How to fix LI

[Griefbringer]

With all respect to James Hewitt's work on the Adeptus Titanicus rules, my understanding is that he left GW in 2017, at which time the Titanicus rules were complete but still unpublished (due to last minute decision to do the models in plastic, rather than resin as initially planned). Afterwards, there was quite a lot of supplementary material written and published, and eventually compiled into the three presently available supplement books (loyalist and traitor legions, and campaign compendium). I presume that those supplements were largely written after James had left, which would indicate that after he had left there were still people able to work on the subject without totally borking things. That said, it is 3-5 years since those Titanicus supplements were released. Then there is also the risk of unnecessary management interference or under-resourcing, which Hewitt (according to an interview by Goonhammer) did not have problems during Titanicus development, but suffered in later projects.

 

As for the August titan releases, my understanding is that the new weapon sprues were essentially plastic versions of weapons that had been available in resin form previously for a good time. So not particularly creative exercise in model-making, though still resources for the sprue design and tooling.

[apologist]

Fair points. while I'm concerned a bad update, whether caused by management interference or not, could kill a vibrant game dead – the Porphyrion and Asterius Knights are good examples of how even a single unit can really make Adeptus Titanicus creak, let alone fiddling with the core mechanics – I've no desire to be a doommonger. Overall, I would like to see a good update. There are lots of little quality of life improvements that can be made, and the mechanics for Knights in general really need to be rethought – and perhaps most importantly, a properly set-out rulebook and shiny new box would doubtless bring in lots of new players, which is needed to keep things fresh. Plus we'd probably get some cool new models :)

 

While I caution that these games are inherently simpler by virtue of being boardgames with fewer options, GW have form with more sensitive updates of properties like Space Hulk (still essentially Halliwell's original mechanics) and Blood Bowl, which are both lovely tight rulesets that have had fitting, considered additions made.

 

+++

 

On the August releases, they're a good example of how seemingly subtle additions can have surprisingly large consequences on such a narrow-scoped game. You're right that the Warlord Titan's weapon sprues were simply plastic updates of resin kits, but even something like that can affect things, simply by making them more easily available to people.

 

The Reaver Titan weapon sprue, meanwhile, includes two new arm weapons – and it's unclear whether they're intended to also be compatible with the Warbringer-Nemesis (WBN): the AT WBN terminal indicates not, but the Legions Imperialis FAQ is explicit in allowing the WBN to take the new arm weapons.

 

If they are, then that really changes the game for the WBN. It's currently stuck with mid-ranged or expensive arm weapons that aren't well-synergised with the big boomy carapace gun. If they can take the new Reaver weapons, it's suddenly a much more viable long-range support Titan.

 

Edited Friday at 08:26 AM by apologist

[Griefbringer]

1 hour ago, apologist said:

The Reaver Titan weapon sprue, meanwhile, includes two new arm weapons – and it's unclear whether they're intended to also be compatible with the Warbringer-Nemesis (WBN): the AT WBN terminal indicates not, but the Legions Imperialis FAQ is explicit in allowing the WBN to take the new arm weapons.

 

Thanks for pointing out that there are new weapons in the Reaver sprue (graviton obliterator and volkite annihilator), looks like I managed to confuse them with similar existing carapace weapons (graviton eradicator and volkite eradicator) [*]. Having these available as arm mount options provides more flexibility in kitting out Reavers.

 

As for the Warbringer-Nemesis issue, that is certainly a bit confusing. The box itself apparently has the appropriate weapon cards for using them with AT rules, but there is no FAQ/errata update addressing the Warbringer-Nemesis issue (and the upgrade sprue is also available separately). Meanwhile for LI there is the Liber Addenda for Liber Strategia, which addresses not only the Reaver and Warbringer issue, but also has minor weapon profile updates for the Warlord titans and even for Warhounds. Makes one wonder how the responsibilities for LI and AT updates are assigned.

 

[*] As for my confusion, I admit to being relatively new to the Heresy setting, and admit to sometimes being confused with all the novel armaments. Especially ones whose name contains one or more of the following terms: annihilator, defensor, destructor, disintegrator, dissipator, dissolutor, eradicator, exterminator, extripator, exsanguinator, imploder, obliterator, ruinator. I will hopefully get properly used to them after a while.

[Indy Techwisp]

IMO, LI needs something big to shake it up a bit.

The game got a bit of a kick when the Mechanicum were added (and Dark Mech) but the game has calcified again since then.

