Kill Team Kill Team: Hivestorm (New Edition)

[Indy Techwisp]

 

Changes to equipment selection in the Stingwing article today- equipment is no longer purchased- instead, it's a pick 4 situation. They don't say if that's per model or team, and without seeing the lists that you choose from we can't say whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I only mention it because GW has insisted "Rules aren't changing much."

 

Looks better to me.

Most of the "good" equipment was around the 2-or-3EP mark leaning more towards the latter, so with your 10EP you were usually only picking 4 things anyway (outside of edge cases like taking Stimms on literally everyone possible in a Breachers list.)

[Lord Marshal]

Preview of the Co-op/PvE mode..

 

The Raptor Intercessors I don't think we've seen before? Probably a good sign the team is sticking around, though it always seemed unlikely they'd bin off the direct "come and get a taste of KT, Marine players" team.

 

Edited August 23 by Lord Marshal

[Marshall Bretton]

The rules for coop/solo play look like they will be pretty good from what they have shown. Nice simple rules for enemy and done in a way that I think would make it really easy to generate your own scenarios on top of the free ones and increase the challenge.

 

I'm looking forward to giving it a go

[Rusted Boltgun]

Good to see Gallowdark referenced again here too. Some backwards compatibility is drawing me closer to keeping involved in (purchasing more of) Kill Team.

[307kg]

 

Preview of the Co-op/PvE mode..

 

The Raptor Intercessors I don't think we've seen before? Probably a good sign the team is sticking around, though it always seemed unlikely they'd bin off the direct "come and get a taste of KT, Marine players" team.

 

Interesting to see them use this photo considering that Compendium 'nids would not get updated rules this edition. Seems like there may be more to how this plays out.

Edited August 23 by 307kg

[Allart01]

 

Interesting to see them use this photo considering that Compendium 'nids would not get updated rules this edition. Seems like there may be more to how this plays out.

They’re there as npc opponents, which you will be able to represent with some model-agnostic statlines.

 

Sounds promising to me!

Edited August 23 by Allart01

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

Looks better to me.

Most of the "good" equipment was around the 2-or-3EP mark leaning more towards the latter, so with your 10EP you were usually only picking 4 things anyway (outside of edge cases like taking Stimms on literally everyone possible in a Breachers list.)

 

As always, my issue is how updates for standalone games mess with campaign play. In spec ops, you don't pick 10 points worth of stuff from the full list of available options before every battle; instead, you add stuff to your stash over time using requisitions, and anything in your stash as fair game for a battle, though in most cases, you're still going to be capped at bringing 10 points from your stash.

 

So in a Spec Ops campaign, I start with nothing, but every RP I burn on equipment lets me add 5 points of gear to my stash. With my first RP, I'm going to focus on cheap gear, because multiple operatives with minor augmentations is better than a single model with a more substantial modification. The cost of equipment serves an additional purpose; not only does it determine how much you bring, it determines how much you are able to acquire. 

 

While equipment was costed, there was a system that Spec Ops players could leverage to add depth to campaign play. If equipment has no cost, the campaign system can't make use of a stash concept, because there's no mechanism for growing a stash. Simplification of core rules means that campaign rules lose core concepts. A similar example is how the crippling of psychic ability in 10th by necessity eliminated the whole psychic category of Battle Honours.

 

Making things simple for people who play standalone games sounds like a great idea when that's all you play, but it shouldn't come at the expense of campaign play.

Edited August 23 by ThePenitentOne

[Ace Debonair]

 

 

Making things simple for people who play standalone games sounds like a great idea when that's all you play, but it shouldn't come at the expense of campaign play.

 

While I agree completely with this point, I also feel it's only fair to point out they haven't had an article about campaign play yet; it might be they're focusing on single-game stuff as is used in tournaments and the like (as is GW's wont these days). 

 

The old system may well yet exist in campaign play - much as I hate waiting for more information, we've no choice but to wait and see what news they choose to drip-feed us on that front.

