The Annual Space Marine Wishlist - Units, Codex Changes, Hopes for the future, etc etc

[jaxom]

Or make the Impulsor a transport for Phobos and Scouts, leave the Rhino and Razorback for proper power armour.

[DemonGSides]

I'd like to get away from transports only being able to take a single type of armor.  Feels... wrong.  Like, sure, phobos armor is slimmer, but it's not THAT much slimmer than Tacticus; I could see preventing transportation for certain armor types, but restricting a transport to ONLY one type of armor is feels bad.

Impulsor can transport up to 8 Tacticus/Phobos/Scouts, can't transport Gravis+, feels fair; by that same token, I also want the Drop Pod to open up and either let me put 3 aggressors in there or at least expand enough to let Tacticus/Phobos+Leader.

[jaxom]

I get that. It popped into my head because the Impulsor most reminds me of the Land Speeder Storm scout transport.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Yeah it's like a step between Rhino and Razorback, and no one wants or needs that.

I don't think it can work as a 10 man transport, it just doesn't physically make sense.  Make it an 8 man (So you can slam a 5 man and a leader or two, or a 6 man BGV+leaders) and it might feel a bit better.

I don’t think cutting the transport capacity will make it better.

 

they gave it just enough firepower available to feel like it should reliably be able to do something, but often it just doesn’t.

maybe the BTs with their MM impulsors see better results.

[DemonGSides]

24 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I don’t think cutting the transport capacity will make it better.

 

they gave it just enough firepower available to feel like it should reliably be able to do something, but often it just doesn’t.

maybe the BTs with their MM impulsors see better results.

 

Cutting what capacity?  It's a 6 man transport right now.  I'm asking to make it bigger so that it's got a use case.

Edited April 19 by DemonGSides

[Malphas]

On 4/18/2024 at 9:57 AM, Orange Knight said:

Over the past few weeks various conversations that I enjoyed crept up into certain topics, but were ultimately curtailed or deleted as they were in the wrong place. 

 

We often discuss units we would like to see GW release, and changes we want to see to the codex in future iterations. Here is my personal take and wish-list on the various changes I want to see, and also how the codex can be cleaned up and streamlined. Feel free to add to and discuss what you agree or disagree with.

 

Units I want to see removed, and why:

 

-Ancient in Terminator Armour: Too Niche, no Dedicated model available that is easily accessible.

-Bladeguard Ancient: Too Niche, surplus to requirement. Rules should be rolled into the regular Ancient via different banner rule selection.

-Tactical Squad: Surplus to requirement, ugly models, wrong scale. Can completely replace with new Intercessor kit or upgrade sprue allowing more options for the Primaris unit.

-Devastator Squad: Surplus to requirement, ugly models, wrong scale.

-Terminator Assault Squad: Ultimately this unit is very cool but offers a minimal variation in terms of function. They are slightly less offensive and slightly more defensive. Would prefer a Hammer and Shield upgrade sprue for the new kit so they can be a wargear options, or for more Chapter specific variants with this loadout to be released.

-Vanguard Veteran Squad: Surplus unit, very similar to Assault Intercessors, ugly models, wrong scale.

-Dreadnought: Wrong scale, inferior to newer Dreadnought kits in terms of model and rules.

-All Rhino Chassis Vehicles: Wrong scale, almost like clown cars on the tabletop. 

 

Units I want to see consolidated, with special rules that can still be reflected, linked to wargear options:

 

-All Phobos Lieutenant variants

-All Gladiator variants

-All Landraider variants

-All Storm Speeder variants

 

If everything I have listed above is removed/consolidated, it would clear out 22 datasheets from the existing codex. This is sorely needed to streamline the book and make the rules easier and more accessible.

The scale disparity between some models is very obvious on the tabletop and can be addressed by removing the older units listed above. The various Gladiator tanks, as an example, have unique rules associated to each type - those rules can still exist, and can be conferred depending on what weapons are selected. The same can apply to the Stormspeeders, Landraiders, etc. 

 

I also want to see some of the options for divergent chapters to be streamlined or removed. The Ultramarines lost some units, and the Dark Angels experienced some cut backs as well. The same can/should happen to the Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

The more iconic units should still be represented. This includes key characters and the most distinctive infantry/vehicles associated with those chapters.

