2024 Pricing Update

[Marshal Rohr]

23 minutes ago, Kastor Krieg said:

The worst, really? You'd prefer $60 of those guys in precious Finecast than hundreds of hours of great fun in Baldur's Gate 3?

 

Or maybe $60 of Ceramite White pots instead of Jagged Alliance 3? Three Citadel Spray guns instead of Alan Wake 2? $60 of 500%+ up-marked Kneadatite rebranded as "GW Green Stuff" instead of current state CP 2077?

Are you well?!

Yes. Except cyberpunk. 

[lansalt]

25 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

It often seems to me that the IP has massively overtaken the miniature/wargaming side of things and now it is all about brand exploitation.

It's easy to think that given how much we're exposed to it online. But GW's public financial reports make it very clear that miniatures are still their biggest product by orders of magnitude.

Licensing, Black Library and WH+ are a very small fraction of what they earn with their plastic crack.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Schurge said:

 

That is way too true, for me. And I've been holding off on making a thread the last couple of months speculating why that is. This game was never that fun. Something about it captures the imagination though.

 

It is a testament to the strength of the universe for sure. Reminds me of WoW during Blizzard's darkest times, and people still refused to let go. That feeling of attachment is a powerful thing.

[Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Some European proce lists going round on Dakka, looks like vehicles, Marines and mostly old world are the ones above 5% increase.

 

I am surprised how many vehicles are gating 9-10% increase, considering that GW already prices them as if they were a premium quality plastic kits and way above. The 10% rise on skellies from the 90's is funny though.

Edited May 8 by Ayatollah_of_Rock_n_Rolla

[Schurge]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

It is a testament to the strength of the universe for sure. Reminds me of WoW during Blizzard's darkest times, and people still refused to let go. That feeling of attachment is a powerful thing.

 

The WoW effect has been well observed and commented on. You make me wonder if my first miniatures game had been something else it would be easier to let go. I live in a tent in an intentional community / commune. Most of what I own is in my truck. I rarely use the internet these days, and when I do its to check my email, War Com, and this site. Its funny. I've let go of almost everything I own. All my old hobbies and addictions. I use a flip phone and crap in the woods. The way I live is so far removed from the vast majority of Warhammer fans.

 

When I am stressed, or otherwise out of the present, I think about getting back into the hobby. I'd be starting from scratch aside from some very gnarly citadel paints that have just lasted two winters freezing and unfreezing in the back of my truck. (I've got a few low model count none-GW game starters I play with the kids in my community.)

 

"Three GK starters and a Crowe and I would be sitting pretty," I says to myself. Who the heck am I going to play with? Its been years since I've touched the Warhammer hobby, let alone had a life it could reasonably fit into. There is something about warrior monks in space.

Edited May 9 by Schurge

[templargdt]

Part of the frustration is that prices have sky rocketed and quality really hasn't much improved.  I really loved the flexibility of the firstborn kits (tactical, assault, devs, Vanguard, etc.) and the customizable nature of it all.   Now we're all building the same 5 models.  Oh you want a different pose?  Good luck. 

 

Does anyone think you're getting double the value of an intercessor kit compared to when a tactical squad box was 30 dollars?  5 jump intercessors, i.e. the exact same thing as assault marines, are 60 dollars?  For what?  

 

Codexes used to be 20 dollars.  Oddly that's probably the area where things have improved the most (full color, hardback, etc.)

[Ahzek451]

45 minutes ago, templargdt said:

Part of the frustration is that prices have sky rocketed and quality really hasn't much improved.  I really loved the flexibility of the firstborn kits (tactical, assault, devs, Vanguard, etc.) and the customizable nature of it all.   Now we're all building the same 5 models.  Oh you want a different pose?  Good luck. 

 

Does anyone think you're getting double the value of an intercessor kit compared to when a tactical squad box was 30 dollars?  5 jump intercessors, i.e. the exact same thing as assault marines, are 60 dollars?  For what?  