 

The system they're using for co-op is almost exactly like the version I was using for my nephews to play, except I hadn't really gone into custom statlines for the NPCs, so I'm almost giddy with excitement at what they're doing with regards to that, at least. 

 

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

 

 

The old system may well yet exist in campaign play - much as I hate waiting for more information, we've no choice but to wait and see what news they choose to drip-feed us on that front.

 

 

 

The old system can't exist if equipment has no cost. Like I said, campaign rules use elements of core rules in different ways.

 

It's stupid to have points for equipment if they aren't used in standalone games- people would see points, but they'd mean nothing. And while I'm an avid campaign player, I acknowledge that stand-alone games are the more common mode of play, so a whole lot of people would be scratching their heads wondering why there are point costs that aren't used.

 

It's possible that they print one copy of the equipment list without points in the matched section and another copy of the list with points in the spec ops section, but that's even more stupid than having points that aren't used by the most common game mode.

 

The final possibility is that they adapt the requisition so that it doesn't rely on the points- IE. Use this requisition to add X pieces of equipment to your stash. I see this as the most likely scenario if the stash mechanic continues to exist in campaign play, assuming that the idea of campaign play itself survives. But it's still inferior, because it leads to a situation where only top tier gear is ever added to someone's stash. I'd buy 5 one-point pieces of gear instead of one great piece and one good piece with my first RP in a heartbeat.

 

But if I am adding 2 pieces of gear every time I use the Requisition, they're always going to be the two best pieces of gear I can get. 

 

Heck, with the rules as is, you often take gear that you otherwise wouldn't because you have points left over after buying the big shiny. Without points, there's never a scenario where it makes sense to have those items in the stash- you either make the most of the RP by selecting the best gear, or you use the RP to buy a different Requisition.

 

 

[Ace Debonair]

Well, fair enough.  

 

I'll continue to hope it all turns out better than you're expecting, regardless. 

 

[ThePenitentOne]

Even I still have that hope brother. I'm not complaining about any of these things (yet)- merely pointing them out. There still is a lot of speculation, and it won't be resolved until the goonhammer review drops- usually shortly after the preorder.

 

If the cost of adding Solo and coop was ditching spec-ops, that's sad, but not insurmountable, as much of spec ops can probably still be bolted back on as-is, with only minor adjustments to make it work. It's not like I don't have a fair bit of adaptation to do anyway, since GW didn't get the Agents dex 100% right either.

[RedFox]

Do we know if there's gonna be more freedom to kill team composition in term of what models you can mix together? I especially disliked how space marines worked in last edition.

[Emperor Ming]

 

Do we know if there's gonna be more freedom to kill team composition in term of what models you can mix together? I especially disliked how space marines worked in last edition.

By the looks of it, far less freedom, from the article im not sure if marines will survive as a kill team, 

 

As the compendium lists are going. No doubt they will get another release. 

[INKS]

Compendium is gone but all the other teams should be fine and survive.

[Indy Techwisp]

 

By the looks of it, far less freedom, from the article im not sure if marines will survive as a kill team, 

 

As the compendium lists are going. No doubt they will get another release. 

 

Considering that is a combined Intercession and Tempestus Aquillon team shown in the picture, I think it's gonna stay.

Also, do you really believe GW would scrap the "Hey! Giant horde of Marine players! Here's a Killteam just for you and your giant pile of Intercessors!" team and thus cut off one of the major entry points for the system?

 

 

The old system can't exist if equipment has no cost. Like I said, campaign rules use elements of core rules in different ways.

It's stupid to have points for equipment if they aren't used in standalone games- people would see points, but they'd mean nothing. And while I'm an avid campaign player, I acknowledge that stand-alone games are the more common mode of play, so a whole lot of people would be scratching their heads wondering why there are point costs that aren't used.

It's possible that they print one copy of the equipment list without points in the matched section and another copy of the list with points in the spec ops section, but that's even more stupid than having points that aren't used by the most common game mode.

