Random Nemesis Claw unit download

[Indy Techwisp]

As far as I can see this wasn't announced anywhere, but you can download a Night Lords unit for CSM:

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_nemesis_claw_datasheet_card-hbjsmqk8aw-5gdhkm3hzf.pdf

Edited November 20 by Indy Techwisp

[gaurdian31]

So they don't seem to be under legends, instead under other rules so they would be tournament legal then?

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, gaurdian31 said:

So they don't seem to be under legends, instead under other rules so they would be tournament legal then?

They're in the normal units section of the app, so this is just a brand new legal unit, like the updated Vespid Stingwings and the Tempestus Aquillions were.

(This is also how the Traitor Guard, Traitor Enforcer and Fellgor Ravagers were added to CSM in 9th ed)

[redmapa]

This is the kind of stuff GW could do with just upgrade kits to give the vanilla chapters /legions some flavor in the form of a generic unit with a spin. So good job GW.

 

These guys look fun, if I ever jump into CSM it's gonna be Night Lords.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Interesting.  I like the voice eater, though only affecting infantry you're in combat with does reduce the utility a little bit.

 

Would an attached character gain the unit's Stealth ability?  I assume yes, and if so, sticking a Sorcerer with them lets you stack hit debuffs to counter any hit buffs an enemy may have.

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Interesting.  I like the voice eater, though only affecting infantry you're in combat with does reduce the utility a little bit.

 

Would an attached character gain the unit's Stealth ability?  I assume yes, and if so, sticking a Sorcerer with them lets you stack hit debuffs to counter any hit buffs an enemy may have.

 

As far as I'm aware, attaching a character would remove the stealth Keyword since the whole unit needs the Keyword for it to work (Same As Deep Strike and Infiltrate)

[crimsondave]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

They're in the normal units section of the app, so this is just a brand new legal unit, like the updated Vespid Stingwings and the Tempestus Aquillions were.

(This is also how the Traitor Guard, Traitor Enforcer and Fellgor Ravagers were added to CSM in 9th ed)

Pardon my ignorance but I don’t see it on the app.  I’m looking under data sheets in the CSM codex.  Is that where you mean?

[Indy Techwisp]

20 minutes ago, crimsondave said:

Pardon my ignorance but I don’t see it on the app.  I’m looking under data sheets in the CSM codex.  Is that where you mean?

 

Make sure the app is updated to the latest version.
They're not a Battleline unit, so they should be under the "Other Units" section.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Interesting.  I like the voice eater, though only affecting infantry you're in combat with does reduce the utility a little bit.

 

Would an attached character gain the unit's Stealth ability?  I assume yes, and if so, sticking a Sorcerer with them lets you stack hit debuffs to counter any hit buffs an enemy may have.

They don't confer stealth, which is part of why the unit isn't very good. They have little synergy with characters, they don't get Lascannon access at 5 dudes (actually they don't in general) and I'd rather have two Power Fists in a squad with two Chainswords vs the melee options these guys get. Also these guys have worse OS. 

 

If they came down in price maybe they could be disruptive with the anti-Strat rule, but Cypher has a similar effect for cheaper. 

[crimsondave]

5 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Make sure the app is updated to the latest version.
They're not a Battleline unit, so they should be under the "Other Units" section.

Thanks.  That did it.

[AutumnEffect]

6 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Would an attached character gain the unit's Stealth ability?  I assume yes, and if so, sticking a Sorcerer with them lets you stack hit debuffs to counter any hit buffs an enemy may have.

 

I would give them a Master of Executions.
With him the unit is getting +1 to hit and re-rolls to hit on units under starting strength as well as +1 to wound and re-roll wounds on units below half strength.
That'll blender a lot of stuff. It also bumps the Executioner's Strength 7 axe up with +1 to wound which gives it the breakpoints it needs.

They will lose stealth but I'd take a full squad at that point and just load them in a rhino. Vroom-vroom.

Edited November 21 by AutumnEffect

[HeadlessCross]

22 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I would give them a Master of Executions.
With him the unit is getting +1 to hit and re-rolls to hit on units under starting strength as well as +1 to wound and re-roll wounds on units below half strength.
That'll blender a lot of stuff. It also bumps the Executioner's Strength 7 axe up with +1 to wound which gives it the breakpoints it needs.

They will lose stealth but I'd take a full squad at that point and just load them in a rhino. Vroom-vroom.

