Kill Team Kill Team: Hivestorm (New Edition)

[INKS]

 

 

 

Yes, you are a little.

 

They very clearly state:

 

"From now on, every kill team will receive consistently updated rules for two editions – updates will be quarterly, while smaller adjustments may be made as required. Every team will remain in the product range for four full seasons – seasons generally last 12 months, though they can be longer or shorter as required. This is to ensure a manageable range that we can keep in stock.*"

 

So you can see any new kill teams released will be valid for the competitive game for 4 years, not 1 season. This is all very clear and it's an assumption albeit a safe one that any recently released kill teams (which you'll note they conveniently haven't done for a while and are sat on a few from last season to be released) will follow the 4 year plan, giving you a strong gauge on when they'll get nuked.

Ok, so you get 4 years out of Vespids. Got it. Then they are useless for tournament play. However I was talking about the current teams. Which in fact are only good for 1 season. Why would I buy Kommando's which was my example. I still have no interest in buying into a game or system where my favorite team gets eliminated in 4 years time. Or any time table really. I do agree with you that it's rather silly to think that an army you stat today will still be valid in 4 years. But they aren't actually telling me that. Now they are telling me, in approx 4 years, your Vespid team is probably dead for tournament play. Just rubs me the wrong way. It's fine really, just means I won't buy into kill team any longer.

 

You're knee jerking here. You don't know which factions will get a kill team in the first year, many already don't have representation. But it's not about whether every 40k army should or needs representation in kill team, nor should it be. I get it's a nice to have but it's not essential. That leads to inventing a load of stuff that doesn't make sense just to tick a box.

I am knee jerking a little here for sure. I can 100% appreciate that.

This is exactly my point. I don't know when or if they are going to axe my favorite team. That is not a good feeling.

I don't care about 40k's representation in kill team.

 

Edit: you weren't talking to me directly in the second one here, but it does apply to me. I am knee jerking for sure.

 

Edited September 6 by INKS

[ThePenitentOne]

 

 

 

Yes, you are a little.

 

They very clearly state:

 

"From now on, every kill team will receive consistently updated rules for two editions – updates will be quarterly, while smaller adjustments may be made as required. Every team will remain in the product range for four full seasons – seasons generally last 12 months, though they can be longer or shorter as required. This is to ensure a manageable range that we can keep in stock.*"

 

So you can see any new kill teams released will be valid for the competitive game for 4 years, not 1 season. This is all very clear and it's an assumption albeit a safe one that any recently released kill teams (which you'll note they conveniently haven't done for a while and are sat on a few from last season to be released) will follow the 4 year plan, giving you a strong gauge on when they'll get nuked.

Yes, but I think he was referring to the fourteen teams that they announced won't be Tournament legal year two.

 

People might be motivated to buy the other 19 teams, because those continue to be tournament legal in year two. 

 

Now for people who don't care about tournaments, sure, those teams rotated out of Classified status will continue to be "supported" for the rest of this edition, and any new teams that come out this edition will continue to be supported for this edition and the next (though they won't necessarily continue to maintain classified status for that long).

 

But hey, we're only 37 months from the edition that will come after the one that they haven't released yet, and anything they say today is subject to change when KT27 drops.

[Rusted Boltgun]

A tricky one for GW, this.

On one hand they have avoided edition churn and invalidating everything that came before it - in the way that KT21 killed off KT18.

On the other hand, some of the older teams from KT21 will be removed in 12 months ( from tournament play) and anything that is released in future will only have a finite lifespan (in tournament play).

Given the choice (which we weren't), this seems the lesser of two evils?

 

[INKS]

 

Yes, but I think he was referring to the fourteen teams that they announced won't be Tournament legal year two.

 

People might be motivated to buy the other 19 teams, because those continue to be tournament legal in year two. 

 

Now for people who don't care about tournaments, sure, those teams rotated out of Classified status will continue to be "supported" for the rest of this edition, and any new teams that come out this edition will continue to be supported for this edition and the next (though they won't necessarily continue to maintain classified status for that long).