The marine tanks and titan weapon upgrades help, but aren't big enough to really shake the dust off.

[Griefbringer]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

IMO, LI needs something big to shake it up a bit.

 

I take it you mean new product releases, such as:

 

1.) Models for things that exist in bigger scale, but not yet in Epic scale (e.g. Custodes, Sisters of Silence, daemons).

2.) Models for Very Big Things that are known from the background, but would be impractical to do in anything larger than Epic scale (e.g. Emperor-class titans, Leviathan / Capitol Imperialis extra-super-heavy vehicles, Mechanicus ordinatus war engines etc.).

3.) Xenos forces (orks, eldar).

4.) Revised starter set to attract new players.

5.) Limited edition battle group boxes containing mixtures of existing sprues (e.g. Axiom titan maniple, knight household, Astartes mechanised infantry company, Solar auxilia armoured company etc.) with reasonable discounts.

 

Another way to shake things up game-wise could be also to finetune the rules with the existing stuff, before throwing in more new stuff. This makes me wonder if the original LI release had a bit of a mixed blessing with inheriting so much stuff from AT and AI that needed to be accommodated in the initial rulebook (8 titans with a whole lot of weapon options, 14 or 15 different knight loadouts, 12 aircraft variants).

 

Personally, I think that the present packacing paradigm of two identical sprues per box does not really do favours for all of the product range - some of which could benefit instead from being in boxes of one or three sprues (or maybe four or five for the astartes infantry sprue). The combat force sets are also designed in same way, providing two of each sprue except for the transport option (which is a single sprue).

Edited Friday at 02:24 PM by Griefbringer
Forgot to mention model inheritance issue.

[Indy Techwisp]

54 minutes ago, Griefbringer said:

<snip>

 

Both very big stuff and epic scale versions of stuff in HH would work.

 

A rules rebalance would help but I don't think it would hold enough interest outside the existing playerbase to "fix" LI's stagnation.

[Griefbringer]

Regarding possible releases, last year saw the Saturnine releases for larger scale heresy in summer and then for LI in December. This year has seen a fair bit of Custodes releases for large scale heresy (and these are also getting recycled to 40K). So if there will be upcoming LI releases, I would not be surprised to see a couple of Custodes sets popping up (plus a journal with their rules), consisting largely of downscaled versions of the plastic releases we have seen this year.

 

That said, yesterday there was a preview of some of the autumn releases for various ranges on Warhammer Community, and apparently neither LI nor AT got a mention. So do not hold your breath for any major releases in the next couple of months.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, Griefbringer said:

That said, yesterday there was a preview of some of the autumn releases for various ranges on Warhammer Community, and apparently neither LI nor AT got a mention. So do not hold your breath for any major releases in the next couple of months.

 

Not to mention that the Custodes there were pulling double duty as the 40k part of the stream on top.

 

If LI get anything new, I'm assuming it'll be previewed in Winter for next year.

[Griefbringer]

Checking the commentary on the B&C news section about the yesterdays reveals, it seems that the "Custodes versus daemons" is perceived as the current flavour for the larger scale Horus Heresy supplements. At least it is something else than astartes for a while, though by my understanding the daemons are not really getting new models (there being a fair number of those in existing ranges).

 

If there was any attention paid to the Aeronautica Imperialis, there could also be an opportunity to release a plastic epic scale model for the Custodes Ares gunship, which apparently has rules for it in the HH version of AI. There is also another Custodes aircraft (Orion dropship), which by my understanding does not have AI rules.

 

(Speaking of aircraft, I realised that there is an actual resin Forge World model for large-scale Sokar Stormbird, which is rather large and expensive - even pricier than a large scale Reaver titan. If somebody would make a new Big Model Thingy in epic scale, that could be a potential candidate. Maybe not the most exciting thing gaming wise, when you already have Thunderhawk available, but potentially interesting to modellers, not to mention collectors with OCD.)

[apologist]

The familiar daemons of the four Great Powers are being wedged into the HH – and quite swiftly, with Tzeentch and Slaanesh rules appearing in quick succession.

 

A new daemon force in LI is a good shout for an expansion in LI, as it’s a whole new faction. Likewise Talons of the Emperor; who are a good counter to them.

 

Radio silence at the preview may be cause for dismay, or it may be simply keeping the powder dry for a bigger reveal later.

[Griefbringer]

Checking back, the titan weapon news were included as part of the Big Summer Reveal back in June - at which time they were primarily referred to as LI release (though the news item mentioned that also AT cards will be included).

