Second Marine Codex?

[Orange Knight]

edit: ignore this post

Edited August 28 by Orange Knight

[DemonGSides]

 

GW just squatted an entire chapter. People had fully pained Death Watch armies - they can clearly take decisive actions.

 

Time to really go into these divergent chapters and make some sweeping changes. Dark Angels have the Companions - an awesome unit, very powerful. Why do they also have access to Bladeguard Veterans? Same can be said for Blood Angels and the Sanguinary Guard.

 

For every truly unique unit, a generic analogue should be removed. Blood Angels should lose access to the generic Primaris Captain now. If they don't, they are the only chapter that can run six captains in a game for some reason - just messy overall with the unique units that are stacked on top of the generic ones.

 

The detachments need to be a lot more limited as well. Dark Angels should not be running Gladius, Space Wolves should not be running Stormlance, etc.

 

The codex chapters should gain access to the original Oath of Moment rule to make up for their lack of extra specialised units and characters. If the win rate goes on to skew the other way then this can be looked at again and taken away on a case by case basis.

My suggestions sound drastic, but we are also talking about the weakest faction in the game by a notable margin.

 

I'd gladly lose Oath of Moment for my BA to get the LAG as their army rule. Sign me right up.

 

Otherwise this just looks like sour grapes more than anything.  Iron Hands have been devastatingly strong in the game in previous (and even this) edition and they have a similar stable of units as White Scars do; ie not many.

 

Comparing Sanguinary Guard to Bladeguard is just laughable on top of it. 

[Orange Knight]

Of course people who collect Blood Angels or Dark Angels or any of the +1 Marine variants will never want to compromise.

They get all the benefits and special treatment. 

 

Objectively speaking however, for any kind of balance to exist, additional options should come with additional restrictions. Otherwise please refer to the graph that illustrates the imbalance in terms of the game, never mind the models.

[ThaneOfTas]

 

Of course people who collect Blood Angels or Dark Angels or any of the +1 Marine variants will never want to compromise.

@DemonGSides literally said that he'd be happy to lose access to OoM. That's a partial agreement with your suggestion. i.e. by definition a compromise.

[Orange Knight]

The current OoM is a very lacklustre rule, I wouldn't particularly miss it either.

 

Are we in agreement that the codex chapters that don't have supplements should gain access to the original version of that rule, and the divergent chapters should lose it entirely? That might be a step in the right direction towards addressing the disparity.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

 

Of course people who collect Blood Angels or Dark Angels or any of the +1 Marine variants will never want to compromise.

They get all the benefits and special treatment. 

 

Objectively speaking however, for any kind of balance to exist, additional options should come with additional restrictions. Otherwise please refer to the graph that illustrates the imbalance in terms of the game, never mind the models.

 

Just wanna hop in on this.

The issue is that the Divergent LSM factions are supplements.

A "supplement" is what White Scars or Ravenguard should get, maybe 1 or 2 "unique" detachments and maybe a new unit or two.

The divergent chapters should be treated like Cult CSM are, i.e. near fully divorced from the main codex.

 

Issue is, GW won't do that.
It's sunk cost fallacy, they put too much work into the Divergent Chapters already but not enough for them to stand on their own.

Deathwatch never got that attention so they were easy to roll over to another codex (heck, none of them have left Firstborn status yet despite GW's full tilt rush to get the Primaris conversion over and done with already), but the Divergents have been getting new units in Primaris scale and have been balanced around the support of the whole codex.

 

The best option to make LSM "better" at this point, imo, would be for GW to go to the Divergent Codexs, give each of them one new detachment so they hit what seems to be the 10th ed average of 4, then say Divergent chapters cannot use the base LSM detachments (but put it in the Codex specifically, SW become trash immediately since their index sucks).

Let them use the units tho since it'd be less effort for GW to just reprint all the LSM units they can use, rather than going through and individually marking each unit as "usable" or "not usable" and ending up in the situation BA were in at edition start where they briefly lost access to the Jump Marines because they didn't have the new kit listed in their index.

 

EDIT:

Also Re: BA fielding 6 Captains.

You're wrong about that, they can field 9.

