Kasrkin and scions

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

To me the Kasrkin feel a bit underwhelming. I haven’t proxied them as scions yet but I imagine they’d feel similar as well.

 

changes that I think could or should be made.

 

scions should get either a 5++ or a 6+++ to make them a bit more survivable than they currently are.

 

kasrkin, I feel should be able to be built out as a unit of specialists. So 3-4 special weapons, maybe even doubling up on a single type as an option.

recon option drops the scout move for infiltrate, and a single special weapon, and up 3 marksmen.

storm trooper/assault troopers option all pistols and power weapons, WS3+ sgt getting the option of plasma, bolt, hotshot pistols or handflamer.

[Kleomenes]

Scions do insane damage right now. They are only marginally tougher than regular humans but that seems appropriate. They can get a 6+++ from a medic in a command squad. What would be the lore reason for a 5+ invul?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Kleomenes said:

Scions do insane damage right now. They are only marginally tougher than regular humans but that seems appropriate. They can get a 6+++ from a medic in a command squad. What would be the lore reason for a 5+ invul?

Doesn’t really need a lore reason, fluff and crunch are completely unrelated.

 

lasguns in lore are actually pretty damn strong, but on table top they only have a 50-50 chance of actual wounding a baseline human.

[sairence]

Scions are great amazing currently Between the giant bomb with a psyker coming out of a Taurox or nasty  hammers/secondary scorers out of deepstrike, they have great second strike utility. I always have at least a 5 man squad, and many lists will include big damage dealers.

 

Kasrkin on the other hand aren't as damaging, but between their scout move and their order shenangins, they are amazing skirmishers with utility like nothing else. I still bring min 2 units every game because they can simply do so much for mobility and scoring, even after their points hike. The damage is often just an added bonus.

 

Like...personally, I don't think either of them needs changes. I'd like Kasrkin to drop 10p again, the 20p hike was a bit harsh. But other than that...genuinely two of the best datasheets in the index atm. 

 

As for loadout changes...doubt they'll make changes to the existing kits, so they are what they are.

 

[DemonGSides]

Yeah I rather like both sheets right now, tho I don't have enough Scions to make use of them effectively currently.

 

Two units of Kas are almost guaranteed in every list I brew. Reinforcements on them feels so good and they do solid damage while being super flexible.

[Emperor Ming]

On 6/11/2024 at 1:22 AM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

To me the Kasrkin feel a bit underwhelming.

Same, I wouldn't consider kasrkin atm, 

 

The value of plasma and melta has diminished in the new edition with the toughness hikes. 

 

They would have to get a decent pts drop to interest me. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Same, I wouldn't consider kasrkin atm, 

 

The value of plasma and melta has diminished in the new edition with the toughness hikes. 

 

They would have to get a decent pts drop to interest me. 

I think if they could spam special weapons a bit more, it wouldn’t be bad. 3 meltas are likely to do something decent to medium and heavy armor.

 

also for being such elite soldiers it feels wrong for them to have the same likelihood of hitting as standard guardsmen. Heck arguable that Catachans as a whole are better in melee than their super elite comrades.

Edited June 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

8 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

Same, I wouldn't consider kasrkin atm, 

 

The value of plasma and melta has diminished in the new edition with the toughness hikes. 

 

They would have to get a decent pts drop to interest me. 

 

They were super meta, basically being a required 3 of, for most of the first year in 10th.

Melta is still insanely good (Ap-4 is like, *chefs kiss* especially against big boys like Custodes, a former meta boogeyman before their recent codex), I will agree Plasma sucks, but they have rapid fire plasma so it's still pretty good if you can get them FRFSRF.

They got a points increase recently and people still like em enough to run em, though they've fallen off in favor of action monkeys in 5 man scions and Rough Riders.  I think a 10 point drop would be a sweeter spot, for sure, as mentioned above, but I do think they are Quite Fine for their points cost.

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I think if they could spam special weapons a bit more, it wouldn’t be bad. 3 meltas are likely to do something decent to medium and heavy armor.

 

also for being such elite soldiers it feels wrong for them to have the same likelihood of hitting as standard guardsmen. Heck arguable that Catachans as a whole are better in melee than their super elite comrades.

They can get 4 special weapons, a special mine that does 2d3 almost guaranteed damage to something they can probably run up into, as well as a sgt with a specialist pistol, AND they can take a sniper rifle on top.  So 7 out of 10 guys in the squad have some sort of extra damage; Devastators don't even get to claim that many bodies in a squad.  Any more and they'd just be a heavy weapons squad.