 

Units I want to see updated/added:

 

-Primaris Cato Sicarius

-New Lysander

-Primaris Pedro Kantor

-Primaris Vulkan He'Stan

-Primaris Captain on Bike

-Tacticus unit with Grav/Volkite weapons

-Full Suppressor release

-Outrider upgrade sprue OR new kit with more wargear options

 

At the moment armies like the White Scars struggle to create an effective army that represents their rules and this is due to the lack of models and options for mounted units. A new Captain and an enhanced Outrider kit will solve this. I think the Outrider captain might just be the most glaring omission from the codex at this point. 

 

I would like to see the iconic characters mentioned above to receive new models. I think it's a real shame that the Crimson Fists have been ignored for so long, and how over time the unique aspect of the chapter has almost disappeared.

 

Lysander really needs a new model - the new Terminators tower over him. Cato Sicarius is an iconic meme hero and the star of various novels so should not be ignored either. Ultimately, I actually want GW to create at least one unique  infantry/vehicle unit for each of the chapters that isn't simply a hero, but I know this will probably not happen.

 

On a less contentious note - hopefully we see some Primaris updates to the Blood Angels and Space Wolves in the near future to bring them in line with the new range and scale.

 

 

 

 

REMOVED:

 

Super agree with ancient in Terminator armor.

 

I really like the bladeguard ancient model, you're probably right that it's too niche, tho.

 

Tac squads are dead already, definitely need to be consolidated

 

I was talking about devies with my hobby store buddies yesterday.  There's really no point to them these days either, but you can almost make a squad of them with primaris options, which is kind of fun to think about.

 

I've been a huge fan of Vanguard Vets and Terminator Assault Squads since 4th.  I can't let them go.

 

Classic dreads def need to go, but Impulsors need a closed top variant before you sunset Rhinos.  Open cabin Impulsors are dumb :cuss:.

 

CONSOLIDATED:

 

Everything you said here is on point.  No comment.

 

UPDATED/ADDED:

 

I've never enjoyed having to rely on canon characters in play.  I'd rather see all these guys take a back seat to other command options.  Selfishly, I'd love to see a new Lysander though, since you mention it.  The first founding Sons of Dorn don't get enough love.

 

Hard agree on BA and SW upgrades.  Most notably Sanguinary Guard and a better version of DC.  SW could get away with an upgrade sprue.  They're probably getting the next Loyalist Primarch too, whether or not anyone wants to see Russ return.

 

I want assault terminators and vanguard vets.  It's been downright embarrassing trying to field them alongside primaris boys for 2 whole editions.  The deathwing knights are too good a teaser for them to just ignore assault termies, and the jump cap needs a bodyguard unit, just sayin'.

Edited April 20 by Malphas

[jaxom]

Considering how Sternguard changed from Index to Codex, what would a fully revamped Vanguard squad look like?

[DemonGSides]

Probably fancier Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs and regular backpacks, if they want to let them have a choice, I could see them not giving them a non Jump-pack option.  Sternguard, but assault jumpy boys.  I did like the earlier talk of perhaps an Omni armor variant, but I doubt they would.

[Beta galactosidase]

 

The thing that would always have existed, if the resources and experience had been there in 1988, is an Ultramarine character who is an antagonist.  Every year there are many thousands of games played of loyalist marines fighting loyalist marines.  I think everyone is better off if there is an Ultramarine company captain with some powerful wargear whose company will unquestioningly attack, say, Uriel Ventris or Captain Titus and their companies for being some kind of heretic.  The real world fact of marine vs marine games is unavoidable, and I think GW is setting very low expectations of players by not having a Stibor Lazaerek in the main army list and the main subfaction.

 

On 4/18/2024 at 7:39 PM, ThaneOfTas said:

Tactical Intercessors: Basically just take the old Tactical Squad, Throw in some special, heavy and sergeant weapon options.

 

For boxes I think the most important number is sprues per box, or models pers box, and the classic problem is the many different options for heavy and specials.  Its really good for marine squads to have a heavy gunner and a special gunner in the unit.  What I think is always going to be a limit for GW from 2016 onward is having five different heavy choices and five different special choices but only one of each in the squad.  To me. it makes much more sense for a squad to have a heavy weapon, but with a choice of only one or maximum two different weapons for that weapon.