3 normal, 3 BA and 3 DC

This is, of course, excluding any Jump Captains or Captains in different armour.

Edited August 28 by Indy Techwisp

[ThaneOfTas]

 

The current OoM is a very lacklustre rule, I wouldn't particularly miss it either.

 

Are we in agreement that the codex chapters that don't have supplements should gain access to the original version of that rule, and the divergent chapters should lose it entirely? That might be a step in the right direction towards addressing the disparity.

Look I cannot overstate how little I care about the current incarnation of the rules, I do not play competitively and tournament win rates are something that I happily ignore, so take my position with a grain of salt. But yeah I do think that all marine factions having the same army rule is a bit dumb, they should either commit to having the divergent chapters have their own armies or put everything (including ALL the divergent chapters units) into one codex and use keywords to separate what can be taken together.

 

Perhaps rather than trying to rip away access to units that other people have spent good time and money on, GW could instead take inspiration from the Agents codex and give certain units in C:SM a higher points value if they're being used by other chapters, have those points values be tied to each chapter supplement in order to be able to individually adjust them. (So perhaps Blade Guard are less points efficient for DA than for codex chapters, standard captains are less efficient for BA, etc) 

Edited August 28 by ThaneOfTas

[Cenobite Terminator]

This is the worst SM codex ever, even worse than 8th edition and that’s saying something.

[DemonGSides]

 

Look I cannot overstate how little I care about the current incarnation of the rules, I do not play competitively and tournament win rates are something that I happily ignore, so take my position with a grain of salt. But yeah I do think that all marine factions having the same army rule is a bit dumb, they should either commit to having the divergent chapters have their own armies or put everything (including ALL the divergent chapters units) into one codex and use keywords to separate what can be taken together.

 

Perhaps rather than trying to rip away access to units that other people have spent good time and money on, GW could instead take inspiration from the Agents codex and give certain units in C:SM a higher points value if they're being used by other chapters, have those points values be tied to each chapter supplement in order to be able to individually adjust them. (So perhaps Blade Guard are less points efficient for DA than for codex chapters, standard captains are less efficient for BA, etc) 

 

I'd rather not add a bunch of extra points in, it's silly; the specialty forces are where you're paying extra, so now you're asking to pay extra twice. 

 

Space Marine players just need to get used to the idea that Regular Space Marines are never going to look good competitively because they are a good portion of every first time competitor's army choice, since they are by far and away the most popular army to purchase.  They're always going to be over-represented, because even if competitive circles trend towards Meta armies and whatnot, there's always going to be people who are playing Space Marines because they want to play in a tournament and it's all they own, and those people are way more populous than any other faction, by fact of the sales.

 

Considering just a year ago Uriel Vanguard was dominating, and then Ironstorm Spearhead was doing just fine prior to the DA being mixed in, I think it's a big nothing-burger.

[HeadlessCross]

 

This is the worst SM codex ever, even worse than 8th edition and that’s saying something.

I gotta disagree. I think the codex does a lot right in terms of rules. I think Detachment affecting how your Ultramarines play makes a lot more sense. The main problem comes from the army rule itself, which I think should've been the Doctrines from Gladius and then rework the detachments around that. 

 

Something like Gladius lets you use the Doctrines twice, and then the other detachments kinda based on those rules gain some kinda bonus, like Stormlance granting the same Advance + Charge and, if you use the correct Doctrine, add to the charge distance or something. There's stuff that could've been done. 

Edited August 29 by HeadlessCross

[Tacitus]

 

I gotta disagree. I think the codex does a lot right in terms of rules. I think Detachment affecting how your Ultramarines play makes a lot more sense. The main problem comes from the army rule itself, which I think should've been the Doctrines from Gladius and then rework the detachments around that. 

 

Something like Gladius lets you use the Doctrines twice, and then the other detachments kinda based on those rules gain some kinda bonus, like Stormlance granting the same Advance + Charge and, if you use the correct Doctrine, add to the charge distance or something. There's stuff that could've been done. 

Gladius doesn't let you use the doctrines twice?  And Stormlance doesn't let you use Doctrines at all?