The final possibility is that they adapt the requisition so that it doesn't rely on the points- IE. Use this requisition to add X pieces of equipment to your stash. I see this as the most likely scenario if the stash mechanic continues to exist in campaign play, assuming that the idea of campaign play itself survives. But it's still inferior, because it leads to a situation where only top tier gear is ever added to someone's stash. I'd buy 5 one-point pieces of gear instead of one great piece and one good piece with my first RP in a heartbeat.

But if I am adding 2 pieces of gear every time I use the Requisition, they're always going to be the two best pieces of gear I can get. 

Heck, with the rules as is, you often take gear that you otherwise wouldn't because you have points left over after buying the big shiny. Without points, there's never a scenario where it makes sense to have those items in the stash- you either make the most of the RP by selecting the best gear, or you use the RP to buy a different Requisition.

 

It's probably likely that your "Stash" in Campaign play will work differently now, yes.
I'm betting that you'll start with a "full stash" a.k.a you've got everything on the list (both your team's list and the generic list they mentioned with Ladders and Barricades and stuff) at Campaign start, but once you've used that Barricade or Shotgun Slugs or whatever they're removed from the stash as "spent" and you need to spend RP to replenish them/add duplicates.

[Agramar_The_Luna_Wolf]

 

Preview of the Co-op/PvE mode..

 

The Raptor Intercessors I don't think we've seen before? Probably a good sign the team is sticking around, though it always seemed unlikely they'd bin off the direct "come and get a taste of KT, Marine players" team.

 

Maybe new miniatures? It's not usual for GW use conversions/kitbashes in promotional pics...

[Indy Techwisp]

 

Maybe new miniatures? It's not usual for GW use conversions/kitbashes in promotional pics...

 

It is, however, something GW does if they have the conversion lying around already and it fits the tone.
I'm pretty sure these Raptors are in a Case at Warhammer World, which would be where they've come from...

[Brother Tyler]

While I groaned at the thought of my current Kill Team books being invalidated by a new edition, I was encouraged to hear that the rules aren't changing much. The things I'm most excited about are:

• Removal of the stupid distance icons and return to numbers
• Introduction of jump/jet pack units
• Free online rules for factions
• Player versus environment (PvE) rules

I'm skeptical about the fear that the online rules will be limited. That would seem to be contrary to what they've claimed. I expect that we'll get the full rules such as we've seen in the annuals. What we won't see in the free online rules is the lore, similar to the way the lore isn't included in the annuals. We'll see...

 

The introduction of flying units creates a lot of opportunity for expansion of factions. Personally, I hope to see an expansion of the Aeldari Corsairs to include something akin to the "old" Corsairs from The Doom of Mymeara. Swooping Hawks are much more likely, I know, but I'd prefer the Corsairs. Most factions have flying units, creating a lot of opportunities for broad expansion of the kill team options available to players; and many factions that don't [currently] have flying units might see that niche filled in for Kill Team (and later added to Warhammer 40,000, if we're lucky).

 

The PvE is the aspect that I am most excited about, however. This concept enables something that I have been working on, but also harkens back (a wee bit) to the original version of Kill Team, back when it was just an optional way to play in the 4th edition of Warhammer 40,000. It's not exactly the same, but it's close enough. I love that it allows for co-op and solo play. The co-op concept isn't just good for teaching new players, but is also good for changing things up a bit and mitigating competitiveness. I've become a big fan of co-op gaming and am pleased to see it incorporated into the Warhammer 40,000 pantheon.

 

The Hivestorm box looks like it's going to be great. I'm not personally interested enough in either of the factions to want it for myself, but I can see how a lot of players would want one or both of the included kill teams; and the general use bits are nice for everyone (I expect those to be released separately later). I'll be fine with the core rulebook, tokens, and those general use bits (when those come out separately).