 

They shoot better than a guardsman, and you really aren't supposed to be putting any regular human infantry into melee combat.   And Kas are pulling twice as many attacks as Cat, as well as getting a Sgt weapon (Powersword in the Kas situation).

Not even really comparable.  I'd rather have twice as many shots at S3 than S4; it slightly helps in melee against SM level armor at S4, and I will admit -1 AP is nice, I think it, at best, washes with the Kas, but I'm pretty sure that -1AP is not equal to +1 Attack.  Either way, whatever is hitting either unit back in melee is most likely going to eat them for breakfast lunch and dinner, so it's not great either way.

Edited June 12 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They were super meta, basically being a required 3 of, for most of the first year in 10th.

Melta is still insanely good (Ap-4 is like, *chefs kiss* especially against big boys like Custodes, a former meta boogeyman before their recent codex), I will agree Plasma sucks, but they have rapid fire plasma so it's still pretty good if you can get them FRFSRF.

They got a points increase recently and people still like em enough to run em, though they've fallen off in favor of action monkeys in 5 man scions and Rough Riders.  I think a 10 point drop would be a sweeter spot, for sure, as mentioned above, but I do think they are Quite Fine for their points cost.

They can get 4 special weapons, a special mine that does 2d3 almost guaranteed damage to something they can probably run up into, as well as a sgt with a specialist pistol, AND they can take a sniper rifle on top.  So 7 out of 10 guys in the squad have some sort of extra damage; Devastators don't even get to claim that many bodies in a squad.  Any more and they'd just be a heavy weapons squad.

 

They shoot better than a guardsman, and you really aren't supposed to be putting any regular human infantry into melee combat.   And Kas are pulling twice as many attacks as Cat, as well as getting a Sgt weapon (Powersword in the Kas situation).

Not even really comparable.  I'd rather have twice as many shots at S3 than S4; it slightly helps in melee against SM level armor at S4, and I will admit -1 AP is nice, I think it, at best, washes with the Kas, but I'm pretty sure that -1AP is not equal to +1 Attack.  Either way, whatever is hitting either unit back in melee is most likely going to eat them for breakfast lunch and dinner, so it's not great either way.

I forget about that since I only have one of the old metal squads.

yeah maybe mine would be doing more work with double the special weapons.

[sairence]

I think all I can really add to this is that if you're using Kasrkin primarily as damage dealers, you're not using them to their fullest potential.

[brother_b]

On 6/13/2024 at 5:14 AM, sairence said:

I think all I can really add to this is that if you're using Kasrkin primarily as damage dealers, you're not using them to their fullest potential.

Can you explain this please? I am slowly building a guard force and was considering a box or kasrkin.

[Dr. Clock]

46 minutes ago, brother_b said:

explain this please?

They're primarily a rapid skirmisher IMO - their output is reasonable, but perhaps no longer quite efficient at 120. At 100 they were undercosted for sure tho - especially when orders got changed out of transports/reserves. I like 1 unit in chimera and another camping in DZ just plugging away from the top of a ruin, but these days the infantry squad is just becoming 2x5 Scions mostly because I get more board coverage out of that, and a similar amount of damage.

 

So basically - IMO Kasrkin are built for early scoring challenges... their damage potential can help with that but primarily it's the Scouts that define their role to me at this point.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

They're primarily a rapid skirmisher IMO - their output is reasonable, but perhaps no longer quite efficient at 120. At 100 they were undercosted for sure tho - especially when orders got changed out of transports/reserves. I like 1 unit in chimera and another camping in DZ just plugging away from the top of a ruin, but these days the infantry squad is just becoming 2x5 Scions mostly because I get more board coverage out of that, and a similar amount of damage.

 

So basically - IMO Kasrkin are built for early scoring challenges... their damage potential can help with that but primarily it's the Scouts that define their role to me at this point.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

That’s how I use them, but if they can’t output enough damage to effectively blunt an enemy attack, then they’re just kinda screwed. They’re not much more durable than normal guard so to me damage output for guard is generally a defensive measure.

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

if they can’t output enough damage to effectively blunt an enemy attack

Indeed - they will never blunt an entire attack on their own - very little in the list shy of maybe a Dorn can do that - but they can tie up more units and points than many opponents will be comfortable with and are built to punch up, just not too far up. Definitely more of a cagey unit than pure DPS, which Guard don't really have, aside from maybe the Manticore or Demolisher? It's really hard to tell whether to value things before or after Orders are applied, but it does make sense to charge a premium on the unit that can give itself Orders.