 

But hey, we're only 37 months from the edition that will come after the one that they haven't released yet, and anything they say today is subject to change when KT27 drops.

Yes, I was initially speaking about the 14 teams that are leaving in a year.

Gellerpox for example have had less than 4 years. A team I love. sad to see them go.

This is a little close to home because I do not have friends or people who play locally. So I only get to play a few times a year, sometimes once a year at tournaments. 

that is a me problem. I know that.

I just don't like the idea that if I buy Vespids they are on a 4 year clock. maybe less.

I don't like that Kommando's leaves in a year only to be replaced by Kommando 2.0 -- this is speculation. but that has been a rumor for a while.

I don't like relying on GW to update the rules on the regular. they aren't always good at that. 

[Lord Marshal]

 

Well, they just killed kill team or me.

sigh... why do they do the things that they do?

I do not know why anyone would ever buy into ANY TEAM in season 1. They are literally killing those teams off after 1 season. So if you have them, then great play them but there is very little reason to spend money on them at all. Which is odd for a company to just pull these kits when these kits aren't even that old. SOME of them have a little 40k play. SOME. But most of them don't really have play there either. 

 

What's worse is they kill off Kommando's just so they can release a new Ork kill team that you now buy in to. To then turn around and in X time they will kill that team off. Who knows how long that will be. 2 years? 3 years? I am not buying into that.

 

I do understand that this is there way to manage teams because they already have too many and it's only going to get worse as the release new ones. I understand you can only have so many model ranges you can produce at any given time and the new gives way to the old. But these kits are not that old. 

 

I don't see why I would want to buy into a mini range / game where I need to throw my whole team out for play every 2-3 years. Imagine if your 40k army just became tournament useless in 3 years when 11th edition came around... I just don't get it overall and it's turned me off of the game. I am not buying into a new edition and new kill teams just to have them killed off in a new tournament season. I certainly who not buy ANY of  the old teams now, ALL of them are on borrowed time.

 

Am I crazy here? 

 

I suspect their logic is that because the boxsets instantly sell-out, the existing Kill Team playerbase must be the ones buying up the new teams - not because of 40k players, scalpers and/or people who only got into the game because their 40k faction finally received a team. If they're looking at it from that perspective this doesn't matter much because they believe the playerbase has plenty of teams to keep them occupied long after they start booting them and they'll continue buying the new boxes away.

 

The problem is that most Kill Team players I know tend to stick with 1-2 'main' teams either because they enjoy the way they play or because they play X faction in 40k and want to play it in Kill Team as well - see all of the disappointment from Tyranid/Death Guard/Talons/etc players whenever another Guard-adjacent team gets announced - many of which won't play something else unless their 40k faction happens to have two teams (Votann, Eldar, etc). I am worried about what this will do for the health of the game. 

 

Realising that you'll only really be able to play a team you love the look/playstyle of for a maximum of four years (if you buy it as soon as it comes out that is) I can see being really poisonous for the longevity of the game, which is ironic, because I'm sure the rotation was pitched as it being a way to ensure people keep buying and buying. "But GW isn't confiscating your models, you can still play with them!" I know that, but in practice this isn't the way the vast majority of people look at this. It's especially bad for Kill Team because the community is largely very competitive minded which means adhering to the Party Line is seen as very important.

 

Lil Timmy picking up a box of Kommandos and being told by the local players: "Oooo... that team will be illegal in a few months. Maybe grab one of these instead?" is not going to be a great conversation starter to be had with newbies, but one I suspect many people will be having as we approach the second season of KT'24.

 

The irony in all this is that I will probably be buying LESS teams, not more. If I know I'm only going to be getting use out of a team for a set period then I'm more likely to want to maximise my time with what is a temporary product, unlike prior seasons where I happily bought into various teams knowing I'd take them out for a spin at some point in the future anyway. I still have a couple of teams on the sprue, but those will definitely be going on Ebay now instead simply because I won't get enough games in with them before they're UnClassified to justify not doing so.