 

On 4/18/2024 at 7:21 PM, jaxom said:

As to why "I've been against the existence of Vanguard Veteran Squads for a while," it's because I cut my teeth on Marines when they were designed as a combined arms force where, "Their average is better than everyone else's average, but their elites aren't as elite as everyone else's. It's rock-paper-scissors." That philosophy got tossed out the window with the 5th edition codex and I've had a chip on my shoulder about the 'guard squads ever since. I'm very aware of it, hence letting other people know that it influences my desires, because it's not really rational.

 

 

Yes, marines are already elite.  I really welcome the basic assault intercessor being super strong unit, with no room or need for a higher tier.  On one hand, the idea that normal brothers in a normal assault squad are just blocking or distraction units is wrong.  On the other hand, the galaxy is filled with scarier things than even the most elite terminator in a chapter. 

 

This ask-me-anything post on reddit <link> said that there was an instruction from management for the fifth edition codex to launch two new SKUs and thats why sternguard and vanguard were created.  That's not exactly scandalous. What it means is that there wasn't a creative type with his head in the clouds really hoping that there was enough money in the budget to release a melee veteran box thats crucial to the story.  The demands of the story are not crying out for these two tiers of melee veteran.

 

 

 

 

Quote

Heavy Intercessors: Controversial i know, and no chance of actually happening, but this is a wishlist post. I do not like them conceptually. Visually i dislike them less than i did initially, but they should be a heavy support squad with actual heavy bolters, not a battleline squad. I'll actually come back to what I'd Ideally like to see done here later.

 

Long range devastators are the last unit that should ever have heavy weapons, in the in-universe codex.  One of the very few lines that purports to be directly from the codex astartes is unfortunately from Dawn of War II, and it says the role of the tactical squad is to draw fire from devastators so that the devastators can fire freely.  Besides DoW, it's intuitive that for every Kg of gravis armour loaded onto the thunderhawk, there's one fewer Kg of heavy bolter rounds that can be loaded.  Clearly a front line unit that needs protection like aggressors or eradicators has to carry either fewer rounds or lighter rounds than a unit in tacticus armour and carrying heavy bolters.

[MoriyaSchism]

3 hours ago, Beta galactosidase said:

For boxes I think the most important number is sprues per box, or models pers box, and the classic problem is the many different options for heavy and specials.  Its really good for marine squads to have a heavy gunner and a special gunner in the unit.  What I think is always going to be a limit for GW from 2016 onward is having five different heavy choices and five different special choices but only one of each in the squad.  To me. it makes much more sense for a squad to have a heavy weapon, but with a choice of only one or maximum two different weapons for that weapon.

I think the Tactical Squad should have an option to take whatever, it doesn't have to be in the same box. Maybe relegate some of those five heavy weapon and special weapon options to a separate upgrade frame. I believe that the basic Intercessor box should be scrapped entirely and retooled in the same way as they are doing to the Liberators in Age of Sigmar. There is a ton of now wasted space in that box with all the bolt rifle options that are completely irrelevant because of the Bolt Rifle rule consolidation. Space freed up by getting rid of all those spare Bolt rifle receivers could be used to at least include a plasma, melta and two sergeant options in this hypothetical "Tactical Intercessor" box. 

[jaxom]

Oh yeah, a lot of that is true. The new Cadian Shock Trooper squad is a good example of that. Four special weapons on the sprue (like the Cadians) and the unit can take one for every five members (not the Cadians, but if a similar thing was done for recut Intercessors). However, one of the big differences between base-line humans and those in power armour was that Marines have been noted as strong enough to carry around heavy weapons easily. So maybe include pyreblaster, plasma incinerator, meltagun, and whatever the rocket-thing is called? On the other other hand, I do like units with clear weapon range bands and don't miss the days when a Tactical Squad was just a delivery system for a single weapon.

[Malphas]

11 hours ago, jaxom said:

Considering how Sternguard changed from Index to Codex, what would a fully revamped Vanguard squad look like?

 

Basically Bladeguard with jump packs and more weapons options.  Thinking about it more, I'd honestly suggest just consolidating the two units into one.  Just give Bladeguard jump packs and thunder hammers. 

Edited April 20 by Malphas

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Malphas said:

 

Basically Bladeguard with jump packs and more weapons options.  Thinking about it more, I'd honestly suggest just consolidating the two units into one.  Just give Bladeguard jump packs and thunder hammers. 