 

Prospect of daemons in LI does not get me particularly excited when it comes to gameplay, since they tend to be tactically rather mono-dimensional (Charge!), with the possible exception of some Tzeentch. However, they could provide an opportunity to add extra flavour and units that are clearly Traitor in character and rules (currently only  Dark Mechanicus stalkers). Furthermore, it would not take many sprues to cover the main types of daemons (one sprue per major deity could go long way).

 

Custodes is also quite close combat orientated force, but they also have shootier stuff like grav tanks. And again inclusion of Custodes ally force would help to bring some flavour and show clearly Loyalist unit (IIRC only psi-titan is currently loyalist only). Furthermore, the main ground units of Custodes could probably be covered by four sprues (infantry, jetbikes/speeders, grav carriers, grav tanks with choice of turrets).

[Nagashsnee]

Burn me as a witch if you must. but AT needs to make the jump to 40k, it needs  a new edition with a Imp VS Ork box, the rules are generally fine, fix the issues here and there and just push out a extra faction or two. 

 

HH worked good to relaunch the game as it lowered the need to invest in models, but its gone as far as it can, and now its time for Orks, Nids and Eldar to join the fun. 

 

 

LI i still believe needs to be re designed from the ground up, it remains utterly problematic to play for a GIANT host of reasons. The time to try and ductape the current product is over, they need a hail mary re launch. 

[Griefbringer]

17 minutes ago, Nagashsnee said:

AT needs to make the jump to 40k, it needs  a new edition with a Imp VS Ork box, the rules are generally fine, fix the issues here and there and just push out a extra faction or two. 

 

Ork gargants and Eldar titan-analogues can be introduced into AT without needing to move the game away from the 30K milieu - purgation of systems from Orks was still in progress as the Heresy broke out, and Eldar meddled in various fights during the Heresy ("We fight against Horus, not for your Emperor"). And you do have always the excuse of fighting them also in the immediate pre/post-heresy timeline.

 

[Admittedly the same cannot be done with some other factions like Tyranids (out of galaxy), Tau (not developed) or Necrons (asleep).]

 

Problem with moving AT to 40K setting is that people with 30K traitor forces may start feeling a bit out of place. Fielding your 30K loyalist titans as 40K loyalist titans would not look too out of place, but traitor titans in 40K should look rather different after spending ten millennia brooding in the Eye of Terror. Admittedly, a full chaos upgrade sprue for existing titan kits (with heads, carapaces, weapons, tentacles, spiky gubbins etc.) might be received with interest by many. Though there could be space even for a less extreme "corrupted traitor titan" upgrade sprue in the 30K environment.

[Nagashsnee]

36 minutes ago, Griefbringer said:

Problem with moving AT to 40K setting is that people with 30K traitor forces may start feeling a bit out of place. Fielding your 30K loyalist titans as 40K loyalist titans would not look too out of place, but traitor titans in 40K should look rather different after spending ten millennia brooding in the Eye of Terror. Admittedly, a full chaos upgrade sprue for existing titan kits (with heads, carapaces, weapons, tentacles, spiky gubbins etc.) might be received with interest by many. Though there could be space even for a less extreme "corrupted traitor titan" upgrade sprue in the 30K environment.

40k is to allow nids and tie in the various books they will release for the minis into existing narative. Its also to lure new players who DONT play HH. There is nothing to gain by limiting it to 30k and pretending the xenos are all crusade era foes (you can do that anyhow with 40k).

 

AT  rules should NOT be tied to any era, there is no need for it. It doesnt help in any way anymore, it just restricts. Have the core rule be Adeptus Titanicus and have the lore section go thru famous battles/action in the lore for ANY era. Then just have specific books focus on specific events and have the missions based on specific events limit forces. Otherwise the rules should be totally era agnostic and you should be able to field any force vs any other. Chaos and corrupted titan rules already exist all that missing is models and you can always add more.   Traitor legions have nothing to fear, you would release the second ed book of traitor titan legions, and at the start just clarify its for traitor legion thru the millenia, you then add any 40k specific ones you want.

 

AT is not 40k. it doesnt have a ongoing narative. First ed focussed on the period of the HH, second on could focuss on any other period to allow orks and eldar and then drop a nid book focussing on a different period/warzone.

 

 

 

Nothing has really changed in the lore anyhow tech wise.  AT needs fresh energy and minis, and it needs fresh players, its insane that orks, eldar and nids players read their books and play their games but cant play their titans.