 

 

Edited September 6 by Lord Marshal

[INKS]

 

 

I suspect their logic is that because the boxsets instantly sell-out, the existing Kill Team playerbase must be the ones buying up the new teams - not because of 40k players, scalpers and/or people who only got into the game because their 40k faction finally received a team. If they're looking at it from that perspective this doesn't matter much because they believe the playerbase has plenty of teams to keep them occupied long after they start booting them and they'll continue buying the new boxes away.

 

The problem is that most Kill Team players I know tend to stick with 1-2 'main' teams either because they enjoy the way they play or because they play X faction in 40k and want to play it in Kill Team as well - see all of the disappointment from Tyranid/Death Guard/Talons/etc players whenever another Guard-adjacent team gets announced - many of which won't play something else unless their 40k faction happens to have two teams (Votann, Eldar, etc). I am worried about what this will do for the health of the game. 

 

Realising that you'll only really be able to play a team you love the look/playstyle of for a maximum of four years (if you buy it as soon as it comes out that is) I can see being really poisonous for the longevity of the game, which is ironic, because I'm sure the rotation was pitched as it being a way to ensure people keep buying and buying. "But GW isn't confiscating your models, you can still play with them!" I know that, but in practice this isn't the way the vast majority of people look at this. It's especially bad for Kill Team because the community is largely very competitive minded which means adhering to the Party Line is seen as very important.

 

Lil Timmy picking up a box of Kommandos and being told by the local players: "Oooo... that team will be illegal in a few months. Maybe grab one of these instead?" is not going to be a great conversation starter to be had with newbies, but one I suspect many people will be having as we approach the second season of KT'24.

 

The irony in all this is that I will probably be buying LESS teams, not more. If I know I'm only going to be getting use out of a team for a set period then I'm more likely to want to maximise my time with what is a temporary product, unlike prior seasons where I happily bought into various teams knowing I'd take them out for a spin at some point in the future anyway.

Well said.

I like the Vespid models. I don't like Tau. so outside of Killteam they have no use. I don't know... hard for me to buy into them right now.

[lansalt]

It's crazy that the CSM legionaries team is going to be deprecated in a year.

 

Besides the push for even more FOMO, this seems another case of GW not wanting people to use the same kits in more than one game, so they can track easily how they perform (plus product managers wanting to justify their goals/bonuses/promotions)

 

[Noserenda]

Actually i can understand the Kill team-team feeling a little worried about getting the chop with War cry and Underworlds both slowing down releases and rumoured to be on the block, which is a shame because war cry is a much better skirmish system than kill team but eh, skirmish games are always vulnerable because even long term players dont need to buy much.

And the Legends teams, even for a group thats happy to play against them, do they keep rules next time the edition shifts? Or do we once again see support drop to just the tournament legal teams?

[jaxom]

So it’s Magic: The Gathering, but with seasons and kill-teams instead of sets and  cards?

[INKS]

Do you paint and build your magic cards? :P

system wise, kinda.

[zulu.tango]

I main kill team, I play every week at my local and recently have begun traveling for tournaments. I have 7 teams on the chopping block that are fully built and painted, 3 of which have display boards. I'm still celebrating the announcement.

In order for the game to remain as competitive and fun as it currently is at the tournament/match level they need to trim teams. Not only to free up design space but to reduce the barrier of entry for new players. Maintaining balance across 33+ teams at the start of this season is a tall order, it'll be over 60 at the end of this upcoming edition if they maintain their release schedule. I would honestly hate to see kill team reach 40k levels of bloat where they try to balance rules for everyone's favorite pet faction/team/etc. 

The teams being "declassified" doesn't mean their unplayable in a casual setting, GW isn't going to kick in your door and steal your minis. It just means you can't take them to a "classified" tournament which from reading these posts, most of the loudest grousers aren't doing anyway. On average teams are ~60 bucks, getting 4 years of competitive play out of them is a bargain for virtually any other game system out there. 

[INKS]

 

I main kill team, I play every week at my local and recently have begun traveling for tournaments. I have 7 teams on the chopping block that are fully built and painted, 3 of which have display boards. I'm still celebrating the announcement.