It's a pretty redundant effect though. Yeah they're definitely gonna hit, but their wounding is already pretty bad regardless. Remember, they're paying for that Stealth to begin with. 

[AutumnEffect]

45 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's a pretty redundant effect though. Yeah they're definitely gonna hit, but their wounding is already pretty bad regardless. Remember, they're paying for that Stealth to begin with. 

 

They are complimentary, not redundant.

Without re-rolls, a full squad with all the fixings will do 13.46 wounds to a Space Marine profile.
(6.67 from chainswords, 2.78 from power fist, 1.85 from accursed weapon, 2.16 from paired accursed weapons.)

With re-rolls, a full squad with all the fixings will do 19.19 wounds to a Space Marine profile.
(10.37 from chainswords, 3.78 from power fist, 2.52 from accursed weapon and paired accursed weapons each.)

42% increase in output, which is a lot.
The stealth bonus is cute but if you have to choose between getting shot at -1 to hit or not getting shot at all because you are in a transport I'd just take the transport. This is unequivocally a melee unit and Stealth on a melee unit is only ever a gimmick since you don't get the benefit in melee  and trying to foot-slog your way into melee is sub-optimal. It'll only come into play if you get caught out between combats.

Edited November 21 by AutumnEffect

[HeadlessCross]

36 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

They are complimentary, not redundant.

Without re-rolls, a full squad with all the fixings will do 13.46 wounds to a Space Marine profile.
(6.67 from chainswords, 2.78 from power fist, 1.85 from accursed weapon, 2.16 from paired accursed weapons.)

With re-rolls, a full squad with all the fixings will do 19.19 wounds to a Space Marine profile.
(10.37 from chainswords, 3.78 from power fist, 2.52 from accursed weapon and paired accursed weapons each.)

42% increase in output, which is a lot.
The stealth bonus is cute but if you have to choose between getting shot at -1 to hit or not getting shot at all because you are in a transport I'd just take the transport.

But the MoE still gives benefits to regular Legionaires, which are a good amount cheaper. 

 

You're also talking about a full squad, which is 220 points. A full squad of Chosen is only 30 points more if you really wanted to go that route. 

[AutumnEffect]

10 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

But the MoE still gives benefits to regular Legionaires, which are a good amount cheaper. 

 

You're also talking about a full squad, which is 220 points. A full squad of Chosen is only 30 points more if you really wanted to go that route. 

 

A full squad is 190, they give you a tax break. So 20 points over a Legionnaire squad. A full squad of Chosen would be 60 more.

The Legionnaires don't give anything back to the MoE. Going from Strength 7 to Stength 7 and +1 to wound is really, really nice. He's now wounding toughness 4, 5 and 6 on a 2+. 

The Nemesis Claws are just better melee Legionnaires with good synergy on a MoE. They aren't going to be rocking any worlds and they are not a replacement for Legionnaires which I think is a good thing. A very take-em or leave-em unit.

Edited November 21 by AutumnEffect

[Casual Heresy]

I like the unit. Very flavourful and could be used for some very interesting gameplay. I could easily see and squad or more of these guys showing up in a variety of aggressive and in your face CSM lists. Might even write one myself just to see if I could make something I'd want to play with them as a central feature.

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

A full squad is 190, they give you a tax break. So 20 points over a Legionnaire squad. A full squad of Chosen would be 60 more.

The Legionnaires don't give anything back to the MoE. Going from Strength 7 to Stength 7 and +1 to wound is really, really nice. He's now wounding toughness 4, 5 and 6 on a 2+. 

The Nemesis Claws are just better melee Legionnaires with good synergy on a MoE. They aren't going to be rocking any worlds and they are not a replacement for Legionnaires which I think is a good thing. A very take-em or leave-em unit.

So a full squad is 190, which is 10 points more than two 5 man Legionaire squads. 10 points less gives 4 Power Fists, 4 Chainswords, and 2 Lascannons. That's absolutely better than 1 Special Weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon, 4 random profiles, and then Chainswords. 

[Casual Heresy]

9 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

So a full squad is 190, which is 10 points more than two 5 man Legionaire squads. 10 points less gives 4 Power Fists, 4 Chainswords, and 2 Lascannons. That's absolutely better than 1 Special Weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon, 4 random profiles, and then Chainswords. 