[HeadlessCross]

 

Gladius doesn't let you use the doctrines twice?  And Stormlance doesn't let you use Doctrines at all?

Uh, no? 

[Blindhamster]

I think, as each divergent chapters supplement has come out they should have:

- removed access to the core marine detachments (want to use the divergent units? use a divergent detachment)

- done what they've just done with Agents and made it so that codex units that benefit more from divergent detachments will cost more if/where needed

- put in /some/ restrictions. I don't agree on the removal of some of the units OK suggests, the way 3rd edition did it was best, most codex units weren't removed entirely (in fact, I dont recall if any were), but quite a few had 0-1 limitations. Importantly, the units that got that were things that thematically didn't fit so well. Stuff like Bladeguard absolutely fit Blood Angels, same for Vanguard. Sternguard I could see being a 0-1 unit in blood angels though. Comparing ICC or Sanguinary Guard to "regular" veterans is a bit of a failure in comprehension though, they are different within chapter organisation, it would be Company Heroes thats closest analogue for those units within chapter structure (but I'd argue that they still make sense too).

 

stuff like "lets take away the basic captain from blood angels is dumb :cuss: as a suggestion though. Said as someone that owns every captain model that has been made. The /correct/ suggestion for the captain would have been to simply make the wargear options and errata update to the standard one.

 

It's really interesting seeing the thoughts though, because Blood Angels started 10th and went through most of 9th being pretty low down the rankings as far as marines went, its only really been since they got a buff to the SoS that we saw it change at all.

 

Also intrigued what things from the core marine codex ultramarines will give up if they went with removing options route :D They have more characters than white scars so are white scars +1 right?

[HeadlessCross]

Okay but WHY are Sternguard a 0-1 choice for Blood Angels in your example?

[DemonGSides]

Right and then what about successor chapters where you lean BA but aren't fully BA?
 

[Orange Knight]

 

Right and then what about successor chapters where you lean BA but aren't fully BA?
 

 

They still have access to the unique BA units, and the characters.

 

There are no actual rules to seperate a successor chapter.

Especially now that Seth is gone...

[Blindhamster]

a means to show their propensity toward melee combat, rather than shooting. It was also just an example of a unit.

 

in the actual 3e supplement i was referring to, its actually scout squads that are 0-1, we had "blood angel scout squads" as well though, which were scouts which didnt get the sniper rifle options.

 

My point was more around the idea that sure I could see some restrictions (but realistically not straight up removals), the things that would fall into those categories realistically should be based on better representing how the chapter is portrayed though, ergo no bladeguard as they're a melee focused veteran unit which blood angels absolutely would favour over sternguard.

 

Looking at the blood angels example right now anyway, based on actual unique units available to us, and how they've played in the preview games a few of the big channels have done, I'm not convinced our units are what make blood angels marines +1 (anymore... the index versions of both sanguinary guard and death company were much much stronger, and we also lost our unique dreads).

 

[Helias_Tancred]

There have been rumors in this edition that GW has been wanting to "simplify" their codex divergent marine chapter lines, to make it easier for people new to the hobby to collect, and also probably for production issues too?

 

That being said, Blood Angels weren't squatted, and as bad a treatment as the Deathwatch received, some vestige of them hangs on and is playable. The thematic lore vestige, kill teams you can ally in. I still think every Deathwatch collector should receive a fat gift certificate from GW, but that's neither here nor there.

 

10 years ago we 40k hobbyists didn't have the luxury of a thriving 3D printed bits and model community. Now we do. If you thought the new Sanguinary Guard were a tad bland, which is my opinion, no big deal you have options to customize them to how to want them to look. Even your old SG bits look great on them.

 

The only advice I can give is follow the money, that always helps explain why GW does the things they do. In the case of codex divergent chapters getting more bland, or things taken away that make them more unique, follow the profit logic.

 

[HeadlessCross]

 

a means to show their propensity toward melee combat, rather than shooting. It was also just an example of a unit.

 

in the actual 3e supplement i was referring to, its actually scout squads that are 0-1, we had "blood angel scout squads" as well though, which were scouts which didnt get the sniper rifle options.