In order for the game to remain as competitive and fun as it currently is at the tournament/match level they need to trim teams. Not only to free up design space but to reduce the barrier of entry for new players. Maintaining balance across 33+ teams at the start of this season is a tall order, it'll be over 60 at the end of this upcoming edition if they maintain their release schedule. I would honestly hate to see kill team reach 40k levels of bloat where they try to balance rules for everyone's favorite pet faction/team/etc. 

The teams being "declassified" doesn't mean their unplayable in a casual setting, GW isn't going to kick in your door and steal your minis. It just means you can't take them to a "classified" tournament which from reading these posts, most of the loudest grousers aren't doing anyway. On average teams are ~60 bucks, getting 4 years of competitive play out of them is a bargain for virtually any other game system out there. 

You are far better than I am.

I had Custodes. Which I knew wouldn't last to be fair.

and I have Gellerpox which I have 1 year left.

It's rare I get to play too many casual games outside the tournament setting and even then, I only get to play 1-2 tournaments a year anyways. So I guess I don't get to play much either way.

I fully understand and accept the balancing reasons. 

I do have a problem with them killing off Orks for tournaments only to then release new Orks to buy again, even though they will likely play differently than Kommando's. Just doesn't feel good.

For most players, this news doesn't effect them at all. They will casually keep on playing and 4 years for a team isn't horrible. You aren't wrong there. I just don't like this feeling of knowing when and if I buy a new team it's on a 4 year rail to death so to speak.

It's a little dramatic on my part and I can appreciate that.

It even is likely necessary for the game to stay competitive. And for them to make more teams and money.

If they had announced that they would also run unclassified tournaments at opens as well then I would feel a little better about it. But they are kind of leaving that for the community to deal with.

[zulu.tango]

I'm with you on declassified tournaments, hopefully in the next year they take a run at some sort of rules for it. In the coming years as more teams are added to that list I'm optimistic that if GW doesn't come up with something, someone else will. 
I'm just trying to take a big picture view of it. I straight up LOVE the game right now, and want the feeling to continue for YEARS. Even if I bought every team in the upcoming season I'd probably still be under-budget compared to a 40k tournament player, having to paint fewer models and getting to experience a broader scope of what this setting has to offer, with typically much better sculpts. All while still maintaining a huge variety of options for both casual and tournament play.  With the rules going online for free its all that much easier to "try before you buy" which lets consumers be more discerning on what teams they end up actually purchasing too. 

As for orks...I just finished converting orks into Felgore's despite already having painted the goats. GW can't keep me away from Orks, I don't care how many teams they ax heh

[Mandragola]

I don't think the article is especially clear. The diagram seems to imply that no current teams will last for more than 2 years but I don't think that's right. 

 

Anyway though, this feels like one of those painful but necessary things. It's annoying for me that I've just converted up a Starstriders team, and built some Neophytes, who now probably won't see much table time - if I even paint them. But it's clearly good for the game and that's a good thing overall.

 

EDIT: I'm definitely glad they're giving us a year's notice of teams phasing out. In the past we've had a lot less notice than that for other games. Now I can make informed choices on those starstriders and neophytes, for example.

Edited September 6 by Mandragola

[INKS]

A season is about 1 year long. Give or take. So all the teams in Season 1 have 1 year of tournament play left as classified.

season 2 teams, have at least 2 years left.

Vespids and Paratroops (I forget their names. lol) have about 4 years.

 

All teams currently have about 6 years total of casual support from GW. This means they will update rules and so on from time to time.

 

From a casual friendly play, you get about 6 years of rules support. From a tournament perspective from GW you get 4 years of support - for new teams (give or take)

There might be Unclassified tournaments run by your local store. Or Non GW tournaments. We don't know right now. As far as we do know. GW tournaments and "Opens" will be classified. And this is where the teams will rotate out over time. 

 

For new teams this isn't really a concern so much. 4 years isn't too bad.