 

Codexes used to be 20 dollars.  Oddly that's probably the area where things have improved the most (full color, hardback, etc.)

Moreso than this, i feel like the quality in lore has severely diminished. ImHO Everything post rift is frankly somewhat forgettable, particularly the return of the primarchs, daemon or otherwise. What should have been more monumentous is just....meh. 

 

I'm jaded to the game itself. Of course there have been improvements overall, but over the span of 10 editions, nothing is really different post 3rd. Any "improvement" a new edition claims to do is like adding fuzzy dice to a rust bucket(8th was really nice fuzzy dice). The rust bucket remains i.e. GW's refusal to move on from a codex/edition model that constantly yields the same problems edition after edition, run by a game design dept that is understaffed, underfunded, and poorly organized.....it's just the same crappy frame holding up this game all these years with no real innovation. It's gotten old.

 

All the above coupled with their recent actions on social media, and prices, everyone in my anactodal world is either severely winding down or jumping ship completely. 

[Xenith]

14 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

Funny enough, and I shared one example earlier in the thread - been getting emails from proxy makers today announcing discounts, one specifically worded to match the recent WarCom post.

 

Times are tough, now here's a sale! Much better message than - Times are tough, so buckle up buttercup because you are going to pay for this one too!

 

Great that they're having a sale etc, but personally that would annoy me - prices are going up, but they can reduce theirs? Just how badly have they been ripping me off in the past? It's like Dominoes permanently reducing their pizza prices - they could have done this any time, but chose to make excess profit for decades.

 

The 15% sale they can have brings their prices back to normal profit margins, and you've once again been overpaying. 

 

I know some will chime in that overall you're paying less, which is true, but one has to view things in objective percentages to make a comparison. Printers and those recreating GW IP have lower overheads and sunk costs, therefore can charge less. It's just a fact.

5 hours ago, Ahzek451 said:

Everything post rift is frankly somewhat forgettable, particularly the return of the primarchs, daemon or otherwise.

 

Drifting OT from price increases, but I agree with this, I think it's volume of material though. Back in 3rd, abaddon launching a crusade was a massive, once in a decade event. Now we get lion and angron popping up in the same year?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd hold my disdain for the company putting their prices up over one putting their prices down...

[Interrogator Stobz]

Remember all price increases just go straight to shareholders. 

They're making record profits, they're not "struggling" to meet costs. Profits are after costs.

 

Also: 100% agree on the OT point about too many changes too quickly. 

Edited May 9 by Interrogator Stobz

[lhg033]

The price rises are not unexpected. Doesn't mean I am not a fan or that I feel that for what the hobby is some of the costs are getting a bit ridiculous. This is no longer anywhere close to being a casual interest hobby. There is nothing really I would consider as 'pocket money prices' that I feel I could casual spend. Nearly everything is a big decision on cost vs value.

 

As a parent, even in the hobby community myself, the £100+ for "codex and combat patrol entry point" is more than I would consider as a casual interest. My kids exposure to the hobby has mainly been through 'spares' of my stuff and the odd other model or a getting started level box. Even they, without and prompting, look at the cost of the hobby and take the view there are other things they would prefer to have for that price.

On a personal level I am already planning a fairly frugal year - I have my DW assault box and a pile of shame to keep me going too. I will probably only be buying paints and possibly the odd one off smaller purchase/keeping an eye out for conquest magazine when it starts properly to snag a few specific issues, possibly multiples of a few.

I am probably more invested in the hobby now than I have been for a long time but I am not going to be spending much on it. Family stuff takes priority and always will.

If anything I am (still, it has yet to actually start in earnest) planning to have a bit of a purge of things and selling off a load of stuff. 

 

 

 

 

[Joe]

22 minutes ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

Remember all price increases just go straight to shareholders. 

They're making record profits, they're not "struggling" to meet costs. Profits are after costs.

 

Also: 100% agree on the OT point about too many changes too quickly. 