 

In terms of raw damage output, your may be right. But the game isn't just about raw damage output is it? Look at units like Aquilons, Scouts and myriad others. Units like that aren't dishing out the same punishment as equivalent units within their factions army list. But they are giving you abilities that can help win games or disrupt your opponents ability to do damage. So for 190 points I'd say a close range unit that can switch off a units ability to use stratagems then shank them is great.

 

Are they a replacement for Legionaires? Of course not. But they are a new an interesting tool which should be judged on that basis. I'm willing to bet competitive players will show us they're under costed very soon.

[HeadlessCross]

12 minutes ago, Casual Heresy said:

 

In terms of raw damage output, your may be right. But the game isn't just about raw damage output is it? Look at units like Aquilons, Scouts and myriad others. Units like that aren't dishing out the same punishment as equivalent units within their factions army list. But they are giving you abilities that can help win games or disrupt your opponents ability to do damage. So for 190 points I'd say a close range unit that can switch off a units ability to use stratagems then shank them is great.

 

Are they a replacement for Legionaires? Of course not. But they are a new an interesting tool which should be judged on that basis. I'm willing to bet competitive players will show us they're under costed very soon.

But as I stated earlier, I can run Cypher to get a similar effect. They're really not a new tool to use. They give a utility that isn't actually needed in the end. The infantry that would be scared of their combat are infantry I wouldn't want to spend Strats on to begin with, and infantry that I want to spend Strats on are absolutely not going to be scared of their combat ability. 

 

At least Cypher has survivability and is cheaper. 

[AutumnEffect]

14 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

So a full squad is 190, which is 10 points more than two 5 man Legionaire squads. 10 points less gives 4 Power Fists, 4 Chainswords, and 2 Lascannons. That's absolutely better than 1 Special Weapon, 1 Heavy Weapon, 4 random profiles, and then Chainswords. 

 

The fact a full squad is only 10 points more than an equal number of Legionnaires actually sells them more to me considering their special rules. 

I'm also not sure what you mean by 'better'.

Better at what? 
The Nemesis Claws would outperform them in melee. Two lascannons aren't really anything to write home about. The Legionnaires in this scenario would only be 'better' at holding two objective markers.

 

Two 5 model Legionnaire squads are going to have a very different job anyway compared to a go-deep full 10 model Nemesis Claw unit. Comparing the total of the two squads to the total of the singular Nemesis Claw unit is also misleading unless you plan on keeping the 5 model units so close together they would operate as one, and in that case you really would be better off taking the Nemesis Claw.

 

If we want to compare minimum sized objective holder squads, then for 20 points more you could get on the Nemisis Claws: A Power Fist, a Plasma Gun, a Heavy Bolter and then a Chainglaive (a Power Fist sidegrade) and Paired Accursed weapons instead of just chainswords from your example from the Legionnaires. They would have Stealth and their special rule would apply in shooting as well as melee while the Legionnaires bonuses to wound only apply in melee.

 

Yeah they cost more than the Legionnaires because if they didn't they would put them out of a job. They have no unit-size requirements to take any of their equipment so you can load a minimum squad for bear if you want, they have solid special rules and the 'random' melee weapons are really solid. Having them be the same point cost as Legionnaires would be absurd.

 

As far as the argument that their melee attacks aren't up to snuff, against a unit of Terminators that have taken 1 wound they will do on average 9 wounds to them:
2.56 from chainswords, 1.94 from Power Fist, 2.07 from Chainglave, 1.46 from Paired Accursed Weapons and .97 from the Accursed Weapon.
If the Terminators are under half that becomes 14.3 wounds, which would be enough to liquidate almost 5 Terminators in a single round, that is to say, every other Terminator remaining in the squad.

The two Legionnaire squads aren't going to do that.

 

The Nemesis Claws aren't meant to replace Legionnaires, as I said. They are mediocre. 7.5 out of 10.
I don't know why you want to die on the hill that they are bad.

 

Edited November 22 by AutumnEffect

[Antarius]

One of the biggest mysteries of the hobby is that people always complain about new units being deliberately overpowered to “force” us to buy them, but then, if a new unit isn’t obviously better than the existing units it’s immediately labelled “useless”.

 

Why not just use them if you think it’s a cool concept for a unit and not use them, if you don’t? I’ve played Night Lords, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Iron Warriors at different points in time and I’ve never really felt that their conceptually fitting units were dependent on some “objective” power level in order to be cool (and useful). It’s about changing your playing style to fit the army concept, not about every army needing to fit your conception of what is most powerful.