However if you buy a Season 1 team today - then you only get 1 year left to play them in Official tournament or any tournament run as classified.

So my Gellerpox for example are a season 1 team. I have about 1 year left, unless I can find Unclassified tournaments to play them in.

 

A lot of people have said this is like Magic the Gathering. And it is to some extent. The difference is that Magic supports more than one format. They update the banned and restricted list for ALL formats. At some point GW won't update rules. Years from now, but it will eventually be a thing. Unless they change their mind. but I don't think so. It is not easy to maintain and update rules 6 years from now. Especially with X number of teams leaving a tournament scene and X number of teams being added to rotation. It's A LOT of rules. Which is slight different to how MTG is structured. 

 

[Emperor Ming]

 

Well, they just killed kill team or me.

Same, my group was already faltering in interest for kill team, dead now

 

Its only use for me now is to provide models for mainstream 40k.

[Lord Marshal]

The other issue with the 'four year' thing is that, technically, it will only be the start-of-season teams who get the full four years. Teams which drop at the very end of a season only really have three years plus a few months. That's also not accounting for the delay of separate teams releasing if you didn't manage to grab the FOMO box. Aren't we still waiting for Nightmare Claw and Mandrakes? 

 

Edited September 7 by Lord Marshal

[INKS]

Yeah, they do seem to be staggered a little. But we'll have to wait and see how future teams are really handled and that will be a while from now

[zulu.tango]

I'm inclined to believe that we're waiting on the box release of Nightlords and Mandrakes so that they can be released with the new Box/QR code to avoid having to immediately re-box their inventory after hivestorm drops. If I was a betting man I'd believe they go on pre-order at or shortly after the hivestorm release date.
 

[Antarius]

Sorry if I sound like an old man, but in my time specialist games were run with a “box game, one expansion and done” business mentality and most of those (well, at least the good ones) are still alive and kicking. I have a hard time seeing the problem (not as in “there’s no problem, because I don’t see it”, just that I honestly have a hard time grokking it), because from my perspective, GW doesn’t really release anything that lasts more than four years at present. But on the flipside, you really can (and should) still use your models and games, even if they’re not “up to date”.

[Subtleknife]

For me this has killed Killteam, I was planning to paint up a team. It takes me a very long time to paint due to time restrictions and I paint at a snails pace. If the team is going to be killed off every four or so years then I might as well invest my time into 40k where I will get more use of the models I paint. 

 

I think a much better way to have gone about this would be to have a core set of killteams that will be kept updated. Think intercessors for marines. A battle line squad that also can also be the start of a 40k army to act as a jumping point for that system too. Then have the more specialist teams rotate like they have proposed. 

Edited September 7 by Subtleknife

[TheArtilleryman]

The team is only killed off if you play tournaments. If not, the rules are there forever for you to use.

[firestorm40k]

Indeed, it's worth remembering that 12 months from now, you'll still be able to use the likes of Kommandoz, Veteran Guardsmen, Novitiates, etc in the following types of games:

 

- casual/friendly 

- Narrative (which is far more appealing to me than tournament play) 

- co-op/solo play (which, to be honest, are the modes that I'm going to mostly be playing when this game drops)

 

So there's still plenty of scope for using these teams. They'll still get rules updates from GW for another year after they're not tournament legal. And, knowing the somewhat cyclical nature of the hobby, it wouldn't surprise me that they're brought back in some way. Rules change, miniatures last forever 

[Kastor Krieg]

This announcement has just murdered the local interest in KT, as well as my motivation to finish painting my Kommandoz.

Thanks, James Workshop.

[Marshall Bretton]

People are also just assuming that after the 4 year cycle teams that drop off will be gone. Maybe that's just going to be their refresh cycles to update the teams? Or at least replace them with a similar team from the same faction.

 

I can't imagine the arbites and navy teams just being stopped in 3 years because there would be no point selling them for any other purpose. So maybe in 3 years they will update the box and re release with a new ruleset.

 

Likewise teams that do have a place on main stream 40k armies aren't going to just stop being produced