 

My point was more around the idea that sure I could see some restrictions (but realistically not straight up removals), the things that would fall into those categories realistically should be based on better representing how the chapter is portrayed though, ergo no bladeguard as they're a melee focused veteran unit which blood angels absolutely would favour over sternguard.

 

Looking at the blood angels example right now anyway, based on actual unique units available to us, and how they've played in the preview games a few of the big channels have done, I'm not convinced our units are what make blood angels marines +1 (anymore... the index versions of both sanguinary guard and death company were much much stronger, and we also lost our unique dreads).

 

They're still a Codex adhering Chapter though. White Scars didn't even get special treatment with their Bikes and Transports despite being the Chapter supposedly specializing in that. Would other Chapter suddenly lose access to multiple Biker units? Of course not, because that's as silly as Blood Angels losing multiple Sternguard. 

[Orange Knight]

 

They're still a Codex adhering Chapter though. White Scars didn't even get special treatment with their Bikes and Transports despite being the Chapter supposedly specializing in that. Would other Chapter suddenly lose access to multiple Biker units? Of course not, because that's as silly as Blood Angels losing multiple Sternguard. 

 

So by that simple fact, if they have Marines in unique squads they would have less or no Marines in other squads?

 

Limit of 1000 and all.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

So by that simple fact, if they have Marines in unique squads they would have less or no Marines in other squads?

 

Limit of 1000 and all.

Death Company aren't added to the 1000 total as far as I'm aware per fluff, and that logic from you would dictate that Sternguard are more prone to succumbing to insanity. 

[jaxom]

 

Anyway, this thread was intended to be a kind of "Wishlist/Speculation" thread about what LSM could get in a hypothetical "Codex 2" and what people would want to see LSM get prior to 11th, if anything.
It has certainly... evolved from that point tho.

 

The following is basically my reasoning why the next codex should give up on separating Chapters and instead offer unit packages (units that once taken lock out taking other units). 

 

 

For every truly unique unit, a generic analogue should be removed. Blood Angels should lose access to the generic Primaris Captain now. If they don't, they are the only chapter that can run six captains in a game for some reason - just messy overall with the unique units that are stacked on top of the generic ones.

 

The detachments need to be a lot more limited as well. Dark Angels should not be running Gladius, Space Wolves should not be running Stormlance, etc.

 

Of course people who collect Blood Angels or Dark Angels or any of the +1 Marine variants will never want to compromise.

They get all the benefits and special treatment. 

 

Objectively speaking however, for any kind of balance to exist, additional options should come with additional restrictions. Otherwise please refer to the graph that illustrates the imbalance in terms of the game, never mind the models.

 

A key feature of how the Rules Team approached Space Marines was, "Space Marines are Space Marines." All Marines can do all the Marine Things(TM), though some of them prefer specific types of Marine Things(TM), and others can Special Marine Things(TM).

 

Regardless of that philosophy, Fourth Edition already showed that removing options from Divergent Chapters (Minor, Major, We Get Our Own Book) offers only the illusion of consequence. Lists build around strengths and avoid weaknesses. Positive traits/rules which provide advantages in a mission-meta are flocked and so are negative traits/rules which provide disadvantages outside a mission-meta (i.e. not being able to take more than one Devastator Squad doesn't matter if no one is taking any Devastator Squads). Whether a trait/rule is positive or negative then changes over time with mission-meta.

 

So if unit and faction rule restriction is both out of vogue with the Rules Team and doesn't really mean much, why does it matter that:

 

the Divergent LSM factions are supplements.

 

It comes down to the shifting nature of a meta-game scene. If Codex: Space Marines has the current best options then all Chapters benefit. If one of the Supplements has the current best options then some Chapters benefit. 

 

 

But yeah I do think that all marine factions having the same army rule is a bit dumb, they should either commit to having the divergent chapters have their own armies or put everything (including ALL the divergent chapters units) into one codex and use keywords to separate what can be taken together.

 

I think one's opinion on the former is going to be based on how one parses factions. I think Oath of Moment is fitting for all Marines because one of the major themes of Space Marines is how they target the greatest threats and their coordination on the battlefield and I don't think that changes regardless of which squads or weapons they favor or with gene-seed variation (at the d6 level).

