Deathwatch receiving a digital re-work

[Fire Golem]

 

It would be logical that mk7 followed the wave of mk6 for heresy.

 

I'd be more surprised at anyone who thought they WEREN'T going there.

Except MkIII followed MkVI, and there’s still II, IV and V to go which all make far more sense for that game. I could maybe see a MkVII kit for the heresy in like 6 years or something but it’s not gonna be anytime soon in that game. It was very rare in that setting. 

[ZeroWolf]

 

Except MkIII followed MkVI, and there’s still II, IV and V to go which all make far more sense for that game. I could maybe see a MkVII kit for the heresy in like 6 years or something but it’s not gonna be anytime soon in that game. It was very rare in that setting. 

I took them to mean that MKVII would end up there eventually (in my mind, as some sort of Scouring expansion and beyond) not that they were next out of the factory.

[Robbienw]

 

If only we were getting new MK7 sculpts 

 

I am excited 

[techsoldaten]

Honestly, I expect GW will continue the same track they've been on with Deathwatch since 8th. Wild power swings and rules changes that make any unit unreliable from the standpoint of a collector.

 

I started my Deathwatch army in 8th, saw it become almost useless in 9th, before the rules were taken away in 10th. It almost doesn't matter what this supplement does, no telling what to expect as year out.

 

 

 

 

[Halandaar]

 

It would be logical that mk7 followed the wave of mk6 for heresy.

 

I'd be more surprised at anyone who thought they WEREN'T going there.

 

Disagree about the order (because MKIII already came after MKVI), but absolutely agree it's inevitable MKVII will come eventually. Feels logical to me that once GW has bled everything it can from the Heresy setting, it'll move the clock forward to the Badab War and reap the sweet sweet profits a full do-over of MKVII will bring.

[phandaal]

 

I took them to mean that MKVII would end up there eventually (in my mind, as some sort of Scouring expansion and beyond) not that they were next out of the factory.

 

Badab War could be coming down the pipeline as well.

 

With GW reversing their decision to cut Deathwatch out, and all of these new armor marks getting upgraded sculpts, it may be a good time to be an enjoyer of eclectic combo armies like Deathwatch.

[Fire Golem]

I would like new MkVII. Been getting into the Badab War lately (it seems to be going round…) and thinking about doing a bunch of kill teams from different Badab chapters. 

[ThePenitentOne]

 

Question: Were killteams allowed in SM and Guard armies in the previous codex?

 

I get people would be upset over losing their faction, but it does seem very very ridiculous to have not been able to take Death Watch as an allied squad prior.

Grey Knights were bad enough in that regard. 

 

Neat to have both options I guess.

 

This is a very good point, because in 8th and 9th, you couldn't add a Kill Team to a larger Imperial Army, and it is a good thing to have that option.

 

But it's also worth pointing out that armies in 8th and 9th could include multiple detachments, with each getting access to all of it's own detachment rules, and since it was possible to have a detachment as small as 1 HQ + 1 Troops, effectively you COULD have a DW KT in a larger army without needing to add them as an Agent, and of course, retaining access to their detachment rules made them more powerful than they currently are when used as Agents.

[SvenIronhand]

I hope that Deathwatch players, who collected an army that represents that mass fielding of DW troopers on their lonesome, get to play their armies in the way they want. That's not an unreasonable ask. Hopefully, GW learns this lesson and doesn't do 'yoink' reversals for the foreseeable futuree. 

[Mogger351]

 

I hope that Deathwatch players, who collected an army that represents that mass fielding of DW troopers on their lonesome, get to play their armies in the way they want. That's not an unreasonable ask. Hopefully, GW learns this lesson and doesn't do 'yoink' reversals for the foreseeable futuree. 

I don't think they've learned their lesson, I don't think the lesson you're referring to is actually anything they overly care about in honesty. 

 

Maybe they need to stop diluting factions down and introducing tiny unsupported ranges that make little sense (Deathwatch, Harlequins, ynnari etc.), which is a lesson they seem to be learning, it's just that the slow gradual decline into obscure flavour unit hit deathwatch faster than it did Harlequins.