 

You can/could make Kasrkin a more aggro choice by chucking a Primaris in there - Psychic Maelstrom hitting on 2s can mess stuff up, and you might even survive the clap back with the 4++. The Primaris just BARELY gets left out of my 2k combined arms list but when I finally get enough transports for a proper mounted assault list (probably like 2 more chimeras at least plus a couple hellhounds), I'd hope to squeeze one in so that I can actually wipe an objective from time to time instead of just grinding them out with Catachans.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

Indeed - they will never blunt an entire attack on their own - very little in the list shy of maybe a Dorn can do that - but they can tie up more units and points than many opponents will be comfortable with and are built to punch up, just not too far up. Definitely more of a cagey unit than pure DPS, which Guard don't really have, aside from maybe the Manticore or Demolisher? It's really hard to tell whether to value things before or after Orders are applied, but it does make sense to charge a premium on the unit that can give itself Orders.

 

You can/could make Kasrkin a more aggro choice by chucking a Primaris in there - Psychic Maelstrom hitting on 2s can mess stuff up, and you might even survive the clap back with the 4++. The Primaris just BARELY gets left out of my 2k combined arms list but when I finally get enough transports for a proper mounted assault list (probably like 2 more chimeras at least plus a couple hellhounds), I'd hope to squeeze one in so that I can actually wipe an objective from time to time instead of just grinding them out with Catachans.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Not a whole army’s attack, just the attack of the unit most likely to shoot and possibly charge them.

 

a Kasrkin squad should be capable blunting an attack from an intercessor squad at the very least, but they really seem to struggle with that(but that might be because I’m using mine WYSIWYG and again they’re the old metal models with only two special weapons)

[DemonGSides]

I use mine for walking on and then just constant reinforcement churn. IDC that they're just human bodies, I actively want them to die so they can walk on into the enemies DZ and do actions while dropping a nice grip of damage on whatever they land close to.

 

One squad deploys on foot for some scout stuff (I don't own any Chimeras), the other stays in reserves to walk out later. 

[sairence]

Yeah, as Dr Clock said. I usually try to get them in an awkward position on or near an objective early on, often with take cover to buff their save, and then use their order economy to make them annoying to remove and prevent some early primary for my opponent. If they can hold something for 1-2 turns before they get recycled that's generally good enough. The mine almost guarantees some damage when they get charged.

 

And then they come back from strat reserves and get put there where they can get me the most secondary points generally, or where they can continue to be an annoying roadblock. They're still Guardsmen, after all.

[Dr. Clock]

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Not a whole army’s attack, just the attack of the unit most likely to shoot and possibly charge them.

Sure... I generally figure a 2k army has about 3 distinct 'attacks' it can line up in any game, but each attacks could represent 1 to like 4 units working together.

 

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

blunting an attack from an intercessor squad at the very least,

I think they can do this, but it's not guaranteed. Also assuming you mean 10 Intercessors, which would already be a punch up for any kasrkin, and doubly so if you try to mix in melee with assault intercessors. In my Storm Lords, 2 of my 'attacks' are based around early aggro from character + 10 Intercessors. Ya gotta respect that volume of chainsword swings, so Kasrkin and their friends are going to have to plink that squad down probably AFTER it's reached its objective and the game becomes about feeding a unit of high OC idiots on to the objective every turn. Kasrkin are going to be best threatening to shoot anything that jumps on the point from ~18" on like turn 2, and then closing the gap and only charging if absolutely necessary or likely to not be murdered. As a rule of thumb: take 20 battleline infantry for every 10 kasrkin...

 

14 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

using mine WYSIWYG and again they’re the old metal models with only two special weapons

There's your problem right there... They are not worth 120 without all the bells and whistles.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Sergeant Bastone]

Scions are amazing for the points now.  I've run them as a 5 man squad, a 10 man squad, a 5 man + command squad and currently 10 man + command squad.

 

5 man squads can do secondaries but don't do enough shooting and die very easily.  10 man squads are great.  I'm getting 2 melta shots and 5 plasma shots all hitting on 3s with rerolls, and you can put them back into reserves to drop down wherever next turn as well.  A command squad really blasts them into the stratosphere even more.  Drop down and cast Take Cover, Output 3 melta shots and 8 plasma shots, And you have a 6+FNP.  It'll take dedicated shooting to remove you, you dropped in to a spot of your choosing and hopefully killed the thing 9" away.  After the enemy succeeds in killing you just put the 10 man squad into reserves and drop that down next turn.  Definitely worth the points.  Only downside is that the models cost a pretty penny.