 

The shareholder thing is, to my recollection, factually inaccurate going by the annual reports; they haven't increased what they pay to shareholders year-on-year by any substantial amount, however they have increased investment in staffing (wages included), the profit sharing scheme, investments into warehousing, distraction, etc. That's before you factor in other costs. It's probably worth investigating this further when the 23/24 Annual Year is posted.

 

Games Workshop are an oddity in that they don't really have any loans or debt, so whilst they make be making a profit they tend to look at that profit as a hard buffer between themselves and rough waters.

[sarabando]

my hobby purchases have shrunk massivly, i only generally buy the big battle forces and then work on them over the year. 

My local FLGS has stopped taking cash so i dont shop there any more, and my purchases via the forbidden word and 3d printing services are increasing. 

Nearly all the comments on my videos are people who feel the same which is biased i know but the numbers of disenfranchised people is growing. 

 

Also remember GW staff get a 50% discount, they will still be making more than enough profit off those sales. Nothing would stop GW from a straight up 50% price slash except the shareholders, who it is clear are the ones who we should direct our ire towards. 

[Xenith]

19 hours ago, Captain Idaho said:

 

Yeah but prices have gone up higher.

 

As Tyriks says, not all. The first unit that came to mind, Intercessors were what, £35 on release in 2016, they're now £37.50, a 7.5% increase when, as you showed, overall average prices have gone up by 30% in that time.

 

Again, just one random example that doesn't prove a trend, however GW's price increases have paled in comparison to other % increases. It doesn't excuse their increases, but we need some perspective. 

 

Edited May 9 by Xenith

[Interrogator Stobz]

21 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

The shareholder thing is, to my recollection, factually inaccurate going by the annual reports; they haven't increased what they pay to shareholders year-on-year by any substantial amount, however they have increased investment in staffing (wages included), the profit sharing scheme, investments into warehousing, distraction, etc. That's before you factor in other costs. It's probably worth investigating this further when the 23/24 Annual Year is posted.

 

Games Workshop are an oddity in that they don't really have any loans or debt, so whilst they make be making a profit they tend to look at that profit as a hard buffer between themselves and rough waters.

Good to know, thanks

[Xenith]

1 hour ago, Captain Idaho said:

I'd hold my disdain for the company putting their prices up over one putting their prices down...

 

Why can't we dislike both companies that rip people off? In a month's time when the sale ends and they put their prices back up by 15%, will you be complaining about them to the same extent?

Edited May 9 by Xenith

[LameBeard]

On 5/7/2024 at 1:18 PM, phandaal said:

On the plastic side, other companies already sell boxes of high quality miniatures for a fraction of the GW price.

 

Got any suggestions in this vein? Asking for a friend …

[Redcomet]

14 hours ago, twopounder said:

Their market cap went from millions to billions and they say they are hurting so bad that they need to increase prices. Funny that the average video game went down in price from $70 to $40 and the AAA market only saw one price increase in 30 years of $10.

You forgot the huge influx of DLC, live service games and micro transactions. The video game industry found other ways of taking your money. And that industry has been engaged in massive layoffs that will affect the quality of product going forward.

14 hours ago, twopounder said:

Their market cap went from millions to billions and they say they are hurting so bad that they need to increase prices. Funny that the average video game went down in price from $70 to $40 and the AAA market only saw one price increase in 30 years of $10.

You forgot the huge influx of DLC, live service games and micro transactions. The video game industry found other ways of taking your money. And that industry has been engaged in massive layoffs that will affect the quality of product going forward.

[CL_Mission]

The comments about GW miniatures vs video games as well as @Special Officer Doofy's earlier comment about value and enjoyment helped me think about why I don't see these price hikes really effecting my spending plans with GW even though they obliviously suck and we'd all be happier without them.

For me painting and modeling makes up probably 98% of my enjoyment with the hobby, I do play the tabletop and enjoy it make it's very far from being my focus, not by a long shot. What's really important though is that enjoyment from painting is pretty much guaranteed, as long as the sprues are in the box and don't burst into flames when I pull them out then I'm pretty much certain to have many, many hours of enjoyment with my purchase. With video games and also movies that guarantee sadly isn't there and I've been burned before paying top dollar for a game and getting very little enjoyment out of it.