 

 

 

Space Marine players just need to get used to the idea that Regular Space Marines are never going to look good competitively because they are a good portion of every first time competitor's army choice, since they are by far and away the most popular army to purchase.  They're always going to be over-represented, because even if competitive circles trend towards Meta armies and whatnot, there's always going to be people who are playing Space Marines because they want to play in a tournament and it's all they own, and those people are way more populous than any other faction, by fact of the sales.

 

Does anyone remember what the stat is called for analyzing tournament results based on how often a faction gets to the elimination round or top tables, but doesn't advance or doesn't get to the finals?

 

 

Also intrigued what things from the core marine codex ultramarines will give up if they went with removing options route :D They have more characters than white scars so are white scars +1 right?

 

In 8th edition Imperial Fists had more special characters than White Scars, but post-nerf were not as good. It's not just about who has more rules and/or units, but who has the right rules and/or units for a given meta-scene. As @DemonGSides mentioned earlier, for while in 10th that was the Ultramarines. 

 

 

There have been rumors in this edition that GW has been wanting to "simplify" their codex divergent marine chapter lines, to make it easier for people new to the hobby to collect, and also probably for production issues too?

 

They wanted to condense faction and subfaction rule stacking. Subfactions now give additional options for the secondary rules layer, but do not grant additional rules. A Dark Angel Gladius Task Force is mechanically the same at the primary and secondary rules layer as a Salamanders Gladius Task Force.

 

 

They're still a Codex adhering Chapter though. White Scars didn't even get special treatment with their Bikes and Transports despite being the Chapter supposedly specializing in that. Would other Chapter suddenly lose access to multiple Biker units? Of course not, because that's as silly as Blood Angels losing multiple Sternguard. 

 

One thing I really liked about the 8th edition supplements was how they emphasized each Chapter can do everything in the Codex Astartes. The 10th edition codex has taken the approach that "specialization" (at the d6 level) just means they prefer deploying with specific detachment styles and/or unit combinations. White Scars for example, are more likely (in lore) when deploying as a Gladius Task Force to have transports for their infantry, and use Outrider Squadrons for Close Support Squads.

 

Also, this is definitely a flaw with the current model-line situation. The Marines need the character support for all their play styles and they just don't have it. The next Codex needs some more Bike characters.

 

 

 

So by that simple fact, if they have Marines in unique squads they would have less or no Marines in other squads?

 

Limit of 1000 and all.

 

Not necessarily. The Codex Astartes allows for specialized organs (in the bureaucratic sense) within a Chapter and within Companies. Examples include the Apothecarium, Reclusium, Forge(-ium), Librarium, Honor Guards, and Command Squads. Unique squads only become an issue if they fall outside the limits of the squad type: Battleline, Close Support, Fire Support, Honor Guard, and Command Squad. Many Chapters have been around for thousands of years and have access to armouries as old or older then they are. I think it would make sense for every Chapter to have access to every Marine unit.

[Tacitus]

 

Right and then what about successor chapters where you lean BA but aren't fully BA?
 

Successor Chapters are the Primary Chapter rules wise. 

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

The following is basically my reasoning why the next codex should give up on separating Chapters and instead offer unit packages (units that once taken lock out taking other units). 

 

 

A key feature of how the Rules Team approached Space Marines was, "Space Marines are Space Marines." All Marines can do all the Marine Things(TM), though some of them prefer specific types of Marine Things(TM), and others can Special Marine Things(TM).

 

Regardless of that philosophy, Fourth Edition already showed that removing options from Divergent Chapters (Minor, Major, We Get Our Own Book) offers only the illusion of consequence. Lists build around strengths and avoid weaknesses. Positive traits/rules which provide advantages in a mission-meta are flocked and so are negative traits/rules which provide disadvantages outside a mission-meta (i.e. not being able to take more than one Devastator Squad doesn't matter if no one is taking any Devastator Squads). Whether a trait/rule is positive or negative then changes over time with mission-meta.