 

One thing I'm not too keen on is the change in [some of the] iconography. We went from a crosshairs icon for shooting attacks to three rounds, and from crossed knives for melee attacks to a single blade. I can understand how those might be inherent in creating the new datacard formats and clearly differentiating them from the old ones, but I think that the format change would have been sufficient. It's a minor quibble, certainly not something to get worked up over, but worth mentioning.

[ThePenitentOne]

I've got a couple must-have purchases on the horizon, but I'd consider this box; the regular starter, when it comes, will have less terrain. It matters, since I don't have any of this type of terrain in my collection, and there's a solid amount in this box. And I am interested in both of the teams- I have the Kroot box to go with Vespid, and I've got some Scions from Ashes of Faith plus a smattering of guard and Agents.

 

I agree that flying coming into the game opens possibilities for most factions- I can see a KT of Seraphim and/or Zephyrim. Solo and coop is very cool, but I wish they'd say something about Spec Ops, because I'm afraid it may have been bumped to make room. Also: Spec Ops, even if it survives, is unlikely to be free just as  Crusade isn't free in 40k.

 

It may be possible that the existing Spec Ops rules continue to be compatible.

[Noserenda]

Poor flying stealth suits that have always been in the game getting dropped though.

[Mandragola]

I’m really interested in this release. Kill Team might be the game I enjoy most as an actual game to play, rivalling even AT.
 

So far nearly all the changes look positive, with the exception of having four set pieces of equipment. GW likes to pretend it can make things of equal value so you don’t need points, but it obviously can’t and won’t. Some stuff will be better and other stuff will be left on the shelf. That won’t be a game-breaking issue, but it’s a silly mistake. 
 

On the plus side though, is pretty much everything else. A co-op mode is a great plan, especially if there are proper missions and campaigns beyond just killing all the bugs you can. 
 

For marines I think we’re looking at a new boxed intercession team there, probably with the second wave of the edition. I can’t match up pieces like that camo cloak to the existing ones on any of the eliminators and so on. The silenced pistol and smoke grenade seem new too, and the latter isn’t even available to intercession now so it would be a weird conversion to do. And I just don’t think WHC would use someone’s converted team to promote a new product - they’d want to show us something they’ll soon be able to sell to us. 

[ZeroWolf]

I thought people worked out in the other thread that they were a custom team (though a proper one was teased by a well known runour monger , though it isnt likely to the third box at least?). Apparently they were even on display at WHW.

 

Thinking of it though, GW have gotten better at not accidentally leaking new figures through photos advertising other things (like the new Ork boyz kit).

[Indy Techwisp]

 

For marines I think we’re looking at a new boxed intercession team there, probably with the second wave of the edition. I can’t match up pieces like that camo cloak to the existing ones on any of the eliminators and so on. The silenced pistol and smoke grenade seem new too, and the latter isn’t even available to intercession now so it would be a weird conversion to do. And I just don’t think WHC would use someone’s converted team to promote a new product - they’d want to show us something they’ll soon be able to sell to us. 

 

It's a Kitbashed Intercession Squad killteam.

 

The models are kitbashes designed to represent Raptors and they're usually on display in WHW's Exhibition.

Silencer on the pistol is just glued to the end of the normal pistol.
Smoke Grenade is an arm from the Phobos Team replacing the normal Grenade arm on the Assault Intercessor with the Grenade Bandolier.

Cloak guy is probably an Eliminator's Cloak, Head and Torso with normal Intercessor Legs, Arms and a Stalker Bolt Rifle from the Sternguard Veterans.

[Emperor Ming]

 

Also, do you really believe GW would scrap the "Hey! Giant horde of Marine players! Here's a Killteam just for you and your giant pile of Intercessors!" team and thus cut off one of the major entry points for the system?

Not scrap as in get rid of completely, but can I see them replacing them with new bespoke specific miniature marine kill teams?

 

Absolutely

[Noserenda]

I think if they wanted to make bespoke Marine kill teams we would have seen one by now? It certainly seems like they are determined to make every conceivable human elite in 4+ armour team instead :D