I still buy and like video games and go to the cinema (though that is very much reduced) but if I've got money in my pocket buying Warhammer is still the safest bet for enjoyment and getting the most hours of it (I don't think it's healthy to make £s to hours enjoyed the most important metric, there are some excellent short games out there but I hope you get my point)

All that said it's the sets themselves that are important not buying them from GW and like @TheArtilleryman I'm always looking on ebay for my next purchase first then independent stockists next. Not above impulse buying when I walk into a GW for paint or whatever though.

 

[crimsondave]

39 minutes ago, Joe said:

 

The shareholder thing is, to my recollection, factually inaccurate going by the annual reports; they haven't increased what they pay to shareholders year-on-year by any substantial amount, however they have increased investment in staffing (wages included), the profit sharing scheme, investments into warehousing, distraction, etc. That's before you factor in other costs. It's probably worth investigating this further when the 23/24 Annual Year is posted.

 

Games Workshop are an oddity in that they don't really have any loans or debt, so whilst they make be making a profit they tend to look at that profit as a hard buffer between themselves and rough waters.

That’s just not true.  GW is paying  5.8% dividend annual return to stock holders this year.  So net profit margin is an astounding 28.85% and their annual dividend has, on average, doubled since 2021.  That’s after all costs.

 

https://www.dividendmax.com/united-kingdom/london-stock-exchange/leisure-goods/games-workshop-group-plc/dividends

[Valkyrion]

GW prices are difficult to quantify across the range. For example, Intercessors might only have gone up a couple of quid in the last 7 years, but Heavy Intercessors were £39.50 when they came out, and 5 flayed ones were £30 when Immortals were only £25. 

GW have done this in the past - over inflated the price of a new product to then leave other prices static - there was a bit of a furore when the 'new' witch elves came out at £30 for a  box of 10.  

 

I understand that we can only compare like for like, but I don't think it's as simple or black and white as saying Unit X is below inflation and Unit Y is above it. 

[Karhedron]

49 minutes ago, Joe said:

Games Workshop are an oddity in that they don't really have any loans or debt, so whilst they make be making a profit they tend to look at that profit as a hard buffer between themselves and rough waters.

 

Another thing about GW is that they don't offshore any of their money. They take it as a point of pride to pay their fair share of taxes. I would rather see a lot of other big corporations do the same to be honest.

[Domhnall]

I was at a wargames show here in Scotland on Saturday there, and generally there's no warhammer going on apart from some stalls selling stuff, the majority is historical games of various types. I don't think it's just the warhammer hobby that's in trouble I think they all are* because previous years you were squeezing past sweaty beardy types the whole time to get anywhere... this year you could mostly walk about with your arms out and not touch anybody. There will be many reasons for this, but one of the reasons will be that everything was expensive there, and people are feeling the pinch and cutting down on any unneccesary expense. All the games systems were expensive for what they were. Yes, GW stuff is more expensive, but I was surprised that it wasn't as much difference as I had previously thought. 

It's not so much the price increases themselves that are the problem, as every product goes up by a percentage because inflation goes up and everything that you buy to make the product goes up, it's the fact that our spending power has decreased against those rises due to wages not keeping up, so the price rises are felt harder because of that. If a squad costs £40, and I've got £40 to spend then that's fine, if that price goes up to £45, but my wage only increases to allow me to spend £42... that's a problem... not to mention the pyschological effect of it just being a bigger number! 
When I started, a tactical was about £15 or some such, which I was less able to afford (being a teenager), but I bought far more than I do now. It's difficult to justify £45 a lot of the time because I don't game, just paint. 

 

* - Speaking to my friend who is part of a gaming club that only plays historicals even they have a drop in members over the years, usually as the older guys disappear with no newer younger members taking their place. 

