keywaord, loses x ability. It's not like old artificer armour which was just a 2+ save.

[CCE1981]

39 minutes ago, ChapterMasterGodfrey said:

I have tried this, it gets messy quite quickly especially with gains x keywaord, loses x ability. It's not like old artificer armour which was just a 2+ save.

Unless you just have a baseline that is good for all armor, and add the armor separately.

 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

Yeah but like I say Phobos units have infiltrate, then if they have camo cloaks they have stealth. The difference is less severe between tacticus and Gravis I’ll grant you, but as I mentioned there’s a lot of changes the armour marks make to try and fit and word efficiently 

 

edit: just to add I like the greater differences with different abilities like the aforementioned infiltrate, it helps give each armour mark flavour 

Edited April 11 by ChapterMasterGodfrey

[CCE1981]

Have the entry, and nest equipment into the armor. So something like:

 

Captain

 -May take one of the following Armour

     - Phobos M 7”, T 4, S 3+, W 5, Ld 5, OC 1

         - May take a Camo Cloak

         - May take a Skull Mask

         -may be armed with one ranged, one pistol and one melee from the following: 

             - Master-Crafted Instigator Bolt Carbine

             - Master Crafted Bolt Sniper Rifle

             - etc

 

   -Tacitus M 7”, T 5, S 3+, W 5, Ld 5, OC 1

        -  May take a Jump Pack increasing Movement to 12”

        - may be armed with one Ranged or Storm Shield, One Pistol, One Melee Weapon

 

blah blah blah

 

This is just a quick on my Phone entry to show what I am talking about.  You can then add whatever keywords you want. As well as lock some Weapons to armor types.

Edited April 11 by CCE1981

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

How would you work Captain abilities? Tacticus Captain currently has the buffed fighting rule but the Phobos Captain can redeploy Phobos units which I quite like. SHould there be a seperate new Captain ability that applies to all armour marks?

[CCE1981]

There should be one for the generic, then one for each mark

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, CCE1981 said:

There should be one for the generic, then one for each mark

As in each Character gets two abilities, one for being that character and one for the armour type? Kind of like what we see with the Chaplains now? They all get Litany of Hate, but then their other ability is armour dependent.

[CCE1981]

Yes

 

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

 

So I didn't see your guys' feedback on the abilities until AFTER i did all this haha oh well, let me know what you think of what we have so far.

[CCE1981]

This is really busy.  Very hard to read and find everything.  Probably just needs to be reorganized but at least all the info is there.

 

One thing to help with readability, put options in a bullet point format instead of sentence format.  It is significantly easier to read.

 

Leadership Abilities should be associated with Armor Mark.  

[ChapterMasterGodfrey]

19 hours ago, CCE1981 said:

bullet point format

The options are in bullet points? Please could you give an example of what you mean 

[CCE1981]

Under ‘Wargear Options’ the last bullet point, those options should be ‘sub options’.

Don’t start with standard wargear.  Start with “ A Captain must take one of the following kits:”

then have Phobos Armor with all its Characteristics, KeyWords, Abilities, and Wargear Abilities etc., then go into Tacitus, Gravis and Terminator.  Keep everything with certain Armor together instead of in three separate places.  Also you have the Wargear Abilities strewn thought a section and some weapons.