 

[brother_b]

Great answers all around thank you all for the primer on tactics.

 

I am leery of planning for constant recycling of units. I base this on my current army (which I’m building) being GSC and seeing the “nerfs” to GSC being able to recycle units with cult ambush. I don’t think they’ll remove the ability but I could see them making it less effective.

 

I do want to plan for effective initial use.

 

It seems that this is a good unit for threat projection, especially against weaker units such as backfield units. It also seems it could be an effective speed bump for an early objective grab.

 

I look forward to more discussion.

[DemonGSides]

Reinforcements! is pretty fundamental to how the infantry play in Guard right now; I don't think it'll get taken away until a possible codex, and there I would expect it to show up in the Infantry angled detatchments, whereas the Tank/Artillery/whatever detatchments will have heal armor or something like that instead.

It costs CP, and 2 already, so I think it's probably fine where it is.  You basically have to dedicate an entire phases worth of CP unless you also pay for Lord Solar (which you probably should).  If you want to aim for infantry, I think playing around Reinforcements! is probably the strongest way to aim.

I also aim Reinforcements! at Rough Riders as well.  It can also drop Sentinels back in for scouting purposes.  It's really useful.  It's already pretty limited to being only usable on Regiment keyword, so I think it's plenty balanced already and not in threat of being nerfed PRIOR to codex, which could be literally at any point as we've had not even a rumor of ours on the horizon.

Ultimately, buy the models you like the most between the two; or buy a 3rd type and proxy it as whichever one you want to play it as.  They have pretty similar loadouts or at least close enough to proxy.

[sairence]

On 6/19/2024 at 5:24 AM, DemonGSides said:

Reinforcements! is pretty fundamental to how the infantry play in Guard right now; I don't think it'll get taken away until a possible codex, and there I would expect it to show up in the Infantry angled detatchments, whereas the Tank/Artillery/whatever detatchments will have heal armor or something like that instead.

It costs CP, and 2 already, so I think it's probably fine where it is.  You basically have to dedicate an entire phases worth of CP unless you also pay for Lord Solar (which you probably should).  If you want to aim for infantry, I think playing around Reinforcements! is probably the strongest way to aim.

I also aim Reinforcements! at Rough Riders as well.  It can also drop Sentinels back in for scouting purposes.  It's really useful.  It's already pretty limited to being only usable on Regiment keyword, so I think it's plenty balanced already and not in threat of being nerfed PRIOR to codex, which could be literally at any point as we've had not even a rumor of ours on the horizon.

Ultimately, buy the models you like the most between the two; or buy a 3rd type and proxy it as whichever one you want to play it as.  They have pretty similar loadouts or at least close enough to proxy.

 

Well, this kinda aged like milk. 

 

Reinforcements being limited to once per game now kinda kills it as a game plan and relegates it to nice to have, but ultimately more cute than super impactful.

 

We unfortunately don't have a single eligible unit, where bringing it back once is going to significantly alter the game state outside of some specific situations.

 

Scions are still great thanks to their deepstrike and inherent flexibility, but Kasrkin without recylcing are a much, much harder sell imo.

 

Back to the drawing board.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, sairence said:

 

Well, this kinda aged like milk. 

 

Reinforcements being limited to once per game now kinda kills it as a game plan and relegates it to nice to have, but ultimately more cute than super impactful.

 

We unfortunately don't have a single eligible unit, where bringing it back once is going to significantly alter the game state outside of some specific situations.

 

Scions are still great thanks to their deepstrike and inherent flexibility, but Kasrkin without recylcing are a much, much harder sell imo.

 

Back to the drawing board.

Too bad we can’t use it on ogryn/bullgryn.

 

bringing them back in their backfield mid-late game could catch a lot of factions with their pants down.

[DemonGSides]

6 hours ago, sairence said:

 

Well, this kinda aged like milk. 

 

Reinforcements being limited to once per game now kinda kills it as a game plan and relegates it to nice to have, but ultimately more cute than super impactful.

 

We unfortunately don't have a single eligible unit, where bringing it back once is going to significantly alter the game state outside of some specific situations.

 

Scions are still great thanks to their deepstrike and inherent flexibility, but Kasrkin without recylcing are a much, much harder sell imo.

 

Back to the drawing board.

 

I agree it did age like milk but I wasn't wrong that reinforcements wasn't getting nerfed, TECHNICALLY :P but yeah not great. 

 

We do have 3 armored sentinel units that are great targets for Reinforcements still, since they get to get lethals against everything. But otherwise yeah, it got gutted.