[Xenith]

4 hours ago, crimsondave said:

That’s just not true.  GW is paying  5.8% dividend annual return to stock holders this year.  So net profit margin is an astounding 28.85% and their annual dividend has, on average, doubled since 2021.  That’s after all costs.

 

https://www.dividendmax.com/united-kingdom/london-stock-exchange/leisure-goods/games-workshop-group-plc/dividends

 

You're conflating % and total amount. GW's % dividend hasn't increased by much (and has in fact gone down from 2016 where it was over 8%), however as their total income increases, the smaller % dividend becomes a larger number (e.g. 3% of 1000 is more than 10% of 100). So, while the total amount paid to shareholder has increased, the actual % of income has decreased, meaning they're funelling much more money into other stuff, like staff development. Stating their dividend has doubled since 2021 is also a false comparison, as they drastically cut their dividend during covid to 1.5%. In fact, pre-covid, GW was actively slashing their dividend, year on year (however, again, as their total income increased, the total amount to shareholders was higher), and their dividend % is similar to 2018 levels. 

----------------------------------

I know my comments seem to be defending a company (and anyone that knows me well will know that's not what I'm about), but it's probably from more grim acceptance of the fact that prices go up and it's part of the world, and there's little we can do about it, and I was (futilely) trying to convince people that GW is just another company, doing what companies do (again, probably futilly). I applaud those that still have the energy and gusto to shocked pikachu face and get very worked up and about things like this year after year. The 15% discount is nice and all, and I encourage people to take advantage, however another part of me thinks it's hypocritical to berate one company for increasing their prices by 3% to maintain their profit margin, and not berating the other company for actually showing you that they could actually permanently drop prices by 15% at the flick of a switch and still make a profit, but choose not to, as they also love money. Are people really simping over another for profit entity for throwing them some scraps? 

 

I guess my main sentiment is: Yes, it's crap, no one wants to see it, they're a company doing company things in a background of rising costs of everything:. Overall a 3% increase is below (UK) inflation, and it could always be much worse.

 

I'm not going to comment more in here and put effort into hobby stuff, but as with other mods will monitor for off topic, so keep things in line and on topic 

Edited May 9 by Xenith

[crimsondave]

36 minutes ago, Xenith said:

 

You're conflating % and total amount. GW's % dividend hasn't increased by much (and has in fact gone down from 2016 where it was over 8%), however as their total income increases, the smaller % dividend becomes a larger number (e.g. 3% of 1000 is more than 10% of 100). So, while the total amount paid to shareholder has increased, the actual % of income has decreased, meaning they're funelling much more money into other stuff, like staff development. Stating their dividend has doubled since 2021 is also a false comparison, as they drastically cut their dividend during covid to 1.5%. In fact, pre-covid, GW was actively slashing their dividend, year on year (however, again, as their total income increased, the total amount to shareholders was higher), and their dividend % is similar to 2018 levels. 

----------------------------------

I know my comments seem to be defending a company (and anyone that knows me well will know that's not what I'm about), but it's probably from more grim acceptance of the fact that prices go up and it's part of the world, and there's little we can do about it, and I was (futilely) trying to convince people that GW is just another company, doing what companies do (again, probably futilly). I applaud those that still have the energy and gusto to shocked pikachu face and get very worked up and about things like this year after year. 

 

I guess my main sentiment is: Yes, it's crap, no one wants to see it, they're a company doing company things in a background of rising costs of everything:. Overall a 3% increase is below (UK) inflation, and it could always be much worse.

 

I'm not going to comment more in here and put effort into hobby stuff, but as with other mods will monitor for off topic, so keep things in line and on topic 

I’m not conflating anything.  I didn’t say the percentage doubled.  The amount per share doubled.  The price of stock from the low in 2016 puts GW stock up 1,714 PERCENT since then.  I don't think that's exactly an apple to apple comparison.

 

You are “not defending” GW yet seem to be making excuses for them while attacking a competitor for lowering prices.  That’s odd.

Edited May 9 by crimsondave