I really like this idea. It simplifies down the unit to the most popular gear option (storm shield) and lets there be a clear melee veteran aesthetic. Super wishful thinking, but I'd too would love to see them with thunder hammers, and their unit rule improving AP on the charge. It's weird though. I like having generic weapon rules so the modeling options are more open while not having to worry about "the meta" or analysis paralysis. In that regard, I kind of hope they just go with a squad wide choice between one-handed weapon and storm shield option or a two-handed weapon option, and then PW, PF, TH, and pistols for the Sergeant. 

 

Oh man, what if this is why they took the eviscerator out of the Assault Squad update? Sternguard get two basic weapon options for each regular squad member and two heavy weapon Marine options for the specialist squad member. So what if Vanguard get a choice between chain- or power-heirloom weapon for each regular squad member Marine and choice between eviscerator and heavy thunder hammer for the specialist?

[Orange Knight]

I have decided to write about some more units I would like to see, this time themed around the divergent Chapters.

 

I'm aware the Dark Angels recently got a release, but I think their updated range needs a few more additions.

 

Dark Angel units to add:

 

-Primaris Sammael on jetbike

-Ravenwing Outriders

 

I would keep the Dark Talon/Nephilim, but move on the other units to Legends.

 

Space Wolf units to add:

 

-Logan Grimnar in Gravis Armour: Hear me out. The more recent Gravis kits look really good. I would love to see a Gravis character with a beard and Axe. I think this would make the updated more unique and interesting! 

-Updated Njal the Stormcaller

-Grey Hunter upgrade sprue for Intercessors 

-Blood Claw upgrade sprue for Assault Intercessors 

-Updated Wolf Guard Terminator 

 

I would keep the Wulfen and the Stormwolf/Stormfang. I think the rest should be moved on to Legends.

 

Blood Angel units to add:

 

-Primaris Astorath the Grim

-Primaris Sanguinary Priest/Corbulo

-Primaris Sanguinary Guard

-Primaris Death Company

-Updated Sanguinor: I want them to really give this unit a glow up. He can be an Avatar of Sangunius on the tabletop - a statline similar to the Lion/Guilliman but with more mobility and less aura related abilities.

 

The rest of the units can be moved on to Legends.

 

 

In response to some other comments in this topic relating to Vanguard Veterans. I think Games Workshop really want to limit units that can cover too many bases. Over the last several editions the best units have always been high damage, high mobility. We've seem the way they reduced the efficacy of things like the Smash Captain. I imagine they want the more mobile infantry to have less choice in optimum targets. The Jump Assault Intercessors aren't too dissimilar from how the Vanguard operate now. I still think certain chapters need to have bespoke options - things like the Sanguinary Guard that should be more in line with Bladeguard, but with the added mobility.

 

On the topic of Space Wolves, what is the consensus on things like Thunderwolves? I know some people like them, but some hate them and think they are a bit too silly. I'm hoping that GW can tone the wolfiness down a bit when they get to updating the Space Wolves, personally. That being sad, units like the Blood Claws are very cool.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/19/2024 at 2:35 PM, DemonGSides said:

 

Cutting what capacity?  It's a 6 man transport right now.  I'm asking to make it bigger so that it's got a use case.

Is it? I thought it was 10. I haven’t even looked at the datasheet in years.

[jaxom]

3 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

-Logan Grimnar in Gravis Armour: Hear me out. The more recent Gravis kits look really good. I would love to see a Gravis character with a beard and Axe. I think this would make the updated more unique and interesting! 

-Updated Njal the Stormcaller

I'd love to see Grimnar in updated terminator armour; it's just such a part of his legend. I would like see Njal be the one in Gravis. It would also give the Wolves something a little special.

[Nephaston]

21 hours ago, Beta galactosidase said:

Yes, marines are already elite.  I really welcome the basic assault intercessor being super strong unit, with no room or need for a higher tier.

Hmm,  heavy assault intercessors with eviscerators and maybe a jump pack option in the kit since it would be a 5-man option already.

 

12 hours ago, Malphas said:

Basically Bladeguard with jump packs and more weapons options.  Thinking about it more, I'd honestly suggest just consolidating the two units into one.  Just give Bladeguard jump packs and thunder hammers. 