 

So if unit and faction rule restriction is both out of vogue with the Rules Team and doesn't really mean much, why does it matter that:

 

It comes down to the shifting nature of a meta-game scene. If Codex: Space Marines has the current best options then all Chapters benefit. If one of the Supplements has the current best options then some Chapters benefit. 

 

 

I think one's opinion on the former is going to be based on how one parses factions. I think Oath of Moment is fitting for all Marines because one of the major themes of Space Marines is how they target the greatest threats and their coordination on the battlefield and I don't think that changes regardless of which squads or weapons they favor or with gene-seed variation (at the d6 level).

 

 

Does anyone remember what the stat is called for analyzing tournament results based on how often a faction gets to the elimination round or top tables, but doesn't advance or doesn't get to the finals?

 

 

In 8th edition Imperial Fists had more special characters than White Scars, but post-nerf were not as good. It's not just about who has more rules and/or units, but who has the right rules and/or units for a given meta-scene. As @DemonGSides mentioned earlier, for while in 10th that was the Ultramarines. 

 

 

They wanted to condense faction and subfaction rule stacking. Subfactions now give additional options for the secondary rules layer, but do not grant additional rules. A Dark Angel Gladius Task Force is mechanically the same at the primary and secondary rules layer as a Salamanders Gladius Task Force.

 

 

One thing I really liked about the 8th edition supplements was how they emphasized each Chapter can do everything in the Codex Astartes. The 10th edition codex has taken the approach that "specialization" (at the d6 level) just means they prefer deploying with specific detachment styles and/or unit combinations. White Scars for example, are more likely (in lore) when deploying as a Gladius Task Force to have transports for their infantry, and use Outrider Squadrons for Close Support Squads.

 

Also, this is definitely a flaw with the current model-line situation. The Marines need the character support for all their play styles and they just don't have it. The next Codex needs some more Bike characters.

 

 

Not necessarily. The Codex Astartes allows for specialized organs (in the bureaucratic sense) within a Chapter and within Companies. Examples include the Apothecarium, Reclusium, Forge(-ium), Librarium, Honor Guards, and Command Squads. Unique squads only become an issue if they fall outside the limits of the squad type: Battleline, Close Support, Fire Support, Honor Guard, and Command Squad. Many Chapters have been around for thousands of years and have access to armouries as old or older then they are. I think it would make sense for every Chapter to have access to every Marine unit.

It seems like we mostly agree. While I can appreciate what the Marine supplements gave, it's important to note how those subfaction rules themselves locked units out. For example, White Scars basically getting locked out ot Devastators since Advance + Charge is ultimately useless for them. While it's fine that rule is useless for them, it's also a detriment to someone running Khan at that point, since that was the only way you got access to him. In this aspect, I like the Detachments influencing how you build and the Characters are secondary to that. Now Khan can be ran with another unit alongside your Devastators in case you wanted to be sneaky in Vanguard or get up close with Firestorm. 

 

We also agree on Characters and quite honestly I liked the Ward method from 5th: choose the Characters you like the rules for and just proxy/convert. I ran Pedro Kantor and Tyberos in the same army in 5th LOL. 

 

Balance wise, is Vulkan and Calgar being ran in the same army an actual balance issue? Nope, because CSM can do it with Fabius, Huron, and Jump Pack dude, and lemme tell you something: nobody cares. 

[Tacitus]

The special rules of Calgar and Vulkan aren't the same as Fabius + Huron + Huron?  and I'm pretty sure Fabius is going to be Slaanesh/Emperor's Children when their book comes out - though that may be 11th. 

 

And those two might not be the cross overs they're trying to prevent.  Imagine using Guilliman's ability to reroll Battleshock with the Battleshock shenanigans of the Dark Angels. 

 

Or Calgar and Sammael so now you have two units that can advance and shoot/charge without having to give up a det like Gladius.  Tigurius leading a unit of Inner Circle Champions.  You get -1 for Tiggy, which is offset by the relatively easy to get +1, but then you get another -1 for the ICC: and its hard to get a second +1 to hit.  How about Lysander leading Deathwing Knights?  -1 to wound, and -1 to Damage even if you do wound.  There are combos I doubt they wanted to create if you mix and match Chapter Specials.