 

Fix and clarify the core rules (they are mostly fine) and drop seccond with new races and source books involving them. Again if you do just orks and one other to start with the investment would not be that big. 

Edited 20 hours ago by Nagashsnee

[Indy Techwisp]

The problem with moving AT to 40k is that realistically not that many factions actually have titan scale vehicles.

Hell, a lot don't even have Knight scale vehicles.

 

Moving LI to 40k would be more doable but you'd need to fix the balance issues with Infantry otherwise you just port the same problems across.

[Nagashsnee]

47 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

The problem with moving AT to 40k is that realistically not that many factions actually have titan scale vehicles.

Hell, a lot don't even have Knight scale vehicles.

 

Moving LI to 40k would be more doable but you'd need to fix the balance issues with Infantry otherwise you just port the same problems across.

 

Currently there is 1 faction (2 is you want to argue traitors are a faction). Going from 1 to 4 would be huge. This is not about representing every army in 40k, its about evolving AT.  Not every 40k faction needs to be in every subgame. 

 

I would not move LI to 40k. They cant handle writing rules for 30k last thing you want is more factions. LI needs to be fixed to a playable and solid level before any extra things are added.

 

AT needs to expand, LI needs to be saved. They have very different paths. 

Edited 18 hours ago by Nagashsnee

[Griefbringer]

Nagashsnee, I may have misunderstood your original point. If you are advocating for expanding the AT into a multi-millennial game, that would cover Big Stompy Thing battles from Great Crusade to Tyranid Wars (and everything in between), then I would be very positive about that. Naturally assuming that it is done properly and the different factions have appropriate flavour, e.g. with rules for shields and repairs adjusted appropriately for Ork gargants, Eldar titan-analogues and Tyranid big critters.

 

However, regarding game versions, I would like to point out that the original Adeptus Titanicus rules came out in 1988, and were actually the first ever rules set specifically in Horus Heresy. The current Adeptus Titanicus (also set in Horus Heresy) was released in 2018. These are usually referred to as AT88 and AT18 in short, rather than as first and second edition (as they are essentially rather separate games based on same idea, rather part of direct evolution). If I understand correctly, somewhere in between (circa 2005) Specialist Games were working on yet another ruleset called Adeptus Titanicus - apparently there was a playtest version made available, but no actual commercial release.

 

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As for the issue of having different rulesets for covering identical things in different periods, that non-epic Warhammer: Horus Heresy (*) game seems to be having a bit of an identity crisis in its relationship to the main WH40K ruleset (from which it developed). Apparently you can now use the same Custodes models in both 30K and 40K settings. And you can do the same with models for Tzeentch daemons (and soon Slaanesh daemons). But there are still two different core rulesets for pitting those Custodes and Daemons against each other, depending on whether they meet around year 30000 or year 41000. Though this is maybe a topic for another section of this forum.

 

(*) Variously referred by GW as either Horus Heresy, Warhammer: Horus Heresy or Warhammer: Horus Heresy - Age of Darkness.

 

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Edit: then there is the very bizarre case of Aeronautica Imperialis, which started as a multi-faction 40K game with xenos, but was then reduced to a two faction 30K game (marines and navy) without xenos. And while the rulebook is still available on GW website, it is rather difficult to find.

Edited 17 hours ago by Griefbringer

[Nagashsnee]

16 hours ago, Griefbringer said:

If you are advocating for expanding the AT into a multi-millennial game, that would cover Big Stompy Thing battles from Great Crusade to Tyranid Wars (and everything in between), then I would be very positive about that. Naturally assuming that it is done properly and the different factions have appropriate flavour, e.g. with rules for shields and repairs adjusted appropriately for Ork gargants, Eldar titan-analogues and Tyranid big critters.

 

 

Thats exactly what i am advocating, AT doesnt really gain anything by being locked to 30k, it only loses, and for me its the one of the few GW games that is viable to have in a fluid timeframe so to speak. 

 

You get your core rules, and factions rules, and its up to you if you want to use the expansion books and re create Armagedon, or Beta Gammon or the 4th Tyranic war. There is no reason to lock the game to any one of these time periods rules wise. And model wise they are all usable at all periods, as even nids can just stand is as Crusade era mega aracnids or whatever. 

 

I 100% that the factions should feel and play different, and by expanding the total number by a reasonable degree (3 for me, orks, eldar and nids) it should be very feasible to balance the rulesets. 

 

I just dont want to see LI drag AT down the drain with it. AT is a great game and with just a tiny bit of investment by GW could have years of life ahead of it.