Or as a phobos squad so they can vanguard while they vanguard. And maybe absorb reivers like sternguard did with the old veteran intercessor sheet in a way.

[DemonGSides]

7 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Is it? I thought it was 10. I haven’t even looked at the datasheet in years.

Yeah it suffers right now to only allowing 5 man + a leader right now, but that's not really super great for something like bladeguard, where it might have some use with it's weapons softening a target, while either screening for some bladeguard for a turn, or being the staging platform for them+judiciar or captain or whatever.  It's a bummer.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 4/20/2024 at 11:46 PM, DemonGSides said:

Yeah it suffers right now to only allowing 5 man + a leader right now, but that's not really super great for something like bladeguard, where it might have some use with it's weapons softening a target, while either screening for some bladeguard for a turn, or being the staging platform for them+judiciar or captain or whatever.  It's a bummer.

 

 

Yeah that makes it an absolutely trash vehicle.

its worse as a transport than a rhino, and a worse gun truck than a razorback.

 

 

[Orange Knight]

35 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Yeah that makes it an absolutely trash vehicle.

its worse as a transport than a rhino, and a worse gun truck than a razorback.

 

 

 

No, it's far better. It just doesn't work the way some people want it to.

 

It's fantastic for transporting a unit of Hellblasters and a character, for example. And they can all shoot whilst riding inside.

 

Less useful for a close combat unit that wants to include a character, but it still fits 6 Bladeguard.

 

[Marshal Reinhard]

On 4/21/2024 at 5:29 AM, Nephaston said:

Hmm,  heavy assault intercessors with eviscerators and maybe a jump pack option in the kit since it would be a 5-man option already.

Yes please.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

No, it's far better. It just doesn't work the way some people want it to.

 

It's fantastic for transporting a unit of Hellblasters and a character, for example. And they can all shoot whilst riding inside.

 

Less useful for a close combat unit that wants to include a character, but it still fits 6 Bladeguard.

 

 

I just don't think that "It's good for a single use case" to be a compelling argument for something that sits in the Transport category, especially in an army that's very much about swiss-army knife style force application.

It's not as bad as a Drop Pod, but it's really currently just a one use type of transport, and that's just MEH to me; Drop Pod really only great right now for dropping Infernus Marines, because they don't take a leader well and every other squad that might want to take a Drop Pod either doesn't fit in it (Gravis armor Eradicators) or REALLY want a leader (Hellblasters) and it can't accomodate.  Impulsor really only "good" (And I think that's stretching it) when ferrying a Hellblaster Half Squad is just kinda *Shrug* to me.  Not something I'm running out to pick up a kit for on either side: neither strong or interesting enough to play, nor cool enough to not care if it's datasheet is kinda ass.

Small things like that that are easily rectified with a little more love and care applied to the datasheets.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Less useful for a close combat unit that wants to include a character

Yeah, at this point it feels like a conscious decision that Marines don't have a good transport for that sort of thing unless one is willing to invest in a Land Raider.

[Orange Knight]

43 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I just don't think that "It's good for a single use case" to be a compelling argument for something that sits in the Transport category, especially in an army that's very much about swiss-army knife style force application.

It's not as bad as a Drop Pod, but it's really currently just a one use type of transport, and that's just MEH to me; Drop Pod really only great right now for dropping Infernus Marines, because they don't take a leader well and every other squad that might want to take a Drop Pod either doesn't fit in it (Gravis armor Eradicators) or REALLY want a leader (Hellblasters) and it can't accomodate.  Impulsor really only "good" (And I think that's stretching it) when ferrying a Hellblaster Half Squad is just kinda *Shrug* to me.  Not something I'm running out to pick up a kit for on either side: neither strong or interesting enough to play, nor cool enough to not care if it's datasheet is kinda ass.

Small things like that that are easily rectified with a little more love and care applied to the datasheets.

 

It's not a single use case. It's good with Sternguard, Infernus marines, Intercessors, etc.

 

It just isn't the cheap assault vehicle people want it to be and they can't get over that fact.

 

It's hands down better than the Rhino AND the Razorback.

[Marshal Reinhard]

49 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Yeah, at this point it feels like a conscious decision that Marines don't have a good transport for that sort of thing unless one is willing to invest in a Land Raider.

Something I'd be willing to consider if we had a modern kit... at some point ill probably just get a heresy one