 

Ultimately GW got the DW players money and that might well be good enough for them. Likewise I wouldn't expect this digital amendment to bring back wargear or primaris kill teams. At best it'll be a way to integrate space marines better.

[ThePenitentOne]

 

I don't think they've learned their lesson, I don't think the lesson you're referring to is actually anything they overly care about in honesty. 

 

Maybe they need to stop diluting factions down and introducing tiny unsupported ranges that make little sense (Deathwatch, Harlequins, ynnari etc.), which is a lesson they seem to be learning, it's just that the slow gradual decline into obscure flavour unit hit deathwatch faster than it did Harlequins.

 

Ultimately GW got the DW players money and that might well be good enough for them. Likewise I wouldn't expect this digital amendment to bring back wargear or primaris kill teams. At best it'll be a way to integrate space marines better.

 

It's worth remembering that bespoke marine subfactions were once "unsupported ranges that make little sense."

 

These experiments are vital to the company. By proposing Ynarri as a way that all Eldar might become a single range, GW discovered (I think) that people don't actually want that, hence the stagnation. Ynarri STILL have value in terms of providing ways to combine eldar. 

 

And there's no need to "bring back" Primaris Kill teams, because the only people for whom these units have gone anywhere are those who refuse to accept Legends as GW intended them to be used. If I were GW, the whole update would be allowing Space marine units (except those not normally allowed to join DW) to join Ordo Xenos detachments; when an SM unit is added this way, it gains the DW Keyword. Simple. That's all they need to do to fix DW. (or at least, that's all they need to do to get DW back to 10th ed Index quality).

[apologist]

 

If only we were getting new MK7 sculpts 

 

This would make my day!

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

It's worth remembering that bespoke marine subfactions were once "unsupported ranges that make little sense."

 

These experiments are vital to the company. By proposing Ynarri as a way that all Eldar might become a single range, GW discovered (I think) that people don't actually want that, hence the stagnation. Ynarri STILL have value in terms of providing ways to combine eldar. 

 

And there's no need to "bring back" Primaris Kill teams, because the only people for whom these units have gone anywhere are those who refuse to accept Legends as GW intended them to be used. If I were GW, the whole update would be allowing Space marine units (except those not normally allowed to join DW) to join Ordo Xenos detachments; when an SM unit is added this way, it gains the DW Keyword. Simple. That's all they need to do to fix DW. (or at least, that's all they need to do to get DW back to 10th ed Index quality).

GW intended for Legends to be a place holder for stuff they don't want to work on, whether it's due to outdated models or models not existing. A Legends model or unit is effectively removed, and to pretend otherwise is really annoying. 

[Brother Tyler]

Focusing on the topic of this discussion - the digital release planned for December - I wouldn't expect too much. My interpretation of "digital release" is that we can expect rules to allow hobbyists to field full Deathwatch forces based on the units currently listed at the Warhammer site. The units that are true Deathwatch (Watch Captain Artemis, [Deathwatch] Veterans, Kill Team Cassius, Watch Master, and Corvus Blackstar) will be recognizable, with those that appear in the Imperial Agents codex simply repeating those rules or referring to them (Kill Team Cassis is the exception, with them likely being added); and all of the other non-Deathwatch units simply using the standard Space Marines rules, possibly with some Deathwatch "upgrade" to make them fit (a la a Chapter Tactic). This will be nothing more than a stop-gap to scratch the "full Deathwatch army" itch without giving players quite what they had before, but far more than they currently have.

 

Manage your expectations. Remember, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Practically speaking, wish-listing beyond the digital release should take place in a separate discussion in the Deathwatch forum.

[Tokugawa]

If HH sell very well and the plans process very well, its product line would cover stories in 32K~37K. Then you may see mk7/8 in new improved scale. 

 

However, the brand printed on boxes would be "Horus Heresy". Not 40K.

[Tokugawa]

If one player could convince him/her self that legend rules are "living" and available rules, then I can't have any sympathy no matter how bad GW did to his/her beloved faction/units/characters.

[chapter master 454]

Legends aren't a solution and have always been seen by players as "Executioner in all but name" for units. The list of units lost is long and while we can go through the list and make some reasonable cuts, a good few of them would of be execellent additions to the plastic range instead of making entirely new ones.

 

For deathwatch, ultimately they fall into what could be considered a dangerous zone as they could potientially being the "ultimate" divergent chapter, access too ALL possible unique units bar named characters while also still retaining their own unique additions. Only issue I have is often their units have been a corner stone of design aches in the fact that their mixed unit compositions have always lead to min-maxing to the extreme in all sorts of wacky ways with every edition having a completely new way that they are best fielded.

They used to LOVE running around with a single jump-pack guy with fly so they could fall back for free, then that got nuked and we moved onto the legendary bricks of Storm Shields and Storm Bolters with them basically being ultra-riot police at that point.

 

Would be nice to see them actually give them a cohesive design that follows them because as it stands, they look awesome and that is about it. Other than that, can't tell you much about them because they haven't been consistent between editions since inceptions from my memory.

So my wish list for their rules are simple:

Expand their unit range by simply bringing back various kill teams. These teams should specialise into a group of enemies in some form as I believe is their lore but for the rules, they should note benefits that work against all armies, with benefit vs. xenos being by merit of their rule leaning hard into that factions weakness. Things like maybe gaining attacks to their weapons per 5 models in the enemy unit they are targeting (effectively all their weapons gain blast benefit but it isn't blast. Any blast weapons would effectively have double blast), another unit has lethal hits by default but when targeting Vehicles or Monsters, they crit hit on 5+ (they know where to hit it). Again, give them boons that befit them. These are just spit ball ideas.

I don't think they need more detachments. Personally, I think it fits that they only have one detachment for their kind as it is the way they wage war and aren't about different detachments and grander strategies, they are about how they are equiped and how well they use their weapons.

Only way I could see maybe making their detachment more flavourful is maybe giving them a similar thing to Invasion Fleet where they get to pick one of a select set of options that each target a certain foe skew. Infantry, Vehicle/Monsters, a weird one that is funky (maybe it relates to benefits vs. targets on objectives). Make these guys akin to tyranids as they are like them in that they adapt and equip and prepare according to the foe. They are rarely if ever the ones being attacked, they are the attackers.

[Kallas]

 

If HH sell very well and the plans process very well, its product line would cover stories in 32K~37K. Then you may see mk7/8 in new improved scale. 

 

However, the brand printed on boxes would be "Horus Heresy". Not 40K.

And therein lies the inherent flaw: 40k is the flagship, by no small amount either. HH is a separate, less 'pushed' game (ie, it has fewer tie-ins: every video game, board game, bust, Joytoy, etc is all branded 40k) and has some baggage based on rules differences (eg, those who prefer the more modern style of 40k rules/dislike the older style of rules that HH uses), as well as perception (eg, that it's a Marine-on-Marine game, even though that's also applicable to 40k due to Marine popularity it still sticks more to HH because of perception).

 

It's similar to the whole range refresh issue we've seen for, well, decades. Eldar, for example, have languished in mostly untouched, ancient model form (hello, 30 year old Warp Spiders) - and the age old question is, do they not receive updates because they aren't popular, or are they not popular because they don't receive updates? A similar question will undoubtedly occur here: is HH not popular because it's not the flagship, or is it not the flagship because it's not as popular? So it stands to reason that any shortcoming of any particular sales can be attributed either way to fit whichever narrative GW wants, regardless of how it pans out - unless it is a riproaring success that is irrefutably popular (which, IMO, seems unlikely, given its secondary nature compared to 40k).

 

Edit to add: just as an extra note, HH Marines have a definite difference in appearance to 40k Firstborn. The Godwyn Bolter for one is a significant iconic piece that is not present at that time; as well as the styles of the various support weapons (eg, HH Missile Launchers are quite distinctive). Not that it's a bad style or anything, but it is a distinct style difference from 40k.

 

Definitely wobbling off of Deathwatch though, so I guess I'll stop there.

Edited October 8 by Kallas
Added a note about style difference between HH and 40k

[SvenIronhand]

 

I don't think they've learned their lesson, I don't think the lesson you're referring to is actually anything they overly care about in honesty. 

 

Maybe they need to stop diluting factions down and introducing tiny unsupported ranges that make little sense (Deathwatch, Harlequins, ynnari etc.), which is a lesson they seem to be learning, it's just that the slow gradual decline into obscure flavour unit hit deathwatch faster than it did Harlequins.

 

Ultimately GW got the DW players money and that might well be good enough for them. Likewise I wouldn't expect this digital amendment to bring back wargear or primaris kill teams. At best it'll be a way to integrate space marines better.

Glass half full, glass half empty, I feel. It'll be something, and that's a start. 

I agree with good old Marky Aurelius when it comes to one's reactions to things and their relationship to our judgements, as an aside. We have more power, I feel, over our thoughts and feelings than most people would give themselves credit (or blame) for. 

[DemonGSides]

 

If one player could convince him/her self that legend rules are "living" and available rules, then I can't have any sympathy no matter how bad GW did to his/her beloved faction/units/characters.

 

In real life I've never had anyone show any issue with using legends units. 

 

The conundrum over their usage is a purely manufactured concern by the online community. 

[Wormwoods]

 

In real life I've never had anyone show any issue with using legends units. 

 

The conundrum over their usage is a purely manufactured concern by the online community. 

 

I've found it to be a bit of a mixed bag. My gaming group is happy to include them - for now, that may change depending on how the edition progresses, and if anything ends up broken from a rules change that doesn't get carried over - but it's certainly had a cooling effect on actually fielding, or collecting anything Legends. I'm silly enough to be considering converting up some Legends Tau battlesuits, but I know there are people in my local community who have changed army plans, or abandoned them due to things getting legends-ed. 

 

I'm not a hard-liner about this, I don't hate the idea of 'units that exist for non-tournament play', but I do think some of the messaging around Legends both from GW and from the community is a problem. 

[DemonGSides]

 

 

I've found it to be a bit of a mixed bag. My gaming group is happy to include them - for now, that may change depending on how the edition progresses, and if anything ends up broken from a rules change that doesn't get carried over - but it's certainly had a cooling effect on actually fielding, or collecting anything Legends. I'm silly enough to be considering converting up some Legends Tau battlesuits, but I know there are people in my local community who have changed army plans, or abandoned them due to things getting legends-ed. 

 

I'm not a hard-liner about this, I don't hate the idea of 'units that exist for non-tournament play', but I do think some of the messaging around Legends both from GW and from the community is a problem. 

 

We've litigated this to death on these boards, but GWs messaging has been very clear about it.  It's the capitulation of local communities to a "Competitive or bust" mindset which is not something GW has control over.

 

The ideal is no demarcation, but if people can handle multiple MTG formats, they can probably handle Legends units in their games. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

 

 

Disagree about the order (because MKIII already came after MKVI), but absolutely agree it's inevitable MKVII will come eventually. Feels logical to me that once GW has bled everything it can from the Heresy setting, it'll move the clock forward to the Badab War and reap the sweet sweet profits a full do-over of MKVII will bring.

If GW had brains they would visit the Great Crusade and pump out models for factions present during that era.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

We've litigated this to death on these boards, but GWs messaging has been very clear about it.  It's the capitulation of local communities to a "Competitive or bust" mindset which is not something GW has control over.

 

The ideal is no demarcation, but if people can handle multiple MTG formats, they can probably handle Legends units in their games. 

TCGs are not Miniature Games though 

[Evil Eye]

It's worth noting that, as incompetent as GW can be at writing rules, and the Legends solution is far from ideal (though still better than units being totally deleted; see Tyranid Shrikes) I feel the community- or elements of the community, to be fair- is far more devoted to playing 40K "as GW intended" than GW intended, as counter-intuitive as it seems. GW has always made it clear that the rules are ultimately guidelines and that if you and your opponent/group prefer to play with adjustments or house rules, you absolutely should. The idea that the GWstapo are coming to haul you off to the Warhammer Gulag if you play "wrong" is absurd and I don't understand why so many people are determined to let GW dictate every detail of their toy soldier games when GW themselves aren't interested in doing that!